Being Gay is Wrong

[iMito]

Edit by Taeryyn: Since so many people are apparently refusing to read the first post, I feel the need to clarify: Mito is a crewmember, and in this thread, he is arguing for the opposition. As in, he is playing the part of someone who believes homosexuality is wrong. I'm done with in-thread warnings; the next time one of you flies off the handle and calls him "stupid" or tells him to "get out of the guild", you will receive an official warning and one strike against you.

Being gay is wrong. Prove me wrong.

This is more insight for me than anything else, I'm not against homosexuality, clearly. However, I want to see how the members of this guild argue against the arguement condemning them. [Well, maybe not arguement, statement really.]

Contradictory arguements to take into account:

- Being gay's not natural.
- The Bible says so [Not only in Leviticus].
- It's just gross.
- It's a choice.  

[Taeryyn]

This is too easy.

- Being gay's not natural. So it's man-made? It's artificial? Many species of animals have been documented as having homosexual relationships. Besides, countless products and parts of our day to day lifestyle are not natural, but no one is bitching about eye-glasses, CDs, or chemotherapy.
- The Bible says so [Not only in Leviticus]. The Bible also says that in some situations, it's acceptable to kill rape victims because they didn't cry for help loudly enough. The Bible says that it's acceptable to have slaves. The Bible says women should be shunned and in isolation during their period. The list goes on and on.

But all of that, including the various passages about homosexuality, are completely irrelevant. In the New Testament, Jesus said that the only laws were "Love God and love thy neighbour." Aside from the 10 Commandments (which follow this principle), all the other hateful things that are in the Old Testament don't apply.

Besides, what kind of Christian uses their Bible to be hateful, when being hateful goes against what their savior said??

- It's just gross. So? I think eating mussels is gross, so does that mean that people who eat mussels shouldn't be allowed to marry? We don't base laws on what is "gross".

- It's a choice. Why on earth would ANYONE choose to be gay, when it would get them beat up, kicked out, and isolated? confused Secondly, if they don't choose to be straight, how do other people choose to be gay?  

[iMito]

Please note that each arguement for each quote is an arguement from a different standpoint. So, yes they contradict each other somewhat.

Ciel Avec Cafeine

- Being gay's not natural. So it's man-made? It's artificial? Many species of animals have been documented as having homosexual relationships. Besides, countless products and parts of our day to day lifestyle are not natural, but no one is bitching about eye-glasses, CDs, or chemotherapy.

No, but it sex is meant for the soul purpose of survival of the human species, or procreation. Homosexual feelings are caused by a hormonal imbalance, a defect. It's not natural or normal, for that matter.

Ciel Avec Cafeine

- The Bible says so [Not only in Leviticus]. The Bible also says that in some situations, it's acceptable to kill rape victims because they didn't cry for help loudly enough. The Bible says that it's acceptable to have slaves. The Bible says women should be shunned and in isolation during their period. The list goes on and on.

But all of that, including the various passages about homosexuality, are completely irrelevant. In the New Testament, Jesus said that the only laws were "Love God and love thy neighbour." Aside from the 10 Commandments (which follow this principle), all the other hateful things that are in the Old Testament don't apply.

Besides, what kind of Christian uses their Bible to be hateful, when being hateful goes against what their savior said??

All those passages have been turned down by the Church as being archaic and not being relevant to our modern culture. However, homosexuality is a universal topic across time and will not and should not change.

Plus, we don't use our Bible to be hateful. We're just not condoning what homosexuals are doing and feel that our government should not influenced by evil. Those who do use it to be hateful aren't living out Christ's will.

Ciel Avec Cafeine

- It's just gross. So? I think eating mussels is gross, so does that mean that people who eat mussels shouldn't be allowed to marry? We don't base laws on what is "gross".

I don't have anything against gays, it's just gross and I don't think they should have sex.

Ciel Avec Cafeine

- It's a choice. Why on earth would ANYONE choose to be gay, when it would get them beat up, kicked out, and isolated? confused Secondly, if they don't choose to be straight, how do other people choose to be gay?

