Religious Debate-- Christianity vs Islam-- First Debate--

[Rednal]

Like this one?

Quote:

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) - O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have right over you. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers.

And we've got

Quote:

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. (from Ephesians 5, ESV)

But, shockingly, both sides have many situations where this isn't quite followed. XD; Besides what any scriptures say, I think each faith has a responsibility to see that those who follow it actually are falling short; it's hard to say that any religion believes a certain thing if it's not actually practiced.

Of course, there are a lot of Christians and Muslims in the world. o.O A few examples in the news of other behavior isn't exactly a good measure for how most of a church acts on a regular basis.  

[Islamic Teacher]

Rednal

Like this one?

Quote:

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) - O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have right over you. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers.

And we've got

Quote:

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. (from Ephesians 5, ESV)

But, shockingly, both sides have many situations where this isn't quite followed. XD; Besides what any scriptures say, I think each faith has a responsibility to see that those who follow it actually are falling short; it's hard to say that any religion believes a certain thing if it's not actually practiced.

Of course, there are a lot of Christians and Muslims in the world. o.O A few examples in the news of other behavior isn't exactly a good measure for how most of a church acts on a regular basis.

When it comes to Women, Religion has very little to do with it. It's usually the Culture that decides the woman's place in society  

[Rednal]

I hear that Islam is more than just a religion, though, it's a way of life that encompasses daily actions and manners as well as national laws. I hear. If that's even vaguely approaching the truth, shouldn't the culture of Muslims be impacted very strongly by their faith?  

[Islamic Teacher]

Rednal

I hear that Islam is more than just a religion, though, it's a way of life that encompasses daily actions and manners as well as national laws. I hear. If that's even vaguely approaching the truth, shouldn't the culture of Muslims be impacted very strongly by their faith?

Indeed, Islam is Our Muslim way of Life, however the cultures in different Muslim countries such as Libya,Syria,Egypt,Palestine,Iraq, and Indonesia are by far very different. We all Believe in the Quran and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)  

[Rednal]

Oh, yeah, speaking of prophets...

http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?page=1&t=23518151#347765557

Your thoughts?  

[Garland-Green]

Khalid Ibn Walid

These are questions that have bothered me for some time, since I see an increase in what I would call anti-christian attitude in many Muslim countries.
How come you have so much strong hatred towards Christians in many Islamic countries? You would have to agree with me that the truth can never be forced with violence on anyone... It wouldn't be a true belief if your hands are twisted to have you confess with your mouth what your heart doesn't believe.

Why is it punishable by death to convert from Islam to Christianity in countries such as Iran? Where does attitudes such as: "Raping women is ok, if they are Christian, come from? How come it is punishable by death to be gay, or to commit adultery in some Islamic countries? I could give examples, a plenitude of examples if you'd like.

Does the Quran not allow for forgiveness and repentance?
Is the problem interpretation of the Quran, or what the Quran actually says?
We are told to turn the other cheek and forgive seventy times seven, do you have anything similar in the Quran?

Are believers in Allah different (their attitude) towards Christians, in your country then most other countries? Am I generalizing when I say that it seem the majority of Muslim countries don't take well to converts (those that convert from Islam to another religion)? I live in a small community with a few Muslims that have moved here, one of them said he was warned that if he showed up at the local church here it would have consequences for him. I also know of people in my country who have been scolded with hot burning water when they have converted from Islam to Christianity.


Grand Ayatollah Declares All Christian Women May be Raped


Islamic Mob Burns Down Church in Egypt  

[Islamic Teacher]

Read these verses in the Quran about Jews and Christians and you'll know what we Muslims think about you

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, 'We are Christians': because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. (The Noble Quran, 5:82)"

"Say: 'O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).' (The Noble Quran, 3:64)"

"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. (The Noble Quran, 3:199)"

"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 3:113-114)"

"Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (The Noble Quran, 2:62)"

"Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (The Noble Quran, 2:112)"

"Those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and establish regular prayers and regular charity, will have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (The Noble Quran, 2:277)"

Of the people of Moses (i.e., the Jews) there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (The Noble Quran, 7:159)"

"Ye [Muslims] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in God. If only the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (The Noble Quran 3:110)"

