Government Assistance My Butt!

[Malheureux]

Amarella Harte

Kei Kat: Your missing the point. I said they shouldn't be legally responsible. They should be morally responsible.

The reason the law shouldn't make them legally responsible is because by law the woman does not have to get her husbands permission to have an abortion. i.e. she chooses to include him in the decision making process if she wants or not to include him, but in a court of law, the responsibility for the decision rests entirely on her shoulders. She cannot say he wanted the baby too – it’s her body not his. He cannot take her to court and insist that she carry the baby to term because he wants it.

In other words married or not, she can give him a baby that he does not want to be responsible for, and make him be responsible for it. He cannot make her have a baby she does not want to be responsible for much less make her be responsible for it. Until he has that right, the law should not force him to be responsible even if he should be.

(Which by the way, I DO believe he should be. Just not by law until they change the abortion laws.)

As far as abortion goes, I think all parties involved should have a say. I think they should ask the child. Yeah, I know the kid can't speak for itself, so they should wait until it can and then ask... "Your mom wants to murder you, what do you think?" stare  

[Siumbering Princess22]

Amarella Harte

I don't believe men should have to pay child support legally. Morally yes, legally no.

The reason is the abortion laws.
1.A woman's body is entirely her own
2.The decision to carry/not carry the child to full term is entirely her own
3.Then the responsibility should be her own as well, it was her choice.

This includes men who divorce their wives after children are born because the decision was still legally the woman's choice.

I see the abortion/child support laws together, as a bunch of whiny women who don't want to be responsible for their own actions, but instead want everyone else to pay for their actions no matter which side of the fence they choose. They want their cake and they want to eat it to.

Fair to both men and women would be no abortion but child support or no child support but abortion.

As for taking it away. If you owe money it must be paid. Whether it comes from your check or theirs (It should all be going to the same places anyway). If you don't owe the money then that is a matter you'll just have to go through the headache of clearing up.

wow that is kinda sad. So it is strictly the womans fault that shes pregnant, and the man shouldn't be legally made to pay for the baby he helped make because she decided to keep it????

it isnt a mothers choice alone to become pregnant in the first place. So her deciding whether to keep it or not is not a place she got to on her own. The baby was created by both people, and so whether she decides to keep it or not. He needs to own up to his responsibility of taking care of that child if she decides to keep it. Its no less the mans responsibility because she decided to keep it. It should be made legal...men get away with not helping with children they make now. And how dare you even begin to say that its a womans responsibility. Its BOTH, and whether theres abortion or no abortion. It is just as much a mans responsibility, and he should therefor be helping to support the child he helped make.  

[Siumbering Princess22]

ThisEmptySoul

I find it kind of interesting that the solution is often "if he doesn't like it, he should keep it in his pants" when it comes to children and child support. You realize it takes two to make a baby, right? On top of that, contrary to popular belief, sometimes men are pressured into sex because they don't know what else to do to make their woman happy.

For example, the relationship may have been going well for a while, but then suddenly... seemingly out of no where, the girlfriend starts becoming distant and accusing him of not loving her anymore. For the woman, there may be a list of reasons that have just built up over time that the man never noticed because she never said anything, but to the man it seems completely random {not that he was being "uncaring" or "insensitive"; men just aren't mind readers. If something is bothering you, we need to know.}

Not knowing where the problem is coming from nor how to fix it, intimacy seems like the best option because it doesn't require possibly getting into an argument to try and fix. Sometimes men really do have sex without wanting it because they think it will make their woman happy.

I don't like it when women blame the man for pregnancy... they both agree to have sex {of course, unless it was rape}, and thus the responsibility belongs to them both.

lol are you giving a simple out for men saying basically "sometimes we just have sex with you cuz we dont know what else to do" and because of that it isn't their fault their gf/wife is now pregnant?? Im glad at the end of that you say it is both peoples fault, because it is. But in no way can a woman pressure a man into having sex with them *unless rape is involved*. You have a mind of your own and if because your girlfriend/wife is upset at you and you aren't sure why so you decide to stick it in her knowing she isn't on the pill with no condom on c** in her and get her knocked up then it is definitely your fault as well as hers. But don't give the excuse "well sometimes we just don't know how else to make you happy" what a typical man excuse.  

