Abortion.

[Shinigami Unity]

Taxi Mama

... Wow, I guess I'm still mad about that.

I am too. I felt that my miscarriage was handled poorly by the medical provider I went to.  

[Mrs_Black_Bear]

baberlababs

Mrs_Black_Bear

As of right now I bealive that the only time a woman should have an abortion is in the cases of Rape or when the pregnancy is a danger to the mothers or childs life or both.

But what to do if your birth control method fails for some reason and you are not able to raise a child for financial reasons or because your child would be disabled and it's raise a too big burden to bear?

Then your child can grow up in a poor environment and experience how bad life is when you don't have money. Or maybe a mommy's life gets fixed fully on raising that one child..
Not that it's impossible but surely also not easy.

But without leaving people a choice also those would be treated unfairly for which birth control failed or doesn't work.

Adoption there is always adoption hun and if I had run into such a case myself I would have adopted the child out. Granted it would have been hard but I would have done so knowing it was the right thing for my child. 3nodding  

[butterfly star mist]

Personally, I don't think I could ever have one, but I also believe it's wrong to judge those who have had or would have one. I know women who have had one or more abortion and most of them have regretted it ever since.

First of all, the government shouldn't have a say in this issue. A person's believes - being religious, moral, circumstantial, etc. can influence that person's actions in many different ways. Some might believe that an abortion constitutes murder of an unborn child; others might say the fetus is not yet a human and that it's the woman's choice to give birth or not. There are no right answers! We as a civilized society must respect the rights and decisions of others, whether we agree with them or not. Even when someone is a very strong pro-lifer their decisions can change with certain events like rape or incest. We must not judge! We mustn't judge because we never know what life will throw at us.

The best rule in this case is to follow your own beliefs and let others do the same.  

[Gwion Vaughn]

First off, I have never had an abortion and never will. I've gone to great lengths not to be involved in pregnancy in any way. I am not capable of reproducing any longer.

In a perfect world, no one would. In a perfect world everyone would have contraception and sufficient education to use it. In a perfect world, self esteem would be too strong to let people be pressured into doing unsafe things. In a perfect world, condoms would never break or fall off in situ. In a perfect world everyone would be clean and sober during sex. In a perfect world there would be no rape or incest. In a perfect world couples would negotiate reproductive decisions calmly before it gets to the serious stage.

Guess what? We live in the real world. In the real world, the choice can be abort or be homeless. In the real world sometimes that child is so damaged it will live a short, horrible life. In the real world sometimes you hate the father or the circumstances of it's conception so much you would risk your life to get rid of it.

In the real world, the choice tends to be legal abortion, black market abortion, or infanticide. That's what happens, you see. Historically, city trash heaps where full of dead babies. Now, in poor countries with abortion and contraceptives outlawed, parents starve the extra children. In the real world, teenagers get kicked out for coming home pregnant.

I live in the real world. I have had friends who had to make this decision. They didn't make it lightly. Frankly? If you are capable of making this decision easily, you probably shouldn't have children. I am glad it's a decision I will never have to make for myself. I also lack the arrogance to think I should be making this decision for other people.

Why I'm against requiring partner permission:
I am imagining what that'll be like for all those women in a relationship where talking it over is an ugly option. Yes, in an ideal relationship, they'd talk it over anyway. Hands up for those of you who believe a majority of these will be ideal relationships. Anyone? Anyone? So imagine someone who just got out of something turning a little ugly and finds she's pregnant. Now she's got to go back and beg him for the right to get rid of it. Even if he was controlling or verbally abusive or he hit her. Nice. Statistically? Most pregnant teens have a boyfriend older than twenty. Imagine the already skewed power relationship there with this new lever to hold over her. what if her parents will kick her out if she turns up pregnant? This has "Recipe for Disaster" written right over it.

Yes, it's not ideal that the guy doesn't get a say, but you know what? Not his body. Sorry. Yes, it sucks that if she keeps it, he'll be having to help support it whether he wants to or not, but that still is not as horrible as forcing her to bear it and raise it and support it against her will. The risks, medical and social are all on her side while the financial ones are split, likely not evenly. There is no way he should get final say here. Sorry. No dice.

We live in the real world. Legislation must reflect that.