There are several reasons to choose to be gay. One is a popularity or bandwagon factor. Everyone else they know is doing it and they just don't feel like they fit in unless they are gay, themselves. As for popularity, being gay does create a popularity factor amongst students. It's cool now-a-days to know a gay kid.

Also, there's the economic factor. People choose to be gay because you don't have the children to deal with or pregnancy scares. Plus, they want to take advantage of the marriage benifits of tax breaks.

What about teenage rebellion? A goal of a teenager is to be rebellious, and this is against the social norm, a form of rebelling.  

[Taeryyn]

SPMito

Please note that each arguement for each quote is an arguement from a different standpoint. So, yes they contradict each other somewhat.

3nodding Okie doke.

Quote:

No, but it sex is meant for the soul purpose of survival of the human species, or procreation. Homosexual feelings are caused by a hormonal imbalance, a defect. It's not natural or normal, for that matter.

First of all, there is no proven cause for homosexuality or homosexual inclinations. Whether it's genetic, environmental, or something else, there's no solid proof yet to give a definitive answer.

Secondly, how many people who have sex are trying to reproduce? Is it illegal to have sex before marriage? Without the intention of marriage? Without the intention of children?

Are elderly couples not allowed to marry or have rights because they can't reproduce? Of course not. Sex for humans is not solely for reproductive purposes.

Quote:

All those passages have been turned down by the Church as being archaic and not being relevant to our modern culture. However, homosexuality is a universal topic across time and will not and should not change.

Should not change? According to who? Homosexuality was accepted in various places throughout time. Besides, even within the Church, not all denominations, or groups have the same opinion.

Secondly, why do they get to pick and choose? It seems awfully convienient that they can say what laws are archaic and which aren't.

Quote:

Plus, we don't use our Bible to be hateful. We're just not condoning what homosexuals are doing and feel that our government should not influenced by evil. Those who do use it to be hateful aren't living out Christ's will.

Suppose I don't condone black people marrying white people. Does that mean that I can decide what is and isn't right for other people?

Live and let live. Treat others as you would like to be treated. I would say that fighting to deny a group of people their human rights is pretty hateful, wouldn't you? Especially when there is no real evidence that homosexuality is unnatural, negative, or evil.

Look at every other "law" that is still considered relevant today. The principle of ALL of them is "love thy neighbour". How is two people of the same sex being in a relationship against that principle?

Quote:

I don't have anything against gays, it's just gross and I don't think they should have sex.

Don't watch gay porn. Don't spy on gay people having sex. I don't have anything against turnips, I just don't think they should exist. blaugh

Quote:

There are several reasons to choose to be gay. One is a popularity or bandwagon factor. Everyone else they know is doing it and they just don't feel like they fit in unless they are gay, themselves. As for popularity, being gay does create a popularity factor amongst students. It's cool now-a-days to know a gay kid.

Except people have been gay throughout history, in places where being gay is a death sentence. It's not popular or chic to be gay in parts of the middle East. Yet people are still gay.

Quote:

Also, there's the economic factor. People choose to be gay because you don't have the children to deal with or pregnancy scares. Plus, they want to take advantage of the marriage benifits of tax breaks.

People use birth control, have abortions, and give children up for adoption, because they don't want children.
Or they could simply not have sex. Why would someone live with/have sex with someone they weren't attracted to when there are so many other options??

A man and a woman who live together for 10 months in the same house get marriage benefits and tax breaks. They could hate each other, never see each other, and loathe each other with a passion, but people are more accepting of their "marriage" than they are of a loving couple who want the same rights? That's logical.

Quote:

What about teenage rebellion? A goal of a teenager is to be rebellious, and this is against the social norm, a form of rebelling.

So, this teenage rebellion lasts for how long...? That doesn't explain the many, many, many older gay couples and gay people. Have they all been rebelling against their parents?  

[xX S P L I T Xx]

It's not a choice it's a chemical reaction in the brain or a biological disorder. Take your pick.  

[Taeryyn]

Can you prove that? Do you have a scientific study to actually back up what you're saying?

