dentistry got me thinking

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

I hate the lab portion of that class. Just saying. Maybe it's my teacher, maybe it's having like, absolutely no experience and being expected to have the whole mouth spotless in 20mins....I dunno, but it seems like I just fail no matter how hard I try.

Theory is more interesting on the other hand. For one, my teacher openly admitted she thinks there's something missing in pet food. Just like years ago, taurine was missing in these perfectly balanced pet foods, they're still seeing some "unexplainable" illness that may be associated with diet. For me this was interesting because it goes to show that a biologically appropriate/species appropriate diet, IS just as good as the vets diets with all their research they can't possibly know everything. Science is a constantly evolving process.

ANYWAY, so not what I originally wanted to discuss. Since starting this class, I've started to try looking at my pets teeth more often. Two crucial things I've noticed.

1. Rascal has one tooth, that is quite covered in plaque. More so than the 10yr cat who's teeth I cleaned yesterday. It's got me considering dentistry again. BUT, he's 13, and his kidney function is questionable. Although his last blood work came back and everything was normal, I dunno what the next one will show. Obviously certain drugs are safer than others, but it does happen pets die during proceedures, hasn't happened to any of mine yet, but it's still a huge concern of mine. The plaque off may not be doing enough. Here's what I'm considering.

1. A different product like nature's dentist, might be worth trying to see if it's more effective? The ingredients are impressive, full of probiotics, with zinc which prevents plaque buildup and amino acids for breath control. Although, again, it probably works best as a preventative, I don't know how well it will get rid of that large piece of tartar.

2. More bones. Rascal doesn't get as often as Cowboy, on account of, I don't carry small bones at my store, I need to make a point of going to the grocery store, maybe getting him some nice chicken wings.

3. T/D or Medical Dental as a treat once a day. This would be a temporary solution just to get that back premolar under control. Does anyone know typically how long a cat should eat a dental diet to visibly reduce plaque? This was suggested to me by a tech at school, so, while it's mostly a preventative food, perhaps it could brush off that plaque.

There's other products out there I know. There is actually ONE natural product I'd like to get the name of which is passed the veterinary test (ps, dentabones have failed this repeatedly). There's the petzlife but, Rascal puts up a huge fight when I try to get that in his mouth. And I would need to do it daily for a month at least.


Okay, my other big concern, is Cowboy, same stupid 4rth premolar (or, the large tooth in the back) appears to be fractured, and on the other side, it looks like there might be a small chip. I've poked and proded at these teeth, I'm confident the root is not exposed, though on one tooth it seems visible. Worst case scenario for this is a root canal if the pulp is exposed but as long as it isn't, it doesn't cause any health concerns. Besides that, every other premolar is in good condition and pearly white. Both front canines look worn, not fractured but worn, which I assume is from frisbee catching.

Now the fracture is a concern mainly because of him chewing bones. It begs the question of, are the bones he chews safe? And can I comfortably continue to recommend them to clients. Lately he eats mostly rib bones. These are soft enough that he can actually eat the whole thing. Unlike some of the knuckle bones we carry. We carry all these bones either smoked or raw but I always give raw since the bones are softer raw. Perhaps I should switch him to something softer like a turkey neck. Or maybe I should continue to give him what we sell and watch to see if he chips anything else to know for sure that it's the bones that caused it and not something that happened in the past that I'm only noticing now. Since I know many members who give raw bones regularly for years and haven't reported any issues.  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

surprised FML FML FML

So while I've poked and prodded him already, and he didn't react then, tonight I brushed his teeth, and he reacted big time. The pulp looked redder. I'm so fckn screwed man. This is starting to look like it will ne a root cannal. I dunno how much those cost, but I'm looking at about $100 just for them to look at it.

Slightly calmer after realizing my clinic does root canals, so 40bucks to be seen and then I guess they'll make me an estimate.  

[Krissim Klaw]

I am by no means an expert, but I know a lot of people who have had dogs crack teeth eating raw bones. I should note these are dedicated owners who like us frequent dog/animal forums and looked into raw for a way to help take care of their dogs teeth. I've seen some people try to claim any time one of these cases crop up that the dog clearly had something wrong with the tooth beforehand but I don't think that is always the case.

I suspect genetics, how a dog chews, and what type of bones offered all play a roll in the risk of breakage. Some dogs can go their whole life and never crack a tooth while another can eat the same rmbs and crack several. I've always considered it one of the risks to offering bones that you have to weigh along with the benefits. Hopefully someone more versed in raw feeding will pop in here to suggest some of the safest raw choices you can try that still offer the teeth cleaning benefits. Because Cowboy already shows wearing on his teeth due to Frisbee, it seems like more gentle chews will be best for him regardless so as to slow down the wearing down process as much as possible.  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

crying I think maybe it's just these stupid rib bones I started him on, or maybe I hadn't defrosted it sufficiently. Because he's had RMB's for years and his teeth were always great. but they were always fresh, never frozen.

