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 Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:53 am
damaged-reality "The Christian God sends people to hell who don't believe in him" - False Who does God send to Hell? In truth, not many people, even atheists. He doesn't judge people on whether or not they believe in him, but more of whether or not they make bad decisions. He sends people to Hell if they do bad things AND ARN"T SORRY FOR THIER CRIMES. Jews, and Budists, and Muslims all have the same chance of getting into Heaven as long as they are sorry for the bad things that they have done! The God that we Catholics worship is a forgiving and flexible God. He doesn't send, for example, Lollypopians (a religion I made up just as an example), to hell if they worship The lollypop god, because he understands that they were born into thier faith, and or probably just as faithful to thier god as Christians are to thiers! And this IS NOT THE LOLLYPOPIANS FAULT! It also isn't my fault for being a Christian, and neither is this a fault in the first place! "Do not go after false gods, and do not make metal images of gods for yourselves: I am the Lord your God." "Don't go after false gods; they cannot help you or save you, for they are not real." "For all the gods of the nations are false gods; but the Lord made the heavens." "Shamed be all those who give worship to images, and take pride in false gods; give him worship, all you gods." "The LORD rules the whole earth, and he is more glorious than all the false gods." "But that we give them orders to keep themselves from things offered to false gods" "For this cause, my dear brothers, give no worship to false gods." "As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites. Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done." -God then tears his kingdom from him, throws adversaries at him "For three sins of Judah, even for four, I will not turn back {my wrath}. ...because they have been led astray by false gods, the gods their ancestors followed," "And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:" "And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves." "And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, and the gods of Syria, and the gods of Zidon, and the gods of Moab, and the gods of the children of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines, and forsook the LORD, and served not him." It's not just those who worship false gods, but the unbelievers too""The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." "And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." - Not hell, but not the righteous, omnipotent god you're trying to portray. God even damands that we do not associate with non-believers:"blessed is the one who does not... sit in the assembly of scoffers!" "do not associate with rebels" I didn't read much about forgiveness on the basis of being born into a different religeon. Nor would that make any sense, as unlike Judaism, Christianity has always had a fairly aggressive conversion policy; Ie: rather than axccepting religeon as a birthright, it clearly portrays it as a choice. [Note: the wording in the bible at any mention of religeous conversion; it's always "turned away from", "turned to", "chose to", etc].
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:31 am
Meeatu damaged-reality "The Christian God sends people to hell who don't believe in him" - False Who does God send to Hell? In truth, not many people, even atheists. He doesn't judge people on whether or not they believe in him, but more of whether or not they make bad decisions. He sends people to Hell if they do bad things AND ARN"T SORRY FOR THIER CRIMES. Jews, and Budists, and Muslims all have the same chance of getting into Heaven as long as they are sorry for the bad things that they have done! The God that we Catholics worship is a forgiving and flexible God. He doesn't send, for example, Lollypopians (a religion I made up just as an example), to hell if they worship The lollypop god, because he understands that they were born into thier faith, and or probably just as faithful to thier god as Christians are to thiers! And this IS NOT THE LOLLYPOPIANS FAULT! It also isn't my fault for being a Christian, and neither is this a fault in the first place! "Do not go after false gods, and do not make metal images of gods for yourselves: I am the Lord your God." "Don't go after false gods; they cannot help you or save you, for they are not real." "For all the gods of the nations are false gods; but the Lord made the heavens." "Shamed be all those who give worship to images, and take pride in false gods; give him worship, all you gods." "The LORD rules the whole earth, and he is more glorious than all the false gods." "But that we give them orders to keep themselves from things offered to false gods" "For this cause, my dear brothers, give no worship to false gods." "As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites. Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done." -God then tears his kingdom from him, throws adversaries at him "For three sins of Judah, even for four, I will not turn back {my wrath}. ...because they have been led astray by false gods, the gods their ancestors followed," "And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:" "And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and forgat the LORD their God, and served Baalim and the groves." "And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, and the gods of Syria, and the gods of Zidon, and the gods of Moab, and the gods of the children of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines, and forsook the LORD, and served not him." It's not just those who worship false gods, but the unbelievers too""The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." "And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." - Not hell, but not the righteous, omnipotent god you're trying to portray. God even damands that we do not associate with non-believers:"blessed is the one who does not... sit in the assembly of scoffers!" "do not associate with rebels" I didn't read much about forgiveness on the basis of being born into a different religeon. Nor would that make any sense, as unlike Judaism, Christianity has always had a fairly aggressive conversion policy; Ie: rather than axccepting religeon as a birthright, it clearly portrays it as a choice. [Note: the wording in the bible at any mention of religeous conversion; it's always "turned away from", "turned to", "chose to", etc].Just curious, I honestly mean no offense I'm just curious like I said, what version of the Bible did you get those from? There are at least 5 English versions I've come across and all of them have the same passages but they are worded differently.