[ThisEmptySoul]

Read the last part again... I said it is both of their faults. I was not saying it was the woman's fault nor that men were completely free of blame... I was saying that the fault did not lie solely on the man for not "keeping it in his pants" as someone else was claiming when I posted that and elaborating on a point that many women don't seem to understand.

Yes, the final decision to have sex is still something a man has control over {unless it's rape}, however that in no way means he cannot be pressured into it, just as a woman can be pressured into sex. He might agree to it, but that doesn't mean he wanted it all along. In the case of women, they can just turn back and say it was rape even if they agreed to it because no one is going to question them, but for a man to say, "My girlfriend practically raped me" because she pressured him into having sex, he will be a laughing stock because people think men are supposed to want sex.

I actually find it kind of offensive for you to say that "in no way can a woman pressure a man into having sex with them". Of course they can! Just because it's a stereotype for men to "always want sex" doesn't mean they actually do. Believe it or not, men do have feelings and sometimes we also are not "in the mood" or we actually do want to wait until marriage.

It's also because of that mindset that some women pressure men into sex. They figure that he must already want it just because he's a guy and if he says, "No", that just makes it some kind of game to get him to break down, or they think it's some kind of joke. After all, what reason could a guy possibly have to turn down sex? Men love sex! stare

*Edit* By the way, it's almost always a bad idea to get the law involved with moral issues because you don't know where it's going to end. For example, "back in the day" a lot of people thought consuming alcohol was immoral and so the prohibition made it illegal which in the end caused more problems than allowing people to drink alcohol ever did. Many still see alcohol consumption as immoral, but making it illegal doesn't help. Instead, people just talk about the dangers and effects, discourage, get counseling and so on to try to get their friends, family, etc. to not drink or stop drinking.

How does this apply to child support? Perhaps friends and family could help support the mother, and people could be encouraged to be more wise about who they choose to have sex with and how they go about it instead of just deciding to have sex one day and panicking when pregnancy occurs. Yes, there will still be men who run out on women just as there are still drunk drivers and alcohol related crimes, but the current laws regarding child support aren't stopping it either, now are they?  

[Kisaki Kitsune-Hi]

Slumbering Princess

Amarella Harte

I don't believe men should have to pay child support legally. Morally yes, legally no.

The reason is the abortion laws.
1.A woman's body is entirely her own
2.The decision to carry/not carry the child to full term is entirely her own
3.Then the responsibility should be her own as well, it was her choice.

This includes men who divorce their wives after children are born because the decision was still legally the woman's choice.

I see the abortion/child support laws together, as a bunch of whiny women who don't want to be responsible for their own actions, but instead want everyone else to pay for their actions no matter which side of the fence they choose. They want their cake and they want to eat it to.

Fair to both men and women would be no abortion but child support or no child support but abortion.

As for taking it away. If you owe money it must be paid. Whether it comes from your check or theirs (It should all be going to the same places anyway). If you don't owe the money then that is a matter you'll just have to go through the headache of clearing up.

wow that is kinda sad. So it is strictly the womans fault that shes pregnant, and the man shouldn't be legally made to pay for the baby he helped make because she decided to keep it????

it isnt a mothers choice alone to become pregnant in the first place. So her deciding whether to keep it or not is not a place she got to on her own. The baby was created by both people, and so whether she decides to keep it or not. He needs to own up to his responsibility of taking care of that child if she decides to keep it. Its no less the mans responsibility because she decided to keep it. It should be made legal...men get away with not helping with children they make now. And how dare you even begin to say that its a womans responsibility. Its BOTH, and whether theres abortion or no abortion. It is just as much a mans responsibility, and he should therefor be helping to support the child he helped make.