"And they say: 'None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.' Those are their (vain) desires. Say: 'Produce your proof if ye are truthful.' (The Noble Quran, 2:111)"

"A section of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians during Prophet Muhammad's time] say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers [Muslims], but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam). (The Noble Quran, 3:72)"

"Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: 'The Guidance of God,-that is the (only) Guidance.' Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against God. (The Noble Quran, 2:120)"

"They say: 'Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation).' Say thou: 'Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with God.' (The Noble Quran, 2:135)"  

[Rednal]

Quote:

Strongest among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, 'We are Christians': because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. (The Noble Quran, 5:82)"

Considering some Muslim countries declared war on Israel literally hours after it was created, and all that's gone on since... yes, yes I can totally believe that there is enmity. I understand that Christians, Jews, and Muslims used to do more theological things together; 'tis unfortunate that doesn't happen much these days...

Quote:

"Say: 'O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).' (The Noble Quran, 3:64)"

I have no problems with saying that Muslims bow to the will of Allah/God as they understand it. I hesitate to say that ANYONE (Christians included) knows God's will perfectly and has no room for further growth or understanding.

Quote:

"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. (The Noble Quran, 3:199)"

To die a martyr is indeed considered a most noble act; not to be deliberately sought out by any means, but indeed, to betray God simply for comfort or convenience is not approved of. Screw that; there is no harm that can be done to us on Earth that is lasting, and death is just another step.

(So, naturally, religious conversion by force can get awkward. XD)

Quote:

"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 3:113-114)"

Hey, lookie, they're supposed to like some of us! =D

Quote:

"Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (The Noble Quran, 2:62)"

So... oh, forget the bits below, I'm just confused now. *Coughs* You were telling me before that the messages of previous prophets were distorted by their followers; okay, leaving aside why Allah would permit that, I'll just acknowledge your point for the sake of this discussion and understand that that idea is your view of things. So, uh, even if the message was distorted, this is telling me that it wasn't distorted enough to stop people from Salvation. Wait, no, let me say that another way. Your Holy Book, as revealed to Muhammed, says that Christians and Jews will be saved alongside the Muslims. Why is there so much hostility towards these faiths, then? That's... that's like... intentionally murdering a fellow believer because he's a fellow believer. Like a Grand Mufti going after a Sunni believer for being Sunni.

I don't understand this. I really don't. Are Jews and Christians supposedly saved (as Muslims would see it) or not?  

[fly_man]

It's funny that you should say it's vaguely approaching the truth. .Well
have you heard of the deciever? the father of lies?

Anyway. .All I got to say is Titus 3:9-3:11  

[The Pollen Shed]

Two questions for Khalid Ibn Walid:

1: I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet (mostly because I haven't read every post. All the bold text is a little too much for my eyes...), but is the Quran the only Scriptures for Muslims? Or do they also believe the Tawrat, Zabur and Injil? If so, do they believe all of them, or just parts? And are they equal in weight, or does one supersede another?

2: You mentioned that you are interested in opening a dialogue, but you don't think you'll change your mind on anything. So then, is this like an outreach for you? I hope you'll excuse the analogy, but is it like braving the storm in order to save misguided souls?  

[DevilinMetamorpheus]

Pardon me good sirs and madams...
Pardon to those of the Quran (did not get to read) if such relates to an old period.

Pardon to Christians here in my own beliefs true to the heart and actually apply what they do or know (or think they know).

I hate to bud into a conversation or a religious debate here and go off on a tangent here with statements or questions more.

But we must go back to time of crusades where the world almost became totally Islamic or violent to kill according to that of Saladin.

The I were thieves or violent people of the Christian though I do not dwell on the past sometimes.

The II were that of the holiest who lost their lives though there indeed was a third crusade I do not remember.

Also the world would have had religious struggles due to the contradiction of beliefs (or not that but the practice) but yes they did each probably believe or know in more according to portions with also living by that of old testament laws

A man will die by the law alone knowing they had expanded the principles of the law and that even if one would follow it perfectly they still would have their desire over that of a will.

The first bibles came out in Hebrew or that of the Greek at least according to the English language here but before was the Septuagint.