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:36 am
Honestly, it's a duty of a Christian (and anyone who is religious) to look into the history of the texts they read. The old testament stuff was written by men and reflects a VERY militant history. Take notice of how many battles there are in the scriptures. Notice how "God" is helping them kill their enemies. Now compare that to the New Testament. Dare i say a kinder, gentler God?
Also, in regards to lines quoted from leviticus, numbers, and deuteronomy, much of the laws regarding food back then dealt with sanitation and health problems. As for the "gay" lines, we're talking about a culture who believed that their soul was passed down to their children upon death - hence why Sarah's being barren was a concern to Abraham and why he begat Ishmael.
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:40 am
Kari Twilight Mist Just curious, I honestly mean no offense I'm just curious like I said, what version of the Bible did you get those from? There are at least 5 English versions I've come across and all of them have the same passages but they are worded differently. I'll admit to a fairly modern Bible. I think it's the 'new international' Bible. Though, the quotes exist in one form or another in most versions :]
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:06 am
Meeatu *snipped lots of biblical quotes More importantly, are those from the Old Testament or the New Testament? The Old Testamant is all fire and brimstone, and sacrifice, and genocide. The New Testament is where the love and peace comes from. Jesus's teaching are very different from the laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy EDIT: I've just noticed Wolfram Asher Davidson has made pretty much the same point above redface
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:39 am
Vociferous Virtuoso In my opinion, God is just, God is forgiving, and God is kind. Here's how the Christian God works in my faithful opinion: If you believe in God, you will go to Heaven. If you have never been exposed to God, and a "false" religion has been forced down your throat, you will go to Heaven. If you die a young child or a newborn, you will go to Heaven. I'm sorry but could you please expand on what you mean by "false" religion?
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:58 am
PHEW! I thought that you were another gay hater, posting 'OMG TEH GOD IZ GONNA SEND ALL OF YOUZ TAH HELL CUZ UR GAY AND HE NO LIEK GAYS.' I believe that God loves everyone, no matter their sexuality. It's horrible that people go around exploiting the bible and God, just to say they hate gay people in a very horrible way. I tell them off, sometimes. But yes, you are very right in what yah said :3
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:12 pm
PandoraCaitiff Meeatu *snipped lots of biblical quotes More importantly, are those from the Old Testament or the New Testament? The Old Testamant is all fire and brimstone, and sacrifice, and genocide. The New Testament is where the love and peace comes from. Jesus's teaching are very different from the laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy EDIT: I've just noticed Wolfram Asher Davidson has made pretty much the same point above redface They are from both, I made sure of that :] Idolatry wasn't really let up on between them. But cafeteria Christianity annoys me. If you do not follow the old testament, you ARE NOT Christian. The entirety of Christianity is founded on the principle that God is omnipotent, benevolent, and infallible. As such, when he says "these are my words incarnate" you must believe him, and cannot pick and choose which passages to believe and which to not. To do so is to go against the fundamental core beliefs of Christianity. Even if you could, it is arguable that the old testament is the closest to gods own hand, why would you not follow that, rather than the new testament: Because it doesn't sit well with you? If that's the case, you are directly asserting your knowledge over Gods own. You are claiming you know better and that your sense of morality overruled his word. This is direct defiance of god, as well as also breaking the aforementioned principles of Christianity. TL;DR version: - From both testaments. - If you don't believe ALL of the bible, you ARE NOT Christian.
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:12 pm
I don't believe that god sends anyone to hell, because I don't believe in hell. I also don't think it is justifiable for anyone under any circumstances to condemn anyone to eternal damnation. And even if it did exist, who are we as humans to decide who goes where? Based on an assumption from several vague bible verses, people preach against homosexuality, and catagorize anyone who 'chooses' it in the 'burn for all eternity' pile. I believe in an all-loving God. That and Hell do not seem compatible in my mind.
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:05 pm
Leinad1382 I don't believe that god sends anyone to hell, because I don't believe in hell. I also don't think it is justifiable for anyone under any circumstances to condemn anyone to eternal damnation. And even if it did exist, who are we as humans to decide who goes where? Based on an assumption from several vague bible verses, people preach against homosexuality, and catagorize anyone who 'chooses' it in the 'burn for all eternity' pile. I believe in an all-loving God. That and Hell do not seem compatible in my mind. I agree with you very much. I just cannot consolidate that as any form of Christianity. Christians must not ask "who are we to decide who goes to hell?" But instead, "Who are we, as humans, to decide that we know better than god who should go - He says the homosexuals go there, as a human, I have no right to argue."
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Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:13 am
I would like to point out that according to the bibgle;
Sodom and Gamora (SP?) happened because they violated the covenant by being cruel and unkind to guests. Lot was spared because he was the only one who offered hospitality. Everyone else died.
