Religious Debate-- Christianity vs Islam-- First Debate--

[Islamic Teacher]

The Pollen Shed

Two questions for Khalid Ibn Walid:

1: I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet (mostly because I haven't read every post. All the bold text is a little too much for my eyes...), but is the Quran the only Scriptures for Muslims? Or do they also believe the Tawrat, Zabur and Injil? If so, do they believe all of them, or just parts? And are they equal in weight, or does one supersede another?

2: You mentioned that you are interested in opening a dialogue, but you don't think you'll change your mind on anything. So then, is this like an outreach for you? I hope you'll excuse the analogy, but is it like braving the storm in order to save misguided souls?

We Muslims Believe in The Quran
And the Tawrat = Torah
Zabur = Psalms
Injil = Gospel

We Muslims Believe the Original Torah,Gospel,Psalms, have been corrupted and changed,edited,etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_holy_books

I'm Not changing my mind or something like that
I just want Christians to learn from Us Muslims about what we Believe  

[The Pollen Shed]

Khalid Ibn Walid

The Pollen Shed

Two questions for Khalid Ibn Walid:

1: I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet (mostly because I haven't read every post. All the bold text is a little too much for my eyes...), but is the Quran the only Scriptures for Muslims? Or do they also believe the Tawrat, Zabur and Injil? If so, do they believe all of them, or just parts? And are they equal in weight, or does one supersede another?

2: You mentioned that you are interested in opening a dialogue, but you don't think you'll change your mind on anything. So then, is this like an outreach for you? I hope you'll excuse the analogy, but is it like braving the storm in order to save misguided souls?

We Muslims Believe in The Quran
And the Tawrat = Torah
Zabur = Psalms
Injil = Gospel

We Muslims Believe the Original Torah,Gospel,Psalms, have been corrupted and changed,edited,etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_holy_books

I'm Not changing my mind or something like that
I just want Christians to learn from Us Muslims about what we Believe

So then, wouldn't you want to start from the Tawrat, Zabur or Injil in order to help us understand you? It's probably the most common ground we have.  

[Islamic Teacher]

The Quran repeats many stories already found in the Torah such as
Stories of Adam,Noah,Abraham,Moses,etc.  

[The Pollen Shed]

Khalid Ibn Walid

The Quran repeats many stories already found in the Torah such as
Stories of Adam,Noah,Abraham,Moses,etc.

So then are there set portions of the Tawrat, Zabur and Injil which are said to be the true Word of Allah and other parts which aren't? Or are the Tawrat, Zabur and Injil completely true? Or are they completely false? How do Muslims really see them?

(The Wikipedia article you sited didn't offer much help in answering these questions...)  

[Islamic Teacher]

http://www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm  

[The Pollen Shed]

Khalid Ibn Walid

http://www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm

I find it ironic that the Quran forbids conjecture (An opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information), yet much of the textual criticism in the link is conjecture. The early Christians (in the first 400 years or so before Constantine) did not have multiple canons. Nor do we today. (I can expound further if you wish.)

And I'm not even going to address the 9/11 conspiracy claims.  

[MiracleRayray2]

they share some things.  

[Rednal]

*Sips tea*

From Wikipedia:

Qur'an and the claim of the distortion of the text itself

Gary Miller (Abdul-Ahad Omar) believes that the Qur'an criticizes the handling of scripture by some Jews and Christians rather than their holy books. According to Gary Miller, Qur'an only makes the following three accusations:

"The Qur'an says some of the Jews and Christians pass over much of what is in their scriptures."

And we hop between things to change the meaning, too! Although it's true that lots of people probably skip over books like Leviticus which are, frankly, kind of boring.

"Some of them have changed the words, and this is the one that is misused by Muslims very often giving the impression that once there was a true bible and then somebody hid that one away, then they published a false one. The Qur'an doesn't say that. What it criticizes is that people who have the proper words in front of them, but they don't deliver that up to people. They mistranslate it, or misrepresent it, or they add to the meaning of it. They put a different slant on it."

In fairness, some mistranslations may have happened because the translators were uncertain of the definitions. Compounding this is the fact that phrases and sayings that may have meant one thing in one time period may seem strange later on and be understood incorrectly because of culture. However, I think Muslims could at least acknowledge that Christians have ongoing translation efforts as part of the attempt to get translations that are as accurate as possible. It's not like we just accept one version and leave it at that.

"Some people falsely attribute to God what is really written by men."

Read: Most of the New Testament. Which is true. Paul was a great teacher, but... however great he was, he wasn't God. And I *do* often see Christians referring to what he wrote as if it was the direct word of God, letter for letter, instead of his own writings. It's also hard to say that the Gospels are necessarily correct in the same way; in fact, I only really think the Torah was written directly by God, while the four main gospels of the New Testament are... kind of a rough overview of what happened.  

[Islamic Teacher]

The Pollen Shed

Khalid Ibn Walid

http://www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm

I find it ironic that the Quran forbids conjecture (An opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information), yet much of the textual criticism in the link is conjecture. The early Christians (in the first 400 years or so before Constantine) did not have multiple canons. Nor do we today. (I can expound further if you wish.)

And I'm not even going to address the 9/11 conspiracy claims.

Yes they did
The Gospel of Judas is an example and The Gospel of Mary Magdalene
I can name a dozen more  

[Rednal]

*Coughs*

You have a good point about the alternate works, Khalid, but I think what Pollen Shed is trying to say is that while other texts do, in fact, exist... they have never been accepted in mainstream Christianity as canonical works.  

[Islamic Teacher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ-m-t-N_XQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ea1eHyGMg  

[Rednal]

I still don't understand why an omniscient God would deliver messages and instructions to people with the express understanding that the proper meaning would ultimately be lost and, in fact, set up a direct conflict that would prevent literally billions of people from later joining the "true" religion. Which is what you seem to be telling me, Khalid. Perhaps I've still gotten a viewpoint wrong somewhere, and I admit that's a possibility, but this is what it sounds like.  

[jesusgirl115]

Excuse my ignorance, and if I am asking a question that has been asked already but,
I have heard that the Quran refers to the Bible multiple times, is that true? If it is why then do you/Muslims not believe in the Bible?

 

[kdke]

Khalid, what are your thoughts, and even your personal stance, in regards to Sharia Law? How does it affect you now, your family and friends, and what do you think of the way it affects Muslims (and non-Muslims) in countries that are bound by Sharia Law?

One more question, and this one is specific: if a Muslim man were to marry a newly converted Muslim woman—let's say an American woman—and then decides he wants to move into a country that follows Sharia Law, what would be the result if the Muslim woman didn't want to go? As well, what would be the result of anyone who decides to apostatize from Islam, specifically here in te US? How does the Islamic community respond? And how would a community under Sharia Law respond?

Thank you.  

[Garland-Green]

Khalid Ibn Walid

http://www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm

Can we trust the Gospels?