So I asked my teacher for a ballpark, and she said root canals in dogs usually go for like 2 thousand bucks. burning_eyes that's not an option. Even with the discount I get at my clinic, that would send me into debt for another year, for one tooth. At that price, I think extraction is going to be our likely course.

She did say that the local dentists have performed it on dogs at her clinic. So I'll call and ask about that.

But before I get too ahead of myself, I'll need a professional to asses the tooth, as maybe just a pulpotomy would be needed, and perhaps those are a great deal cheaper.

Part of what has me uber stressed is my teacher's vets finding out HOW this likely happened, as RMB's are extremely discouraged around here, and as a AHT I'm expected to know better. So they'll think I'm an idiot, maybe not want me working for them, maybe even make fun of me in front of coeworkers and classmates. I know it's a silly thing to worry about when my dog is possible in pain, but, it's up there with the money issues on my mind and stressing me right out of an appetite.  

[Krissim Klaw]

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

crying I think maybe it's just these stupid rib bones I started him on, or maybe I hadn't defrosted it sufficiently. Because he's had RMB's for years and his teeth were always great. but they were always fresh, never frozen.

So I asked my teacher for a ballpark, and she said root canals in dogs usually go for like 2 thousand bucks. burning_eyes that's not an option. Even with the discount I get at my clinic, that would send me into debt for another year, for one tooth. At that price, I think extraction is going to be our likely course.

She did say that the local dentists have performed it on dogs at her clinic. So I'll call and ask about that.

But before I get too ahead of myself, I'll need a professional to asses the tooth, as maybe just a pulpotomy would be needed, and perhaps those are a great deal cheaper.

Part of what has me uber stressed is my teacher's vets finding out HOW this likely happened, as RMB's are extremely discouraged around here, and as a AHT I'm expected to know better. So they'll think I'm an idiot, maybe not want me working for them, maybe even make fun of me in front of coeworkers and classmates. I know it's a silly thing to worry about when my dog is possible in pain, but, it's up there with the money issues on my mind and stressing me right out of an appetite.

You don't have to mention it was a RMB, if you think it might put your future job at risk. Every vet has their own opinions on things. The vet I go to for instance does not think you should ever play tug with a dog period because he thinks the risk of tooth trauma isn't worth it. My Aunt however who is a vet/owns two of her own vet clinics, thinks the potential benefits of tug outweigh the possible risks. She is also what I consider a dog person, big into training, competitive agility, and so on so that has shaped her opinion.

Sure your dog could loose a tooth to the bones but how many teeth might he have lost to decay if you hadn't been giving them? I know the feeling, but a back molar really isn't that huge of a deal in the big scheme of things. There is no such thing as a perfect owner or any way for us to protect our pets from everything. The most we can do is try and make informed decisions.  

[Skeksis]

Get the tooth extracted IMO.

And if it is going to put your career at risk don't tell them it was a bone- plenty of raw feeders don't disclose to their vets that their dogs get bones as some vets are so staunchly against RMBs that they will attribute -any- issue to them, whilst conveniently ignoring the correlation between kibble and periodontal disease. Everything has it's risks and benefits, RMBs are no different there. Sometimes what can go wrong does go wrong but that does not make it generalized bad practise.

Soft raw bones: Fresh lamb ribs, fresh pork ribs. Pork in general is very soft.

Avoid: Beef, any weight bearing bones, turkey legs and wings.  

[Skeksis]

Krissim Klaw

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

crying I think maybe it's just these stupid rib bones I started him on, or maybe I hadn't defrosted it sufficiently. Because he's had RMB's for years and his teeth were always great. but they were always fresh, never frozen.

So I asked my teacher for a ballpark, and she said root canals in dogs usually go for like 2 thousand bucks. burning_eyes that's not an option. Even with the discount I get at my clinic, that would send me into debt for another year, for one tooth. At that price, I think extraction is going to be our likely course.

She did say that the local dentists have performed it on dogs at her clinic. So I'll call and ask about that.

But before I get too ahead of myself, I'll need a professional to asses the tooth, as maybe just a pulpotomy would be needed, and perhaps those are a great deal cheaper.

Part of what has me uber stressed is my teacher's vets finding out HOW this likely happened, as RMB's are extremely discouraged around here, and as a AHT I'm expected to know better. So they'll think I'm an idiot, maybe not want me working for them, maybe even make fun of me in front of coeworkers and classmates. I know it's a silly thing to worry about when my dog is possible in pain, but, it's up there with the money issues on my mind and stressing me right out of an appetite.

You don't have to mention it was a RMB, if you think it might put your future job at risk. Every vet has their own opinions on things. The vet I go to for instance does not think you should ever play tug with a dog period because he thinks the risk of tooth trauma isn't worth it. My Aunt however who is a vet/owns two of her own vet clinics, thinks the potential benefits of tug outweigh the possible risks. She is also what I consider a dog person, big into training, competitive agility, and so on so that has shaped her opinion.

Sure your dog could loose a tooth to the bones but how many teeth might he have lost to decay if you hadn't been giving them? I know the feeling, but a back molar really isn't that huge of a deal in the big scheme of things. There is no such thing as a perfect owner or any way for us to protect our pets from everything. The most we can do is try and make informed decisions.

