Is there God?

[Brwcrw3]

So many Good & Bad things in the world, left unexplained. Was it caused by humans, is there really a seprate body up there....or down there?

If there is a god why did 9/11 happen cause so much distress and trouble, God is supposed to keep the world sane, make sure that there is as little hate but so far there has only been trouble.

Why do we pray, it almost never happens to come true. If It did happen I would have been dead long ago when I prayed every day to god that something will kill me.

What or Where is god?  

[Aki Norikaeru]

We must learn to be sane and the best way is by turning us against those insane people who do some much harm, so to speak. That is, I think, part of the everything happens for a reason philosophy.  

[bluecherry]

I'm not sure if this is actually a matter for philosophy so much as science, seeing as this is ultimately not about how we view things, but the actual nature of the world and not just how it should be viewed. Unless you wanted to include in the discussion debate uponmetaphysics and epistomology. ninja That said, I myself find that based on all the current information we have, deities and any/all forms of "mysticism" are not only non-existent, but not even possible to exist. The thing you're bringing up is known as the "Problem of Evil." That particular argument is a good one, but is pretty specific to the typical Christian god. (by the way, that wiki article in the first part about the "logical problem of evil" has one minor flaw in how they stated it. They forgot to include that the specific type of god they're talking about is also assumed/by definition omniscient, so has to know that evil things exist. They included the omniscience in the later arguments though where it was relevant. 3nodding Also not very well addressed in the article where the "free will defense" is brought up is bad things happening to good people that are not the result of humans making immoral choices -- like lightning striking and destroying property and lives. Also, another problem not addressed in attempted defenses against the problem of evil in the Christian definition of god: some claim that the god of Christianity can be omnipotent, yet limited by logical rules. This does not make sense because 1)god is supposed to be the most powerful thing out there, above all else in Christianity, even if you say he's limited by logic. 2) To say he is limited by logic means logic is more powerful then a god that is by definition the most powerful thing, which is illogical in itself. Thus a god that is by definition the greatest power/force/thing in existence still limited by logic renders themself out of existence for having a very existence which by definition goes against logic. Add to that that in Christianity god also is supposed to have existed before everything and anything else and made all the subsequent rules essentially. This means god should have existed before logic and created the rules of logic thereafter. So he was not supposed to have been originally limited by logic and only became limited by it after he created it I suppose -- but if this is the case why would he create logical laws to limit him which would make it logically impossible for a world free of all evil to coexist and cooperate with free will? If he did that, then you again must claim one of the original premises of god as being "omnipotent" ((at least at before the creation of logic)), "omniscient", and "omnibonevolent", and thus the basic definition of god upon which Christianity in all it's many branches rests, is not true. You may also only keep those three premises by saying he did not exist before logical rules to set them, the logical rules, up and thus was not the first thing to exist from which all other things were created from/by his will. If he didn't exist first and create everything else, he's not the ultimate creator, something existed first and had more power first, kind of like the guy who's being asserted as the ultimate one in charge has been revealed to have another boss above him. And if he's got a boss above him which is pre-existing rules of logic, then that still just brings up the previous problem I mentioned of he can't exist as lower than and limited by logic while still maintaining the Christian definition of him as being the highest existing power. So you see, you have to either abandon the "free will, god limited by logic" argument that attempted to defend the Christian god, or, you have to forfeit no less than one fundamental aspect of the definition of god which Christianity is founded upon.)

By the way, those last two things I brought up against the "free will defense" -- I was reasoning this out myself. Does anybody know who may have said this argument first and/or if the argument has a name what it is? Having a name to put and/or explanation I could post a link to once I know where it comes from/what it officially is would save me time typing and space in posts for later. ninja

 

[Naynram Ukir]

No one can say to another person if there is a god or not. I don't believe that's right. I think you should decide for yourself, on whether you believe in any deity or not. I've personally never heard of God keeping the world sane. It's been insane since the beginning of forever (lol oxymoron), and that's how we get chaos and then change.

I believe the good and the bad is caused by humans and that all of the world, our realm and any other ones are God. I'm panentheistic.

As for prayers, I believe in magic and do believe they can help people. I don't believe it's like a wish being granted by a god though, You have to put forth the change.

 

[bluecherry]

In what way do you mean "No one can say to another person if there is a god or not. I don't believe that's right"? Do you mean to say you are part of the "it's impossible to prove either way!" camp? Because just because this is a large matter in life, I think not only is that far from reason not to tell somebody one way or the other, I think it's reason all the more to. Refusing to give somebody the reasons you believe what you do on such a big issue I think is like lying to them, you're withholding information and then expecting them to both "respect your opinion" -- which they have no idea where you're getting it from, you could be pulling it out of a** essentially and nothing more -- and try to make a decision for themself with a minimum amount of information on the arguments for and against all the different options. It's like somebody who has thoroughly examined all the different brands of orange soda out there or health content, how cleanly the factories making it are, taste, and comparative cost to actual value so that they can find what they really think is the best brand to buy then telling somebody who asked them at the grocery store which brand of orange soda they thought was the best deal that "I can't tell you that. You have to decide for yourself." This person has little information to go on, and if EVERYBODY who has information which could help them choose, like maybe the person who keeps the sanitation records for a factory, won't tell them either, then how are they supposed to make a good decision for themself? Making decisions based on ignorance they quite likely will not make the same choice they freely would if they were well informed.

