Mary-Sue?

[Cassandra Voorhees]

So I've been looking around at RPs, guilds, and such and I have come across this one requirement that some people ask. That is, a character cannot be "mary-sue."

I looked up that term a while back and I'm google-ing it again now. And I wanted to ask you guys what you thought of this.


What does being "mary-sue" mean to you?

Have you ever been accused of writing a "mary-sue" character?

Should it even be something that other people should judge writing upon? i.e. Is it fair to judge a character for being "mary-sue"?


In one instance where the "mary-sue" quality was being judged, I was linked to a site that asks you a bunch of questions about your character and rates it for you. Once you've completed the questionnaire, you get a score and a spectrum as well as a little blurb stating that the test is not absolute and you can have a character that scores badly but is not "mary-sue."


My question then is: How can you decided when your character is not "mary-sue"?


Personally, I have never been accused of it but I can imagine how much it sucks when you are. I say, if you want to criticize a character, do it in a way that doesn't use such a wide sweeping term.  

[OldBlueGenes]

Heh.

Get ready for a lot of words... here I go.

To me, a Mary Sue is a completely self-indulgent character. One which sacrifices the story, plot, and atmosphere of the world in order to be what just "feels good" to the writer. A character that is either too badass, too cutesy, to tragic, too noble, too powerful, or too much like the author. Its the overuse of any of the perfectly decent writing tools used to make a character compelling, without the balance of realism which makes the character believable. True mary-sues are those annoying characters. The ones that make you grind your teeth because they are just too.... you know? Like the writers trying to hard to make you like them.

That said, I have seen some characters that might fall under the strictest guidelines of Mary-Suedom done in an entertaining manner. It wasn't annoying at all.

In particular, I take issue with the rules that do not allow you to have to character resemble yourself. I mean, Jo from the book Little Women would technically be a Mary Sue, wouldn't it? Jo is pretty obviously based on the Ms. Alcott herself, which violates that rule. Any character you make comes from yourself and your life experiences, so its GOING to be a part of you, right? I don't know, maybe I'm misinterpreting the rule.

I KNOW I have made a few Mary-Sues in roleplays. However, I have never had anyone complain about them. That little test you mentioned? I think every character I have ever made falls into Mary Sue according to them. =_= Psh... maybe that means I'm just sucky like that.  

[Cassandra Voorhees]

Ahh. So not only does being "mary-sue" require certain factors to be met, like being too much of X trait, but it also depends on the intention of the writer. I think that's something I can also agree to, as there are, as you've said, people who purposefully and knowingly create a mary-sue.

And yeah. You're totally right when you say that every character is going to resemble you in some way. For me, it helps create more realistic scenarios because I can ask myself "if I were X what would I do?"

In that case, I kind of see mary-sues as a tool. Granted, a not very effective tool since many people seem to dislike them, but a tool nonetheless that can help build something fantastic.

It really depends on how people define a mary-sue, doesn't it? Because there definitely are annoying characters who can do everything or can do nothing and whine about it. Now those are something I can't agree with.  

[Monochromatism]

I totally disagree in that one willingly makes a Mary-Sue. Sometimes, with say, a new writer, it's more "I want to make a great hero." They don't want to make them bad, they want to make them... someone to look up to, someone they think everyone could like. Or, they want to draw out a fantasy for themselves. So you might say they're willingly doing that, or you might say that since they're unaware they are creating a "mary-sue", they're just creating what they see as a "cool character".

So I guess it depends on how you take it.

Personally, I've got a friend who tests every character I and she makes. I usually get very low ratings on those tests. I know she challenges me often, and I'm not really peeved about it, since I know it's in all good intention, and I strongly dislike Mary Sues.

I only see Mary Sues as good tools if they're A) not a big plot character or B) in a highly comedic novel.

If you've seen Dr. Horrible, you know of Penny. To me, she is rather Sue-ish. However, I still love the show/movie, and I don't mind it. Mostly since the plot isn't entirely centered on "Penny saves the day" and "Everybody loves Penny" (well, it sort of does, but in a way that makes sense and has less to do with a Sue-ness).

As long as you've got a character with plenty of faults (but still some good points, please) that don't add to they're "Sue" (clumsiness that just makes them oh so fragile and lovable- Bella Swan), I'd say you're doing okay. A character that has their pitfalls, (liar that isn't easily forgiven, mildly aggressive) that allows some characters to love them and some to hate them, and some not to really care either way. Nothing that can crush all their enemies or help all their friends miraculously without detriment. Nothing "amazing" (IQ of 300).  