I choose quality of life over quantity. For a living I had to deal with the messes adults made of the lives of children they weren't prepared to raise. Ever spend all day in a room full of kids with serious damage do to parental drug and alcohol abuse trying to teach? I have. Then I got up the next morning and did it again. I've seen the mess abuse and neglect leave behind. It's not that I didn't love or care about those kids, but realistically, most of them are going to have seriously sucky lives. The statistics for generational drug and alcohol abuse are chilling as are the crime figures. The brain damage typical of FAE/FAS pretty much sets the kids up for early pregnancy/jail/addiction because it takes away the ability to understand consequences, cause and effect, and amps impulsiveness. no, not all of them end up living horrible lives, but odds are in favor that most of those kids will have trouble holding jobs and make terrible choices because of the damage. These are incredibly labour intensive children for foster care and schools and they are the ones with the least chance of succeeding in life. All that heartache, all that love, and labour and class time spent dealing with these issues, all the counselors and social workers and instructional aides could be invested instead in helping ordinary students or children who's problems are accidental and generally more remediable. Generational FAE creates a permanent underclass.

I genuinely think we'd all be a lot better off living in a society where every single child comes into the world wanted and loved with a decent chance of living a decent life. I think birth control is a huge part of that, but accidents happen. They happen more often to the young, the drunk or high, the most impulsive.

I value the quality of life for people already here over that of potential people. Yes, its harsh, but over population is causing major environmental damage. If depopulation ever becomes a major issue again, I'll rethink, but population has been rising steadily since 1400 and I think its more logical to try to improve conditions for people already alive now.  

[Miniar]

Whenever pro-live people talk about adoption as a viable option it makes my stomach churn.
There are thousands of unwanted children in the world already. There are sick, abandoned, last survivors of families, mentally wounded, and other broken and unwanted little kids with no love and only a goverment facility to call home.
I believe that if you "really" want to make a difference in the world that you should, (instead of insisting that women go through 9 months of pregnancy along with all the risks, dangers, and long term if not permanent damage to their bodies) go out there and adopt just one unwanted child.
Take home a child that's got "no hope" of otherwise being adopted. Then you have some grounds to shout from.

I have seen, first hand, what parents can do to children they keep even if they're unwanted. I've worked with psychologically broken people. People who have severe fears of abandonment, a constant and overwhelming feeling of inadequacy, often a severe resentment towards their parents and siblings (if they have any) because often the siblings are planned while they were an accident. These are the lucky ones. The reason for the "shotgun wedding" or a similair self-created situation where either one or both parents are feeling trapped in the relationship and while they tend to take most of it out on each other, what's left is taken out on the child. Living in a warzone of a relationship where both parents (though mostly subconsciously) blame you for everything that's wrong is not a life I'd wish on my worst enemy, let alone a small child that did nothing wrong except being concieved.

No matter how conception came to be, by accident or by force or ignorance, I do not want to force a woman to go through 9 months within the span of which she'll go through hormonal imbalances to the point where it'll directly affect her very personality as well as a period of time when she'll get sick, and a period of time where she'll experience exhaustion, risking permanent and semi-permanent damages to her body (I'm not just talking aesthetic differences here, I'm talking back problems, hip problems, knee problems and wear and tear on other joints in the body, wear and tear on the heart and lungs and other internal organs, wear and tear on teeth causing possible cavity issues, etc, etc, etc, the list goes on and on, there's a reason why it takes the physical body 6 years to fully recover from one pregnancy carried to term!) just so that she can go through one of the most painful physical experiences available to man (birth) completely against her will. I don't know what you think but that smells like torture to me.
And to those that say that abortion should be reserved for rape victims or those who are experiencing severe complications, then do you see this 9 month period as a "you should have known better" gesture? I thought that there were laws against "cruel and unusual punishment" in most countries, as well as a part of the constitution in some.

I am all for life, heck, I'd consider myself pro-life for that matter, but I do not measure life in "number of minutes you draw breath". I think "life" must include some basic human rights, and basic freedoms, such as not being forced to go through a drawn out and painful experience against your will to defend a being that which has no "life" of it's own, sacrificing all quality of life, sacrificing heath and financial stability, sacrificing sense of self and the ability to choose what you do. It's cruel to the point where I'd call it torture to force a human being to go through that against their will.
A woman should have the right whether or not she'll submit herself to the full spectrum of damage and potential damage to her self and her body even if she's become pregnant by accident or idiocy.

There, I'm done with my ranting ont his.
Yes, I know I'm harsh, but this IS what people are demanding from little girls, down to the age of 14-15, that didn't know any better, and got pregnant. Little girls who are afraid and in no physical nor psychological position to go through carrying a child to term and giving birth. This is what is demanded from them by all those that call themselves "pro life".
How can one be pro-life and justify ruining one person's life (and possibly the lives of several people around her) just to bring yet another unwanted child to term?  