 

[A Moment In Subtext]

Brwcrw3

So many Good & Bad things in the world, left unexplained. Was it caused by humans, is there really a seprate body up there....or down there?

If there is a god why did 9/11 happen cause so much distress and trouble, God is supposed to keep the world sane, make sure that there is as little hate but so far there has only been trouble.

Why do we pray, it almost never happens to come true. If It did happen I would have been dead long ago when I prayed every day to god that something will kill me.

What or Where is god?

I believe that there is a god. He is a seperate being, but is in everything in existance. There is also the Devil, Lucifer, the fallen angel of light.
God gives people free will, so that they may choose to worship him, the love him, or to turn away from him. And when we choose to turn away the Devil has the ability to work on us. And then bad things do happen.
God always answers our prayers. It just isn't always with an answer we like. Sometimes, he said "no." When you pray for something bad to happen to ourselves or to someone else, regardless of whether WE define them as good or bad, he says "No."
God is an omnipotent being, the Creator of all things, the Father of Jesus the Christ, and he is everywhere and in everything.  

[Da_Black_Knight]

i look at it this way: in the game of life, God is our physics-engine. he governs a set of rules (the laws of physics, time, etc...) within which any event may occur, sorta like the matrix, except that these rules CANNOT be broken, not just "may not", but can not.

i believe in intelligent design: its a nice compromise between creationism and darwinism: also, i do not believe (strongly) in an afterlife:

i admit it would be pretty dank to live in perfect peace for all of time, but this simply cannot be: the mechanism of thought, the brain, neurons, and other supporting cells, would not exist because they would eventually rot away in your body: if we ever did experience life after death, it would be an enitirely non-human experience, something that none of us could ever hope to even imagine.

sorry to say, but i believe we all just wink out of existance: this means you must make the most of your precious time on this earth, cuz its all you got.  

[bluecherry]

A Moment In Subtext

Brwcrw3

So many Good & Bad things in the world, left unexplained. Was it caused by humans, is there really a seprate body up there....or down there?

If there is a god why did 9/11 happen cause so much distress and trouble, God is supposed to keep the world sane, make sure that there is as little hate but so far there has only been trouble.

Why do we pray, it almost never happens to come true. If It did happen I would have been dead long ago when I prayed every day to god that something will kill me.

What or Where is god?

I believe that there is a god. He is a seperate being, but is in everything in existance. There is also the Devil, Lucifer, the fallen angel of light.
God gives people free will, so that they may choose to worship him, the love him, or to turn away from him. And when we choose to turn away the Devil has the ability to work on us. And then bad things do happen.
God always answers our prayers. It just isn't always with an answer we like. Sometimes, he said "no." When you pray for something bad to happen to ourselves or to someone else, regardless of whether WE define them as good or bad, he says "No."
God is an omnipotent being, the Creator of all things, the Father of Jesus the Christ, and he is everywhere and in everything.

From what you have said so far, you've posed you think of a god that is, at least from what I gather (correct me if I'm wrong) the typical Christian god - omnipresence and omnipotence included in this, and as long as it is the typical Christian god, omniscience too. You've also said there is a devil. If this is the case, then how do you explain what I see to be a contradiction between the presence of god in the devil, that he created all things as you say which would include the devil, which means he made the basic nature of the devil, as he was omniscient also knew what this devil would go and do from the start when he was making him and had the power to stop him, yet didn't. Again, if this IS the Christian God you are talking about, he's also supposed to be "omnibenevolent", meaning he doesn't WANT bad things happening like that. So then, why would he do this/let this happen? As long as this is the Christian god you are talking about with the omnibenevolence and such, then if you want to bring up the free will defense, please see the post I made above on the Problem of Evil and about the Free Will Defense. Also, you mentioned he answers all "prayers" -- would this include the devil's if the devil made any? And if he ultimately is the decider of what is or isn't good for ourselves or anyone/anything else, than isn't that an over-ride of free will as it is being defined in this case? He'd answer requests, but only requests he agrees with as being good -- really it means that he's intervening on behalf of those who want things he likes to alter and change things.

 

[A Moment In Subtext]

bluecherry

A Moment In Subtext

Brwcrw3

So many Good & Bad things in the world, left unexplained. Was it caused by humans, is there really a seprate body up there....or down there?

If there is a god why did 9/11 happen cause so much distress and trouble, God is supposed to keep the world sane, make sure that there is as little hate but so far there has only been trouble.

Why do we pray, it almost never happens to come true. If It did happen I would have been dead long ago when I prayed every day to god that something will kill me.

What or Where is god?

I believe that there is a god. He is a seperate being, but is in everything in existance. There is also the Devil, Lucifer, the fallen angel of light.
God gives people free will, so that they may choose to worship him, the love him, or to turn away from him. And when we choose to turn away the Devil has the ability to work on us. And then bad things do happen.
God always answers our prayers. It just isn't always with an answer we like. Sometimes, he said "no." When you pray for something bad to happen to ourselves or to someone else, regardless of whether WE define them as good or bad, he says "No."
God is an omnipotent being, the Creator of all things, the Father of Jesus the Christ, and he is everywhere and in everything.