This is very true. Is a tooth worth the overall increased oral health [remembering that oral health or lack thereof can have a systemic effect] and the mental stimulation? That is for you to decide, Gab, but I personally think it a reasonable trade off. That is why I didn't get too upset about Severus busting a canine on a rabbit- the years of mental and physical benefits from hunting were just too much of a pay out for me to say 'Oh, I shouldn't have.'

The only way to have a pristine, non broken dog is to keep it on a lead it's entire life and never allow it to exert itself in any way, shape or form.
It isn't worth it.  

[Krissim Klaw]

Skeksis

This is very true. Is a tooth worth the overall increased oral health [remembering that oral health or lack thereof can have a systemic effect] and the mental stimulation? That is for you to decide, Gab, but I personally think it a reasonable trade off. That is why I didn't get too upset about Severus busting a canine on a rabbit- the years of mental and physical benefits from hunting were just too much of a pay out for me to say 'Oh, I shouldn't have.'

The only way to have a pristine, non broken dog is to keep it on a lead it's entire life and never allow it to exert itself in any way, shape or form.
It isn't worth it.

Even on lead you can easily end up with an injured dog. It is amazing how easy it is for an accident to happen.



@Gaby- Perhaps it will be best to wait to decide how you will proceed next after the tooth and the rest of his mouth is looked at and you decide what needs to be done with the tooth. In the meantime you can always stick to brushing. I find twice a day with a little mouthwash rinse keeps Kirby's teeth looking pearly white.  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

I agree, bones have been a big part of his life and something he enjoyed thoroughly, and I think I will, as aweful as it sounds, lie. But I'm not sure what to say, can I blame it on frisbee? Or would that not make sense as a frisbee injury would likely be to the canine. Cooked bones are probably AS frowned upon. All my teacher said on the case is not to recommend them to clients because of the potential for fractured teeth, but those who do, just advise them to watch the dog when they chew them and be ready to take it away if they have to work too hard at it. I could also play dumb. The tricky part is, if I take him to the clinic I work at. Well one boss happens to know I work at a store that sells raw. So it could come into question, as well as my honesty. I'm thinking of taking him in to school just to have the tooth assesed, and if they think it's possible that it's fresh enough that tertiary dentin may still form and seal the root. And I was mixing pets life with the bones cause I didn't find the bones took care of the canines.

I will have a discussion with my boss about the kinds of bones we carry, or at least who we recommend them too. I'm really worried about a client with a pup who bought a bag because I told her it was safer than cooked. I'm not crazy about the way pieces flake off. A fast muncher could swallow a piece like that. Poor Cowboy, I use to joke about how difficult it was to sample all of our products but now he's paid the price for real.

I'll post some pics of the damage soon.  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

Taking Cowboy to school 2morrow to have the tooth assessed. Still waiting to hear about prices to save the tooth, but I'm worried the other one (with the chip) may also need treatment. He doesn't seem to like me brushing it, it's not a big reaction with the other tooth. It sucks cause they are both in really good condition aside from the exposed pulp, I want to explore my options before making any decisions.  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

good news is the chipped tooth can stay. The fractured tooth is probably going. Still waiting to hear about the cost of a root canal but I have less than a week to decide, once dentistry class is over I have to take him to a real clinic no matter what I decide. My teacher said she'd remove the tooth for $250.  

[Shanna66]

did you tell them it was from a bone or blame it on something else?  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

Shanna66

did you tell them it was from a bone or blame it on something else?

my teacher could tell, based on the type of fracture, that it was a bone, but she didn't ask about raw vs cooked and she didn't give me grief about it. Like I said, in class they mention the potential risk but that the clients dogs have great teeth, she didn't say to discourage them, just, to mention the potential risk and not to suggest them.  

[Shanna66]

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

Shanna66

did you tell them it was from a bone or blame it on something else?

my teacher could tell, based on the type of fracture, that it was a bone, but she didn't ask about raw vs cooked and she didn't give me grief about it. Like I said, in class they mention the potential risk but that the clients dogs have great teeth, she didn't say to discourage them, just, to mention the potential risk and not to suggest them.

thats good to hear smile  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

soooo, the machine they use to split the tooth and prevent fracturing the jaw while they remove large teeth, is not working. Which means I can not get the tooth removed at my school. A normal clinic will charge 400-500 dollars...

However, upon speaking to a teacher, I have found an interesting alternative. For the same price of having it removed at a normal clinic. (okay, maybe twice the price if you consider the discount I would get at the clinic I work at.) I'm getting a root canal done on the tooth instead. My teacher has, in the past when specialists didn't exist in the vet field, hired human dentists to perform the procedure and I will be the one to induce and monitor him. But the vet and other licensed techs will be there if anything goes wrong. So yup, I'm going with that deal, but it's just a matter of booking the date because the human dentist is going to my teacher's clinic on a day that he's not working, but my teacher also needs to be there...I spent like 1hr on the phone and we still haven't settled on a date yet. Hopefully tomorrow we can.