Just started my dog on a raw diet!

[Ailinea]

Hello all! I'm not new, but I've never posted before, so technically I guess I am haha. Sooo, hi! razz

Anywho, I adopted a 2-year-old beagle mix dog last year (named Ludo) and have been having issues feeding him since. He refuses 90% of the time to eat dry kibble. I first tried using Beneful and some brand a friend got me at Big Lots, but became more aware on how terrible Beneful, Pedigree, and all that other garbage really is for your dog. So I moved to Natural Balance which he liked OK enough, and then after I started working at a dog kennel, have been using Fromm Pork and Applesauce. None of these options he'll eat without adding wet food, which has been a variety of different kinds, ending with Innova's Evo. The only kibble he'd actually eat was the nasty Purina k/d foot when he had a UTI. Weirdo.

Enough with the long intro. One of my co-workers at the kennel feeds her dogs a raw diet and has had great success with it. I've been researching it for a few months now and decided to give it a shot. Last night I gave him his first chicken thigh and he immediately ran to his kennel and went to town with it. Needless to say, I think he approves! After a couple weeks, I'll be moving on to tripe, hearts, liver, and possibly whole prey. I'm actually really excited about this, and I'm sure he is too!

Is anyone else feeding raw or using the prey-based model diet? I might have some questions for you, since I'm still a newbie at this.  

[pompoennetje]

I don't know much about it, but my parents used to feed their previous dog with raw food. Because she had some skin allergy, that was caused by some stuff in normal regular food. Hence the reason they gave her raw food.  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

yay, congrats! I was feeding my furries raw. But money has been very tight lately so it's been mostly kibble, supplementing with meaty bones when I can. Savage (guild owner) does raw for almost all her furries and so does skeksis. So ask away I'm sure someone will be able to answer your questions.  

[Ailinea]

Thanks! Yeah, I'm a little worried about the cost, but if I buy in bulk and freeze, it'll probably come out to the same I was spending before on the premium dog food or slightly more. His size requires less than half a pound per day, so it shouldn't be *too* bad.

I guess my first question applies to where he eats. My roommate for some reason is freaking out that I'm feeding him in his kennel and thinks he'll become aggressive with the food because of it... which I honestly don't see the big deal, it's HIS kennel and HIS secluded space, he has a right to eat in peace, but whatever. She's suggesting a mat of some sort, but how do you get the dog to stay on the mat and eat it? All he wants to do is carry it to a small den-like space to chow down on it.  

[CrissAngelLover12345]

From research and from what I've been told by others in this guild (I've been trying to learn about raw diets since I want to get my furries on Raw diets when I can afford to), Feeding in the kennel or some other easy to clean surface (like tile floor) is an ideal location for feeding when feeding raw, rather than allowing him to eat wherever he likes. You'll want to clean the surface as soon as he's done eating to prevent anyone from getting sick, so feeding him in his kennel and then cleaning it afterwards is better. Also, he shouldn't develop aggression from that, I've never heard of feeding in a kennel to cause aggression.

Generally competition with other dogs/other animals for food will cause aggression. Another cause for aggression is when a dog has been neglected and hasn't been fed regularly, and as a result, it doesn't know when its next meal will come, so they will protect the meal they have, at least until they figure out that they will get regular feedings and will usually stop the aggression (though not always).  

[SmoothSavage]

I feed both my dogs in their crates for easy cleanup. Its just the most convenient way for me. Resource guarding will depend on the dog, and it doesn't really have much to do with the crate. For instance, my Pit Bull, Riddle, never had any resource guarding at all- I've always been able to take anything from her and do anything to her while she eats. Melon, my younger dog, I had to REALLY work with him on not being aggressive while eating.

Buying in bulk saves lots of money. Also being willing to cut things up saves money- for instance, buying a whole chicken and cutting into meal sized pieces. I can usually get a whole chicken for .99 cents/lb, whereas things like wings and thighs alone are usually $1.69-2.29/lb. Hitting up sales is also great- I buy pork spare ribs whenever they're on sale for $1.50/lb or less.