[Mrs_Black_Bear]

"Whenever pro-live people talk about adoption as a viable option it makes my stomach churn.
There are thousands of unwanted children in the world already. There are sick, abandoned, last survivors of families, mentally wounded, and other broken and unwanted little kids with no love and only a goverment facility to call home.
I believe that if you "really" want to make a difference in the world that you should, (instead of insisting that women go through 9 months of pregnancy along with all the risks, dangers, and long term if not permanent damage to their bodies) go out there and adopt just one unwanted child.
Take home a child that's got "no hope" of otherwise being adopted. Then you have some grounds to shout from."

The Children you talk about in this paragraph are NOT from unwanted pregnancies where the bio mom decided to give the child up to adoption. These Children are from situations where all of their family is dead no grandparents or anything, so they get put into the foster care system and usually do end up messed up because no one ever wants to adopt anything but a baby. I am one who WANTS to adopt the older children i want half my own and half adopted, however my husband does not like the idea of adopting a child, I hope that maybe he will come around some day. There is only one child he wishes to adopt and that is his niece, who I also want.

on a Side not my family has friends that were on a waiting list for a baby for more than 5 years because they didnt think they could have another one and then they were suddenly pregnant again.

I have seen, first hand, what parents can do to children they keep even if they're unwanted. I've worked with psychologically broken people. People who have severe fears of abandonment, a constant and overwhelming feeling of inadequacy, often a severe resentment towards their parents and siblings (if they have any) because often the siblings are planned while they were an accident. These are the lucky ones. The reason for the "shotgun wedding" or a similair self-created situation where either one or both parents are feeling trapped in the relationship and while they tend to take most of it out on each other, what's left is taken out on the child. Living in a warzone of a relationship where both parents (though mostly subconsciously) blame you for everything that's wrong is not a life I'd wish on my worst enemy, let alone a small child that did nothing wrong except being concieved.

You are probably getting the cases where the children were taken away from thier parents due to abuse, this may not be what you think, alot of women now days do not find out they are pregnant till its too late for an abortion, simply because they show no signs that would indicate possible pregnancy, except for maybe a late period which does eventually show up so they think they were late because of stress, or it doesnt show up at all and they still think its due to stress because of what is happening in their life right then I have a friend that is such a case though she wanted to adopt her child out to her aunt when it was born her bf would not allow it, or if she did he would break up with her and she loved him so she kept the child and seems to be happy. I myself am an unplanned pregnancy, I was concieved before my mother was done breast feeding my brother and my parents were using birth control methods, my mom continued to have regular periods while pregnant with me and because of that the doctors in england refused to give her a pregnancy test, it was not till the ultrasound that they bealived my mother. So not all unplanned children have it bad I have non of the issues you have mentioned, I do however have a phobia of being alone which has nothing to do with my parents and everything to do with my epilepsy.  

[Mrs_Black_Bear]

A fetus has a heart beat 20 days after conception, it is just too small to be picked up by ultrasound or heart monitor, it is also very very rapid. < Medical fact.


A horse fetus has a heart beat ad 30 Days, I saw it on an animal ultrasound, there is not much difference between us and the horse.  

[Mrs_Black_Bear]

as for the 13/14 year olds that are pregnant I would put them under "It endangers mothers or baby's life" since they can not physically, mentally, or emotionally carry a child to term.

Yes I do believe that anyone who is sexually active or planning on becoming so should fully understand all consequences and birth control methods before they have sex!  

[Taxi Mama]

Gwion Vaughn said everything I was thinking; good job!  

[Miniar]

Mrs_Black_Bear

The Children you talk about in this paragraph are NOT from unwanted pregnancies where the bio mom decided to give the child up to adoption. These Children are from situations where all of their family is dead no grandparents or anything, so they get put into the foster care system and usually do end up messed up because no one ever wants to adopt anything but a baby. I am one who WANTS to adopt the older children i want half my own and half adopted, however my husband does not like the idea of adopting a child, I hope that maybe he will come around some day. There is only one child he wishes to adopt and that is his niece, who I also want.

Actually, there are cases where there are those that come into the system as infants, abandoned by their birthparents. Those that were born with defects and/or illnesses caused by genetics, alcohol/drug-abuse of the birth mother, or random mutation. No one wants a sick baby either.