From what you have said so far, you've posed you think of a god that is, at least from what I gather (correct me if I'm wrong) the typical Christian god - omnipresence and omnipotence included in this, and as long as it is the typical Christian god, omniscience too. You've also said there is a devil. If this is the case, then how do you explain what I see to be a contradiction between the presence of god in the devil, that he created all things as you say which would include the devil, which means he made the basic nature of the devil, as he was omniscient also knew what this devil would go and do from the start when he was making him and had the power to stop him, yet didn't. Again, if this IS the Christian God you are talking about, he's also supposed to be "omnibenevolent", meaning he doesn't WANT bad things happening like that. So then, why would he do this/let this happen? As long as this is the Christian god you are talking about with the omnibenevolence and such, then if you want to bring up the free will defense, please see the post I made above on the Problem of Evil and about the Free Will Defense. Also, you mentioned he answers all "prayers" -- would this include the devil's if the devil made any? And if he ultimately is the decider of what is or isn't good for ourselves or anyone/anything else, than isn't that an over-ride of free will as it is being defined in this case? He'd answer requests, but only requests he agrees with as being good -- really it means that he's intervening on behalf of those who want things he likes to alter and change things.

Yes, I believe in the typical Christain God. And yes, I believe that he created the devil. He created the Angel of Light, Lucifer, and when he did he knew that Lucifer would turn against him. No, he doesn't WANT bad things to happen, but he does let them. He lets them happen to us, because we don't ask for him help. Think of him like the police. If you get robbed, but don't call the police, well, you've been robbed, but if you call the police they'll go after the thief and (hopefully) bring your stuff back to you. I belive that, if the Devil decided to make a prayer (and as he wants to replace God and is his sworn enemy, I find it doubtful that he would) then God would answer it. He would mostly likely say "no," but he would answer it. And I didn't say he didn't answer requests, he just doesn't always answer them in the way we want him to. He operates on a moral standard, which he even wrote out for us in the Ten Commandments, and if you ask him to do something that violates the laws he set up, then he'll say no. Again, I turn to the parable/analogy of the policemen. If you ask a policeman to help you catch a thief, he will, but if you ask him to do something like kill someone so you can steal his wife, he'll say no.  

[bluecherry]

As long as a policeman knows something illegal is going on while he's on duty, you don't HAVE to ask for help. Just like even if nobody is there to witness a crime, besides those doing it (who obviously aren't going to ask to be stopped), and ask for help a policeman would still try to stop a crime and catch criminals. Your analogy of the policeman fails because the Christian god is, unlike a policeman, 1) supposed to be always on "duty", 2) "omniscient", and 3) "omnipotent."

 

[Reptiliac]

will the flood behind me?

That's up to you to decide if there is one or not.

put out the fire inside?

 

[Vampire_chick92]

A Moment In Subtext

Brwcrw3

So many Good & Bad things in the world, left unexplained. Was it caused by humans, is there really a seprate body up there....or down there?

If there is a god why did 9/11 happen cause so much distress and trouble, God is supposed to keep the world sane, make sure that there is as little hate but so far there has only been trouble.

Why do we pray, it almost never happens to come true. If It did happen I would have been dead long ago when I prayed every day to god that something will kill me.

What or Where is god?

I believe that there is a god. He is a seperate being, but is in everything in existance. There is also the Devil, Lucifer, the fallen angel of light.
God gives people free will, so that they may choose to worship him, the love him, or to turn away from him. And when we choose to turn away the Devil has the ability to work on us. And then bad things do happen.
God always answers our prayers. It just isn't always with an answer we like. Sometimes, he said "no." When you pray for something bad to happen to ourselves or to someone else, regardless of whether WE define them as good or bad, he says "No."
God is an omnipotent being, the Creator of all things, the Father of Jesus the Christ, and he is everywhere and in everything.

you could've just said you're a devoute christian...  

[Demoire]

Brwcrw3

So many Good & Bad things in the world, left unexplained. Was it caused by humans, is there really a seprate body up there....or down there?

If there is a god why did 9/11 happen..

Without evil, what is good?

Without good, what is evil?

Good can exist on its own.

But on behalf of the birthing of freewill.

Evil has been birthed as well.

For if only good existed, what is freewill?

How shall we choose?

What shall we choose over?

Evil, is mearly a flaw of good.

It thrives on its existence, as a byproduct.

Thus there is destruction, hatred, dispare, disasters.

But where is destruction, with nothing to destroy.

Where is hatred, with nothing to hate.

Where is dispare, with nothing to dispare over.

Where is disaster, with nothing in its path.

 

[bluecherry]

The free will defense against the problem of evil is what you're saying. If you could answer how this works against all the things I brought up in my first post in this topic that would be appreciated. wink

 

[Drag Hustler]

From what i see...we are all gods...
We rule our own minds...and our minds create the earth we know today. We are in control.

Its to a point, simple.

Thats only my opinion.