But then you look at the scrolls and find it was taken from that of many languages or Aramaic or that which is first written during a time or the people who were once there on the lands, to find the scrolls in some structure really helped, but it was said only the high priests were allowed in the holy of holy places.

What is this that God's chosen people were among the righteous when one aspect says he is a Jew (a son of god) but the other is a prophet or a priest?

Yes Jesus was a prophet, priest, and a Lord because to some relics found today if people are lucky they can actually hopefully find proof of this.

I do have to say I believe in this aspect here as one of a perception but I cannot use references to back this over time of an old testament period.

Artifacts discovered by scientists and archeologists have gotten closer to knowing everything about what could have occurred besides the resurrection of Christ from the dead and this leads people to the past of us all asking for trouble at times. Knowing we all must move forward regardless.

Yet though people are right on the fact that culture could have had an influence and that people during the time of such did not believe in doing right (that or some.).

There is indeed a situation here, as I would compare a son of God to that of Job and not one true God, yet they did not believe in a thing called the Trinity. (I and my father are one.)

Nobody come unto the father but my me.

Jesus in fact was a Jew or a Nazarene. But the strange thing here or today is in fact a question on the missing aspects of Christ's life and what happened between a 400 years with no lord as total darkness was in it before this.

Also that childhood of a lord during his childhood.

But I sometimes wonder who besides those who could actually realize this that the code of Hammurabi is mentioned somewhere in the scripture?

That was off topic and I shall say that the New testament is not usually trusted in some aspects but every religions (or some) seems to tell one how to kill rather than to love properly.

Love is not the lust of the mans nature though people have a say or so in the way they act. The woman was put there taken from man in Genesis and yes the aspect of this is a question to men, boy, or girl. But yep...

Still, they had found possible locations for the Red and the Dead Sea sights and surly there are places we cannot go due to the people and these religious struggles over something that could be proven.

Who had that heart and mind of Christ I say knowing that the ascension that Christ should rise or descend in the same manner.

That and a tomb underground somewhere might be a case for desert excavation. But surly now I know why they of the stupid did the burnings of history of the Quran and also misinterpretation among scripture which came in beginning, middle, and end.

The Apocryphal books were found in the middle.
Yet this has to do with canonization if one is catholic.

But such also is confusing to me about five or more main faiths which broke down.

Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, Methodist, and Christian.

Still it is not the differences people should look at for proper respect but rather the similarities between them.

It is like people try to preach without knowing themselves or the way they act or others want them to act in a simple translation.

It is okay to tolerate but nothing but an argument amongst each of us as a simple disagreement.

The 12 tribes had been found I think and people will know a lot more than me on this. But what was the one tribe found in historical records.

I would look back on where did the Rosetta stone also break from and that also of, well, the different possible locations of exploration. Though I would not wonder in a desert for 40 days or years hopefully.

But anyway, besides that major opinion, surely the practices for Christian and Muslim are different in the way they did offerings and such to the Lord.

If one chose a god over the other, it would question a man who knew a personality that others could not see, yet we all realize from that point of Genesis if people would think on what was a meaning of life?

Surprisingly this goes back to a doctrine of angels before the man and that which rebelled and that also which shown deceit first to the mankind. (us).

I knew something that others did not know or try to think about but it is not for me to know the mind of a Lord or his thoughts are not our thoughts and his ways are not ours.

I am a man to say this strangely in accordance to this but the reason for life was that a spirit would be alone.

It is not for me to know that power behind logic or that of a mind without understanding more about the contradictive but similar parts more of the writings.

I had read the KJV some of it, to tell the truth I have not finished the bible but it is a guide to the heart and people being convicted over some things also know that what they are doing at times is also similar to that of its past and other cultures.

Of course, some will just doubt existence and say no man could have free will, so that went along with slavery and other stereotypical means.

I am not sure how to explain some of the points I am trying to make but surely someone understands where I come from on this.

It was proven Christ was god regardless over a man cause it was a virgin birth but most do not believe that as they think Mary could of had an affair before she met Joseph.

Part of the Christian faith has been a virgin birth and that of Christ as a pure one.

Yet there is some facts that do not reflect or are perceived right because even he asked the cup of the wrath of god to be taken from him.