[Cassandra Voorhees]

Yeah. I see what you mean with newer writers which is why this mary-sue phenomenon is on my mind. I don't have the experience as veteran writers do, nor have I completed a post-secondary course focusing on aspects of writing. What guides my characters is, I guess you could say, my intuition. If something doesn't feel right, I don't do it because I know how frustrating dealing with godmod types are.

Ah. The genius character. That one gets me all the time. We know that there are people with very high IQs out there; we know it is possible. I wonder if the fear of creating mary-sues stops some from writing about these people.

Hmm. I think, rather than saying that I hate "mary-sues," I dislike characters that change and react in unrealistic ways. Which fits well with what you brought up with the absolute lack of "pitfalls" or absolute lack of "good traits." Because depending on the scenarios a character encounters, maybe they're just very lucky to only face off against problems they know how to deal with (highly unlikely, but always a possibility).  

[Neko-mancer Supreme]

Im not going to bore you to death with a novel. Not that you guys bored me to death.. you didnt! honest!

to me this is a mary sue:

When a character is just... cookie cutter. Mary and Gary Sues are just cookie cutter characters that cannot make it past a certain point of development, when the creator simply takes an idea and sticks with it. They do not change, they do not grow, a character should have a piece of your soul in it, and many of my characters have a certain part of me in them, even Sheerona. I have never been in an arranged marriage, but thats why i made her different then the others, i didnt want to just be another rich girl forced into marrying someone, i wanted a character that others could look to and figure 'hey, lets do this/that/whatever' and help EVERYONE grow.

If you cannot allow your character to grow and find its own place, then.. i feel its not much of a character, and it is just another sad sack pooped out into the world because someone doesnt give a damn. Thats why they create Mary and Gary's... they just dont give a damn.


Okay, i totally lied.. i realize now that i wrote a novel even after i said i wouldnt >< bugger all!  

[Cassandra Voorhees]

Ehh~ But I like reading people's thoughts, even if they write a novel.

I think I get what you mean by "cookie cutter." Sometimes characters feel too perfect and too predictable (and not in a purposeful way) because they weren't molded from the writer's own hands. And I think the whole concept of a mary-sue is that a character is so set in stone that there's no room for creativity to make the character unique. That's what I got from your post, anyway. xD

Ah. But static characters have their own appeal too. I don't think one necessarily has to change over the course of a story to be interesting. Though, they do have to be believable and thought-out.

I like how you put it. How people use mary-sues because they don't bother to think deeply. Hmm~  

[Dadarian11]

Here is my experience with a party of Mary-Sue's that should demonstrate exactly the idea of what one is.

I was a middle aged man who'd lost his children a little after the outbreak of a zombie infection (Post apocalyptic zombie RP) After having my barricaded house broken into and my family eaten, me escaping only by providence of falling off the second floor roof and being snagged in a tree by my clothes, i made my way into a city and lived in the rafters of a cereal warehouse. My note-able abilities were climbing since i did mountain climbing, carpentry, as a hobby, and basic firearms, again as a hobby. Completely reasonable.

The fellow RPers were diverse, but all Mary Sue to be sure.
They were all exceptionally pretty/handsome. Taller than average. Had exotic eye colors. The Trench-coater varieties carried a personal armory with them and enough ammo to fuel a war in Africa. One in particular being a Russian tank commander (in Washington DC) with her contingent of tanks and a convoy. The other types were the valley girl variety. Oblivious to the nature of the situation, overly emotional and demanding, needing rescuing constantly from the most attractive trench-coater, and immediately falling in love at any mention of reciprocation from ANY character.

Being sickened with it all i just had my character walk into another room after having a break down remembering his lost family and had him shoot himself in the head.

Ultimately I feel that Mary-Sue's can be both accidental, and purposeful, both un-needed, and essential. He man is a Gary-Sue and he's essential to the plot, but its still entertaining cause thats the feel of it. But take a setting where people are more mundane, and someone who thinks they know what RP is comes along and tries to "beat" the RP, like winning a game, they're missing the point. New RPrs may just not want to be bad and disliked and will make an overly attractive character anyway, its human nature and all we can do about it is educate new RPrs on how to maintain a balanced character.

PS. I ramble o.o and not very organized either  

[Catfolk Rogue]

That is a tough question. I don't really know one until I meet one. I have a hard time keeping my characters out of Mary-sue territory because I have a "ZOMGMUSTBECOOL" complex.