Don't argue with science or biology if you can't actually back it up with scientific facts.  

[Azymyth]

While in the past homosexuality was considered an abnormal behavior in the DSM, it has since been removed and classified as a lifestyle choice instead. If homosexuality was indeed a mental disorder, I suspect this guild would be very empty.

Saying something is 'gross' is not a valid argument. What is gross to one person may be the exact opposite for another. If you were to say it is 'unsanitary' then you have a bit more footing. But then, that argument can be disproven because many hetrosexual acts can be unsanitary when proper hygeine isn't observed.  

[Tsubasa_Gaijin]

I think their is a diffrence between gays and homosexuals. homosexuals don't choose, and most gays don't.

It has to do with the diffrence between Sexual oriantation and Sexual preference. SO is genetic or at least not by choice, and SP has an element of choice within it.

Homosexual is sexual orientation, and Gay contaibns both sexual orientation and preference.

But as someone said before, why would anyone choose to be gay?  

[Taeryyn]

Gay is a term for homosexual. (At least, that's the way I've always known it to be....) Maybe it's different in your region, but where I live, the two terms are synonymous.

Homosexual is more...scientific. "Homo" meaning "like" or something like that. Gay is really just slang, but it's more accepted than, say, f**.  

[Castilleja]

This might be going into places this debate doesn't wanna go. But anyway.

With transgender people, their hypothalamuses reflect the opposite sex's chemical makeup.

Some studies have found this true for homosexuals as well. Some haven't. Jury's still out.

Also, in utero, it has been documented that abnormal shifts in androgen levels can create masculinized females or feminized males.

Remember that thing about Swedish Olympians in the 70's? Yeah. What on earth about those XY females? Genetically male, morphologically female. Weird. But true. 1/2 of all female models are XY females.

People aren't normal -- especially now, when humans have such a large population and such a large gene pool. There's bound to be teratogenic factors, too. Do all the abovementioned things actually make a homosexual?

Dunno. Is it bad? Some of them. Like the teratogens -- bad! Bad! But... ummm...

Oh. Jesus loves me. And he told me that I should love everyone as myself. That either means love everyone as a Christian, or everyone is a bio major who's crazy about lobsters. Or maybe he means that we're all the same, despite everything.

Dunno where I was going with that.  

[iMito]

A great site countering the "Bible arguement" that I found.

http://www.postfun.com/pfp/homosexual.html

I would post it in a post, but it's a tad bit long.

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As for the gross arguement, it's not as easy to convince someone as some of the arguements have said. Yes, that's absolutely true that the "But it's gross" arguement is very ignorant... but it doesn't stop people from using it and keeping that mindset.  

[Jaykoya]

SPMito

A great site countering the "Bible arguement" that I found.

http://www.postfun.com/pfp/homosexual.html

I would post it in a post, but it's a tad bit long.

---

As for the gross arguement, it's not as easy to convince someone as some of the arguements have said. Yes, that's absolutely true that the "But it's gross" arguement is very ignorant... but it doesn't stop people from using it and keeping that mindset.

Wow. that guy did some serious homework. That impresses me beyond belief. I am a Christian, first and foremost. However, that side of the argument has never been shown to me before. It makes alot of sense, actually. I'm glad God blessed me with an open mind ^.^  

[Tigersave209]

Being gay is not gross, being ignorant is gross. Let people live, we're not forcing you to be gay or straight. Live with us and we'll live with you.  

[Pumkeen]

I think the human species has advanced past the point where procreation is our only concern or need. There are many other things to consider as well, such as the maturing rate of males against females. In general, males feel the need to procreate earlier than females. What good is that? If both parties aren't willing at the same time, that doesn't really help procreation does it?

I think that everyone has within them the capacity to love another regardless of gender but society is not so accepting.

Let's face it; if half the human race were to be wiped out, we still wouldn't die out. Is procreation truly as important anymore?  

[Twilight Seraphim]

THere is no reason to have any nefative feelings against gays. Just because what they do doesnt agree with what you belive doesnt mean what they are doing is wrong. Live and let live.