Similar to that of Job the bible says there was none righteous no not one, but then I look at God testing Job of the faith or something a lot more than that.

It is possible for a man not to tempt one knowing everything but there could have been an explainable reason for this which happened vice versa.

Whether it was selfishness or not in the heart it was the questioning or the statement of blaming god or assuming the mind of the Lord.

I could only understand that as some people do not know the new testament it taught more about the principles of love and unity besides that of judgments and ancient grudge over that of creation and rebel.

I still would go to Psalms at times to check my own heart, and proverbs. But I am unsure as many faiths come together to realize this, there will be also a time that the law and the deeds of one may fail in following.

Where Christ suffered and went we cannot follow. That is really as we await for a moment or a sign. It is good to know the past is being dug up until people confuse it, but then we look at how the present had built from it.

It defended many principles the biblical scriptures but it was wrong for any of the things to be canonized or burned unless they actually could piece them together. But such was the power of the church or the holiest of the Vatican.

I would not know these mysteries or there is just something I am missing here. I knew of those peaceful and I knew of those wicked.

The wicked do not care and love to kill regardless.

The beloved one would be forgiven by all the world and that of a Lord, but somehow could not forgive the self.

Yep... that is just an example and pardon me for rambling.
Has anyone tried actually comparing names and their meanings?

People would look too far into it and well, they will get lost or found big time convicted at such cases.

(Still, it is not my place to argue or discuss going off topic, but yes these were more questions of mine rather than an argument.)  

[The Pollen Shed]

T_H_O_S_T_E_L_E_N

Pardon me good sirs and madams...

I'm going to be honest here, I didn't really understand half of what you said. But it seems like you have some vague misunderstandings of history. For example, there were 11 crusades in total, 7 to the Holy Land and 4 into what's now Russia. Catholicism, Lutheranism, Protestantism, and Methodism are branches of Christianity (not distinct from it). Actually, the main branches are Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant.

Maybe I'm just lazy, but you're post was too long to address all of the issues.  

[The Pollen Shed]

I'm sorry, Thostelen. I didn't mean for that last post to come across as mean or insensitive, but I think it did. Is there some way you can sum up the point you were trying to make?  

[Servant Reborn]

Isaiah 53

New King James Version (NKJV)

53 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.  

[DevilinMetamorpheus]

Thank you for the comments though some of my cases seem to have been hard to point out based on what I say or somewhat understand.

I am vague on the history a little knowing how much of it had been scattered. But surely I understand some meaning behind the scripture when I know that there is respect to authority or that of a man to treat with diligence another.

I just cannot seem to back it up until that of the NKJV backed it sort of. But also, I should say that I had more questions than answers though also I did forget a little.

I just got to work on my connections to some things and the past has been hidden within the present.

So I am not sure how to understand how science and such brings us to the past or more in a deeper hole. ^^

Still it was just the mysteries of each of those questions I had a curiosity about.

------------> SMILE. ^_^ = No offense really, I did hit my head after all and lost most of my memory. Thanks. I am a little better now trying to relearn as much as possible that is the truth of many ordeals.

I had to argue against that of Scientology, the lies of it, or a simple the meaning = study of science.

I can understand the Middle East does not want us on the land because of the origins and culture. It is a place for exploration after all.

Same goes for that of Europe or Brititain a little because they will only show us certain artifacts or findings not explaining a full story.

Yes, sadly I was not one on history, as I do have some books that I had to get from my Church or keep over a period of time.

Still, would Baptist be Orthodox in a way?
I just had more questions than answers and I do so apologize.

I have nothing wrong against faith truly but the intent of people killing one another towards that of Old vs. New testament laws.

Some of the questions I stated though too long to answer had to do with mainly the connections or a pure line though by chance directly.

The arguments I mentioned about Jesus was he was similar to Job and I had not read that Allah was a God (hence the Quran) and rather that of Christ or Yahweh (in respect)

I have beliefs of a Lord knowing but understanding more questions or answers lead many more to that past. I could not understand to myself regardless that what made a priest a mediator to God beside that of God himself...

Still, I just could not understand the cases. But if my case was too long to read that is all right and I take that into consideration knowing I had questions.

Sometimes I feel like everyone's story is somewhat lost a little. But it is alright.