Mrs_Black_Bear

You are probably getting the cases where the children were taken away from thier parents due to abuse,

Nope, I'm talking about the "lucky" ones that didn't suffer any "physical" abuse, or even enough psychological abuse to call the authorities on their parents. I'm talking about people that grew to adulthood under oppressive circumstances.
These situations are much more common than you'd think.

Mrs_Black_Bear

this may not be what you think, alot of women now days do not find out they are pregnant till its too late for an abortion, simply because they show no signs that would indicate possible pregnancy, except for maybe a late period which does eventually show up so they think they were late because of stress, or it doesnt show up at all and they still think its due to stress because of what is happening in their life right then

Or that's the excuse for not getting a pregnancy test. They're not expesive but if that stick turns blue it's something that people have to face then and there. It's much more common that the psychological reaction of "maybe, if I ignore it, it'll be okay" kicks in.

Mrs_Black_Bear

I have a friend that is such a case though she wanted to adopt her child out to her aunt when it was born her bf would not allow it, or if she did he would break up with her and she loved him so she kept the child and seems to be happy.

People often "seem" to be fine when they're not, not saying she's not, but if everything worked out okay for her then sure, good for her, but that's just not always the case. Not even remotely.

Mrs_Black_Bear

I myself am an unplanned pregnancy, I was concieved before my mother was done breast feeding my brother and my parents were using birth control methods, my mom continued to have regular periods while pregnant with me and because of that the doctors in england refused to give her a pregnancy test, it was not till the ultrasound that they bealived my mother. So not all unplanned children have it bad I have non of the issues you have mentioned, I do however have a phobia of being alone which has nothing to do with my parents and everything to do with my epilepsy.

Again, good for you. But as you mentioned, you're not a first born child.

Mrs_Black_Bear

Yes I do believe that anyone who is sexually active or planning on becoming so should fully understand all consequences and birth control methods before they have sex!

Knowing and understanding all the consequences of sex as well as all birth control methods will not guarantee 100% safety if people still have sex.
It's been proven time and time again that the quality and enjoyability of physical intimacy can make or break a relationship. So to imply that if you intend to be physically intimate with your partner at all that you should be ready to carry a child to term is incredibly arrogant.  

[hagelwetter]

My thanks to Gwion Vaughn and Miniar, you both are speaking out what I think.

I think there is always a need to not generalize things when it is about something like abortion. Every case is different, has other circumstances etc. We would not want to be judged generalized within other matters either. The same we should do with pregnancies and abortions.  

[RadicalEd]

Shenyu

Quote:

If you are not ready for a child, don't have sex. That is YOUR choice.

Well, that would be so easy, if sex was just for making babies. But sex is more than this. It's getting close to the person that is (hopefully) the most important one to you. It is giving your body as a personal gift.
But I think you have the possibility to have sex and prevent yourself from becoming pregnant. But what if that does not work because of whatever? Your pill does not have effect and the condom has a hole. I think this would be a kind of complicated thing. On the one hand you do not have a tragic situation like rape or something. On the other hand no one can say that you did not act responsible because you really tried.

I never said it was easy. I just said it was your choice. I know first hand how difficult it is.  

[Lady_Niqui]

Personally, I don't believe that people should have abortions except in rape/incest/mother endangerment but that is not something that a government should be allowed to regulate at all. And sadly, most of the power in the world still belongs to a gender that does not and never will have any concept of what pregnancy and childbrith is like. I've heard it said that a man would have to pull his scrotum over his head to experience anything similar to the pain of childbirth. Let's think about that one for a second... hmmm.... eek
There is no one answer to this but as someone said earlier, that isnt going to stop people from trying to force everyone else into one. I think the idea of making abortion legal and then limiting the amount of abortions a person could get is a decent idea if it could be worked out somehow because just like too many pregnancies can get dangerous, I'm sure too many abortions would also be dangerous.
My sister recently had an abortion and I was violently against it b/c in my opinion she was just unwilling to accept the consequences of making decisions she knew were bad cuz "he said he loved me". She knew he was a freaking douche *grumble* Sorry about that. */rant off* But I'd rather make it possible for her and girls like her to be in a safe, clean place than in a dirty back alley somewhere.  

[Lil-Jo]

Mrs_Black_Bear

"Whenever pro-live people talk about adoption as a viable option it makes my stomach churn.
There are thousands of unwanted children in the world already. There are sick, abandoned, last survivors of families, mentally wounded, and other broken and unwanted little kids with no love and only a goverment facility to call home.
I believe that if you "really" want to make a difference in the world that you should, (instead of insisting that women go through 9 months of pregnancy along with all the risks, dangers, and long term if not permanent damage to their bodies) go out there and adopt just one unwanted child.
Take home a child that's got "no hope" of otherwise being adopted. Then you have some grounds to shout from."