It had nothing to do with gay people at all, and it's ridiculous that they use a story about being kind to others as a tool to oppress and entire group of people.
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Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:02 am
Meeatu Leinad1382 I don't believe that god sends anyone to hell, because I don't believe in hell. I also don't think it is justifiable for anyone under any circumstances to condemn anyone to eternal damnation. And even if it did exist, who are we as humans to decide who goes where? Based on an assumption from several vague bible verses, people preach against homosexuality, and catagorize anyone who 'chooses' it in the 'burn for all eternity' pile. I believe in an all-loving God. That and Hell do not seem compatible in my mind. I agree with you very much. I just cannot consolidate that as any form of Christianity. Christians must not ask "who are we to decide who goes to hell?" But instead, "Who are we, as humans, to decide that we know better than god who should go - He says the homosexuals go there, as a human, I have no right to argue." I don't claim to be a christian. I just don't believe that God would condemn anyone to eternal damnation. To me, that is a jealous God who is angry at you for violating his rules, and jealousy is a very human emotion. Would a higher being even experience it? That's why I'm no longer a christian. Don't worry about me being a cafeteria christian, I have seperated myself from that particular faith. I believe what is in my heart over what is in a book.
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Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:44 am
Luciferin Bandit I would like to point out that according to the bibgle; Sodom and Gamora (SP?) happened because they violated the covenant by being cruel and unkind to guests. Lot was spared because he was the only one who offered hospitality. Everyone else died. It had nothing to do with gay people at all, and it's ridiculous that they use a story about being kind to others as a tool to oppress and entire group of people.
*Gomorrah
And this, mostly. There's a difference, as people above have pointed out, between the OT and the NT. And in my view, it's this: The Old Testament is where we came from, where we learned everything we knew at the time. It's the Articles of Confederation of the Bible. Then we have the New Testament, which is the teachings that focus more on living life with love and kindness, which is what the focus of the Bible was meant to be. The New Testament is like, the Constitution. That's it. Nothing more.
Kansha Shimasu, Mekagami Haru
Mizugatsu.
Captain of Squad Eight.
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Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:54 am
Meeatu But cafeteria Christianity annoys me. If you do not follow the old testament, you ARE NOT Christian. The entirety of Christianity is founded on the principle that God is omnipotent, benevolent, and infallible. As such, when he says "these are my words incarnate" you must believe him, and cannot pick and choose which passages to believe and which to not. To do so is to go against the fundamental core beliefs of Christianity. God may be infallible, but man isn't. You've heard of the Apochrypha right? Gods word laid down to his prophets? Except the Catholic church decided that these books weren't "real" and those that got into the bible were. And its not even as if people can agree on the Old Testament. Catholics and Protestanats are both Christians right? So why do they differe so much in their beliefs? And the Torah comes from the samne source as the Bible. So why is Judaism different from mainstream Christianity? You're a True Christian right? Do you have a tattoo? (forbidden by Levitcus 19:28 ) Have you eaten a rare steak (forbidden by Leviticus 19:26) Stood up to respect the elderly whenever in their presence? (proscribed by Leviticus 19:32) Worn clothing made of more than one material (Leviticus 19:19)
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:31 am
PandoraCaitiff God may be infallible, but man isn't. You've heard of the Apochrypha right? Gods word laid down to his prophets? Except the Catholic church decided that these books weren't "real" and those that got into the bible were. And its not even as if people can agree on the Old Testament. Catholics and Protestanats are both Christians right? So why do they differe so much in their beliefs? And the Torah comes from the samne source as the Bible. So why is Judaism different from mainstream Christianity? You're a True Christian right? Do you have a tattoo? (forbidden by Levitcus 19:28 ) Have you eaten a rare steak (forbidden by Leviticus 19:26) Stood up to respect the elderly whenever in their presence? (proscribed by Leviticus 19:32) Worn clothing made of more than one material (Leviticus 19:19) True, but as a believer of any of those faiths, one must hold true that their particular version of the bible is God's word incarnate - Ie: uninfluenced by misinterpretation, translation error or poor historianship - else, one would be pointing out flaws in God. This includes the decision to rule out the book of Mary and the such. "You're a True Christian right?" Hahahahaha no, no! nothing close. I'm an atheist to the bone. Merely annoyed by the 'pick-and-choose' self-serving attitude that people hold towards much of Christianity. You either follow Christian ideology to the letter, or you stop calling yourself Christian! Yes, I have a tattoo, adore rare steak (blue, often), worn clothing made of a ******** of rubbish, etc. I also don't stone my children, sell my wife etc (though I do stand up for and show respect to the elderly razz The difference is: I'm not morally bound to, I'm atheistic.
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