I agree. It isn't a woman's choice alone to become pregnant. Like the guy doesn't know what could happen if/when they have sex. If it's his sperm, around or not, had a say in keeping the baby or not, it's HIS baby too, and should be made to take care of it.

Too many people neglect children anymore, both men and women alike. And to have a parent totally abandon you and leave you to be supported by just one person is just sad, and a lack of resposibilty.  

[Siumbering Princess22]

ThisEmptySoul

Read the last part again... I said it is both of their faults. I was not saying it was the woman's fault nor that men were completely free of blame... I was saying that the fault did not lie solely on the man for not "keeping it in his pants" as someone else was claiming when I posted that and elaborating on a point that many women don't seem to understand.

Yes, the final decision to have sex is still something a man has control over {unless it's rape}, however that in no way means he cannot be pressured into it, just as a woman can be pressured into sex. He might agree to it, but that doesn't mean he wanted it all along. In the case of women, they can just turn back and say it was rape even if they agreed to it because no one is going to question them, but for a man to say, "My girlfriend practically raped me" because she pressured him into having sex, he will be a laughing stock because people think men are supposed to want sex.

I actually find it kind of offensive for you to say that "in no way can a woman pressure a man into having sex with them". Of course they can! Just because it's a stereotype for men to "always want sex" doesn't mean they actually do. Believe it or not, men do have feelings and sometimes we also are not "in the mood" or we actually do want to wait until marriage.

It's also because of that mindset that some women pressure men into sex. They figure that he must already want it just because he's a guy and if he says, "No", that just makes it some kind of game to get him to break down, or they think it's some kind of joke. After all, what reason could a guy possibly have to turn down sex? Men love sex! stare

*Edit* By the way, it's almost always a bad idea to get the law involved with moral issues because you don't know where it's going to end. For example, "back in the day" a lot of people thought consuming alcohol was immoral and so the prohibition made it illegal which in the end caused more problems than allowing people to drink alcohol ever did. Many still see alcohol consumption as immoral, but making it illegal doesn't help. Instead, people just talk about the dangers and effects, discourage, get counseling and so on to try to get their friends, family, etc. to not drink or stop drinking.

How does this apply to child support? Perhaps friends and family could help support the mother, and people could be encouraged to be more wise about who they choose to have sex with and how they go about it instead of just deciding to have sex one day and panicking when pregnancy occurs. Yes, there will still be men who run out on women just as there are still drunk drivers and alcohol related crimes, but the current laws regarding child support aren't stopping it either, now are they?

I hate the color font you choose to use. Which is why I usually just skip over anything you post, because it's pointless trying to read it. If you read what I had said I did say I was glad to see you atleast do think its both partners fault, and not just one.

I never said that I think that men could just not be interested in having sex, and that a woman could try and pressure a man into it. But that STILL is his fault. EVERYONE has a mind of their own, and make their own decisions. If it wasn't forced and it was purely pressure then I call him a wimp for not having a mind of his own and sticking to what he felt was right for him. Maybe I am not use to these people who do things that they don't wanna do to make someone happy. I make my own decision regardless of what the person I'm with tries to pressure me into. So if you are willing to "give in to pressure" then you are obligated to take care of the child you may have created out of that moment of weakness. And to let the guy get away with it because of a "moment of weakness" is ridiculous and sad. Sometimes it isn't a good idea to get the law involved. But in this case the law should 100% be involved.

Pressure is simply that...pressure. You have a mind use it..if you fail to do so then deal with the consequences of the poor choices you've made

 

[ThisEmptySoul]

Slumbering Princess

I hate the color font you choose to use.

Join the club. Many people either learn to deal with it or ignore it all together. Highlighting helps.

Slumbering Princess

But that STILL is his fault. EVERYONE has a mind of their own, and make their own decisions. If it wasn't forced and it was purely pressure then I call him a wimp for not having a mind of his own and sticking to what he felt was right for him.