The Children you talk about in this paragraph are NOT from unwanted pregnancies where the bio mom decided to give the child up to adoption. These Children are from situations where all of their family is dead no grandparents or anything, so they get put into the foster care system and usually do end up messed up because no one ever wants to adopt anything but a baby. I am one who WANTS to adopt the older children i want half my own and half adopted, however my husband does not like the idea of adopting a child, I hope that maybe he will come around some day. There is only one child he wishes to adopt and that is his niece, who I also want.

on a Side not my family has friends that were on a waiting list for a baby for more than 5 years because they didnt think they could have another one and then they were suddenly pregnant again.

I have seen, first hand, what parents can do to children they keep even if they're unwanted. I've worked with psychologically broken people. People who have severe fears of abandonment, a constant and overwhelming feeling of inadequacy, often a severe resentment towards their parents and siblings (if they have any) because often the siblings are planned while they were an accident. These are the lucky ones. The reason for the "shotgun wedding" or a similair self-created situation where either one or both parents are feeling trapped in the relationship and while they tend to take most of it out on each other, what's left is taken out on the child. Living in a warzone of a relationship where both parents (though mostly subconsciously) blame you for everything that's wrong is not a life I'd wish on my worst enemy, let alone a small child that did nothing wrong except being concieved.

You are probably getting the cases where the children were taken away from thier parents due to abuse, this may not be what you think, alot of women now days do not find out they are pregnant till its too late for an abortion, simply because they show no signs that would indicate possible pregnancy, except for maybe a late period which does eventually show up so they think they were late because of stress, or it doesnt show up at all and they still think its due to stress because of what is happening in their life right then I have a friend that is such a case though she wanted to adopt her child out to her aunt when it was born her bf would not allow it, or if she did he would break up with her and she loved him so she kept the child and seems to be happy. I myself am an unplanned pregnancy, I was concieved before my mother was done breast feeding my brother and my parents were using birth control methods, my mom continued to have regular periods while pregnant with me and because of that the doctors in england refused to give her a pregnancy test, it was not till the ultrasound that they bealived my mother. So not all unplanned children have it bad I have non of the issues you have mentioned, I do however have a phobia of being alone which has nothing to do with my parents and everything to do with my epilepsy.

I agree that this sounds mostly like children that are waiting in the county systems for homes... not new babies that are given an adoption plan for when they are born. There are families that have been waiting for years (I personally know some that have been waiting for 3+ years) for an infant adoption. Most the kids that are waiting in the system are kids that have been abused or neglected, "taken" from their homes or given up because the parents either cannot or will not take care of them. Babies that are born addicted to drugs. There are kids that have been abused because parents cannot stop beating on them, using them for sex or selling them to other people for sex, etc.. the stories can get horrific.

As the mother of an adopted child, I would be much happier seeing a baby given up for adoption than killed. Make the adoption plan before the baby is born and you will have plenty of time to choose how you want to be a part of the adoption, who you want to adopt the child, etc... I am part of a large group of adoptive parents, that have adopted from all different types of adoptions... foreign, foster care, special needs, domestic infant, and many other types... there are many people out there that want these children... give them a chance at life.  

[0Brutal-Beauty0]

I'm one of the few people in this world who can readily say I've been down all the avenues of this situation. I have given a child to parents who couldn't concieve, I've chosen to terminate a pregnancy and I have a daughter. Each choice was the right one when I made them. None were easy by any means. Each was heart-breakingly difficult, even the choice to become a mother.

That being said I was so lucky in my life to have a mother who wanted to help me chose what was in my heart. My first pregnancy was when I was 16. She sat me down and told me she loved me, I was a woman and that she'd help me no matter what I chose. She went to great lengths to show me and provide me with information on all the choices I had.

The one thing I regret is that before I became sexually active she didn't sit me down and have a heart to heart about how very seriously sex will change your life and how your body is a great gift and a temple. Those experinces have led me to consel younger people in what they should be ready for if they chose to become sexually active. I'm a strong supporter of knowledge. If you tell kids not to do it..... what do they do? Don't turn it in to forbidden fruit. I'm also a strong supporter of birth control & knowing your ovulation cycle. I think alot (maybe I'm wrong) of younger people think sex is proof of love or that it proves you love someone which just isn't the case.

All in all, knowledge is the key to slowing the amount of abortions needed period.