I've experimented with whole prey, with varying degrees of success. Both my dogs love whole fish like sardines or herring. I've also tried rats, quail, and chicks- the quail only Riddle would eat, the chicks only Melon would eat, and the rats ended up vomited up, which was HORRIFYING. Not doing that again.

Are you doing veggies, or strictly prey model?  

[Ailinea]

Hey guys, thanks for the replies! I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep feeding him in his kennel, to hell with my roommate haha. It might also help him get used to his kennel since he associates it with his separation anxiety that I'm also working on... which is a whole other issue.

Anyway, I read about the BARF diet, and the research I've been looking at tells me that wild dogs typically don't eat stomach contents and therefore veggie supplements aren't needed, and just using a prey-model diet. So I think I'm sticking with just meat. Although, a couple years back I remember reading a research paper on coyotes and persimmons, hmm...

Well, a new issue has arisen D:

He ate the entire thigh the first night in his kennel. Last night I left the skin on this time and he seemed to have a hard time with it, but ate all the skin and a little bit of the meat but left a significant chunk (including the bone) left over that he wanted to run away with and hide. I refrigerated it and gave it to him tonight and all he seems to want to do is run off with it, drop it somewhere, and leave it alone. He hasn't tried to eat it or anything, but he takes it from my hand. Maybe I fed him too much the night before? Should I just wait until tomorrow and see is he's hungry then? I'm already planning on buying some beef, bison, and goat tripe and some ground whole rabbit from mypetcarnivore.com in a couple weeks, but I've read that he should stay on chicken for a week or so before transitioning him to organs and other stuff. I don't want to buy all this stuff if he's not going to go for them.

And buying in bulk is a great idea! Never thought about buying a whole chicken. I have time to cut them up, and saving money is definitely a plus. My boss even told me I can use the freezer at the kennel if I need to biggrin  

[SmoothSavage]

A thigh may have been too big to start with- a thigh is a meal for my 50lb dogs. They've also got tons of meat that can fill them up. Try giving him something smaller with softer bones, like a chicken wing or neck. Even my cats and ferrets could eat those easily.

I'd just stick him in his crate with whatever you want him to eat, and if he doesn't eat it, it goes in the fridge for the next meal. He won't have places to run off and hide food in the crate, and if you're going to be making his food he needs to learn to eat whatever you serve him, or his diet will end up imbalanced.  

[Ailinea]

We might be thinking of different things; the package of thighs I got was a package of 4 and the whole package was less than 2lbs. Since the calculator I used on a raw website calculated his diet at 5oz per day (for a 16lb dog) I figured one piece would be just right. Hmm.

I'll try giving him the piece again tomorrow. Thanks for the advice, I definitely don't want him being picky. xD I'll also have to run to the store to get some of those chicken backs, until then I'll try portioning out the thighs into smaller pieces. Thanks! smile  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

From what I understand from the books I've read is that dogs DO eat stomach contents, but they are also oppertunistic and have been known to eat grass and sometimes veggies. At the very least, make sure your diet has a variety of organs. Meat and bone alone will not cover all your vitamins and minerals. I personally love adding a variety of veggies, it's fiber without the carbs. Especially pumpkin.  

[Ailinea]

This is part of the literature I've read on stomach contents and carnivory/omnivory:

http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

And I plan on adding organs once he adjusts to the chicken. Literature says that the stomach usually won't handle the rich content of the organs right away and a transition period of just chicken or something should be used for about a week or two. smile  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

Ailinea

This is part of the literature I've read on stomach contents and carnivory/omnivory:

http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

And I plan on adding organs once he adjusts to the chicken. Literature says that the stomach usually won't handle the rich content of the organs right away and a transition period of just chicken or something should be used for about a week or two. smile

Dr. Billinghurst, the guy who started the term BARF diet talks about dogs as omnivores. While yes it's true they are classed as carnivores, unlike cats, (a true carnivore) they do have the enzymes to break down vegetable matter and convert it to the appropriate vitamins. I would only suggest to read from a couple of different sources. Even try a few different diets and see how your dog does on them. Before committing to one specific diet.  