Do you call yourself a wimp for being a single mother? Women have minds of their own as well and it is just as much the woman's fault that she's pregnant as it is the man's. It's not that, "Because the man gave in, it's purely his fault"... the woman has the same responsibility to not have sex or to make sure contraceptives are used if she is not ready for children.

Slumbering Princess

And to let the guy get away with it because of a "moment of weakness" is ridiculous and sad. Sometimes it isn't a good idea to get the law involved. But in this case the law should 100% be involved.

Again, you are jumping to conclusions. I said it is both of their faults and therefore it is both of their responsibilities. I did not say at any point that a man should "get away with it" because he was pressured into sex. I simply explained that it's not entirely the man's fault that the woman is pregnant in the first place as women seem to often try to imply. Often women blame the man for their poor situation, but they are just as much to blame for it.

I completely disagree that "the law should be 100% involved". I'm sure you've seen the other threads around here in which women actually don't want the man to pay child support because they don't want him in their lives anymore. Asking for his money leaves the door wide open for him to come back into your life, whether you want him to or not. Some men will even decide to take the children away because they figure if they are going to be paying for them, then they might as well have them... or just to spite the mother for trying to get his money.

On top of that, the current child support system, as this thread creator pointed out, will not always guarantee that you get the money because there's a middle man involved, and at times it ends up costing more than the children actually get because you have to pay the middle men.

Additionally, money does not equal taking responsibility. Sure money can be seen as a part of it because there are financial requirements involved with raising a child, but the actual act of raising the child and caring for them is what I would consider actual responsibility. If he is not there for that and you don't want him there for that, then what's the point in asking for his money?

It also baffles me when a woman still insists on her ex paying child support when she is in a new relationship and has enough support from her new relationship and/or family and friends to be able to raise her child properly without the child support money.

The reason child support was established was so that single parents would not struggle financially to raise a child... not as a revenge tactic as some people seem to think it is. If you are in a new relationship, then you are no longer a single parent. You have someone there supporting you and therefore should not be taking someone else's money, even if it is their child.

I have actually seen child support work against more women than I have seen it work for. Case in point, my sister ended up having her children taken away because she tried to get child support from her ex... now -she's- paying child support, and she's the one that's taking care of them most of the time because he has one excuse or another as to why he "can't". If she had just gone on with her life, or better yet... had been more careful about who she was having sex with in the first place, then she wouldn't be in as bad of a situation. Child support did not help her at all... it only made things worse.

Ideally, I think the guy should stick around to help raise his own child, and that would be taking responsibility.... however, if the woman does not want him in her life anymore, then she should not be asking for his money.

Slumbering Princess

You have a mind use it..if you fail to do so then deal with the consequences of the poor choices you've made

Some sound advice that perhaps you should be listening to instead of complaining about men and playing victim.

Before you go on another rant about me "defending men that run out on women", just remember that I am a married man with no illegitimate children and have been in a committed relationship for over 5 years. I think if you want to talk about being responsible, then talk about being responsible enough to not have children you're not ready for in the first place.  

[Shinigami Unity]

I'm not a man hater.

However, I do want to point out that in the case of an illegitimate child, the mother is granted automatic custody. That makes it a lot easier for the man to "skip out." Even though it takes two to tango. I know a lot of great men who never get to see their children because of this.

Also, in some cases the state will try to take child support regardless of what the custodial parent wants. When I was on TANIF, this happened. the state did this so it could get some money back from him to what it was giving me.

Thirdly, in a custody battle the courts are more likely to keep custody with the woman because of outdated ideals. This did not work in my case, however, as I pay child support (he is still paying the state back)

There are a lot of rotten guys out there. However, I sometimes think that us ladies (and there are few of them too - and sometimes I am not one) are a little harsh.

Everyone has a mind of their own, but it takes a tremendous effort to assert that mind sometimes.