[Ailinea]

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

Ailinea

This is part of the literature I've read on stomach contents and carnivory/omnivory:

http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

And I plan on adding organs once he adjusts to the chicken. Literature says that the stomach usually won't handle the rich content of the organs right away and a transition period of just chicken or something should be used for about a week or two. smile

Dr. Billinghurst, the guy who started the term BARF diet talks about dogs as omnivores. While yes it's true they are classed as carnivores, unlike cats, (a true carnivore) they do have the enzymes to break down vegetable matter and convert it to the appropriate vitamins. I would only suggest to read from a couple of different sources. Even try a few different diets and see how your dog does on them. Before committing to one specific diet.

I have. smile

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IFRqTkBUgGSeC4pPMxrGR8T8FtzqJrWGFfmA0DoMljd4U_zXlp-Fmm5gugAbyEPty5blgoYR7t4ycundtiMwaKHrABcTIehn3yCnMjN_VMlMlXVFN14I/Dogs are carnivores
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

And I hate to pull it from the same source as before, but they do cite sources:

http://rawfed.com/myths/feedraw.html

Make sure to look through the omnivore and stomach contents myth pages. These contain valuable, documented information that help dispel some of the misconceptions surrounding dogs and their dietary needs. Also, please read through the Prey Model vs. BARF page for greater detail.

BARF diets falsely assume dogs are omnivores. Dogs do not need vegetables and fruits, and neither do they need a bunch of supplements. Those are not species appropriate and are simply "safety nets" to make owners feel better about feeding raw. Also, BARF diets advocate feeding 50% bone—this is way too much bone! Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation tells us that the bones and skin of an animal compose no more than 25% of the animal's weight (pg126). In the larger herbivores a wolf brings down, not all of the bones are consummable, which means the percentage of bone a wolf actually receives is less than 25%. BARF diets claim to be correct in an evolutionary context, but evolution and nature clearly demonstrate that wolves are carnivorous animals and that no prey animal that wolves eat is 50% bone and X% veggies (since wolves do not eat stomach contents). A species appropriate raw diet models the prey killed by wolves in the wild, recreating this complete and sufficient diet for our dogs (why feed our dogs as domesticated wolves?). So take the money spent on supplements and veggies and buy some whole rabbits for your dog. You will save a lot of time, too. But if you have your heart set on feeding veggies, then feed veggies. Just recognize that your dog has no use for them if you are feeding a wide variety of raw meaty bones, organs, and/or whole animals. If you want to feed veggies and fruits (many dogs and wild canids enjoy the occasional piece of fruit) as occasional treats, then by all means do so, especially if they are useful training treats. The occasional fruit or vegetable is not going to hurt your dog or throw off its feeding routine. Just be certain to avoid fruits and vegetables that are toxic to pets (like onions and raisins).

As a zoology graduate, I can assure you that dogs are carnivores, as my mentor literally wrote the book on mammals (Dr. George Feldhamer, http://www.amazon.com/Mammalogy-Adaptation-Diversity-George-Feldhamer/dp/0801886953/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1315593530&sr=8-2 )

I'm not trying to argue, it's just what I've read, and I guess maybe I might be a little biased on the issue? He's not one for veggies anyway as I'll occasionally toss him some that I'm eating and he'll generally ignore it. Thanks for the input, either way! ^_^  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

I'm not saying that dogs aren't carnivores, just that, being so doesn't mean they don't benefit from consuming some vegetable matter. Do you have any books on feeding? I think everyone ought to have at least one.  

[Ailinea]

Ha!! It turns out he just wanted privacy. Last night and tonight I just sat in front of his kennel because he hates it when I close it. When he still wouldn't eat it tonight, I said to hell with it and closed his kennel door. Went to the computer and didn't hear a peep. Went back into the room about 10 minutes later and he was licking his chops and the chicken was gone! Ha, who knew. Maybe this will solve two problems: he'll associate his kennel with good stuff and not be as anxious to be in it with time! biggrin