Stephenie Meyer???

[SugarRos]

Mortok

As much as I don't care about Twilight, I'm just going to say from what little I actually read of it the problem is not Edward's behaviour (although a lot of it is creepy) so much as Bella's instant and unwavering obsession with him from the word go. She actively pursues a relationship with him even when he appears early on to want nothing to do with her. Let's face it, the b***h just has a death wish.

Honestly, all I can say about the books is that they're just flat-out boring. The first half of Twilight is just a series of diary entries, but with none of the things that make diary-style stories interesting or fun to read. "I got up, I got dressed in an outfit which I will now waste several paragraphs describing to you. I went to school, spoke to some chicks and got hit on by a bunch of guys. I fell over a lot, I went home and cried about how in love I am with Edward even though we've never spoken." I gave up when they went to play baseball and, honestly, from what I've heard from Twilight fans and haters alike, it does not get any better from there.

EDIT: And I mean, really, think about it: there's a team of immortal, eternally youthful super-powered creatures who seem to have plenty of money at their disposal... and the best way they can think of to pass the time is to re-live highschool over and over? If I were a Cullen I would've killed myself long before Bella came into the picture.

lmao!  

[All Purpose Muling Device]

SugarRos

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* Make all of the decisions?
Check.

Hmmm, you mean Bella deciding herself to do whatever Edward tells her? Mmm, totally his fault.

In fairness, "decided yourself" is usually what happens in abusive relationships, too. You make the decision conscious to cover subconscious knowledge that it can't/shouldn't/won't be any other way. Makes you feel more in control.

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* Threaten to commit suicide?
"I just can't live without you. In fact, I'll run to Italy and try suicide by vampire if anything happens to you."

"I thought you were dead, so I couldn't go on. I decided to have a romeo a juliet take on things, because I already thought you were dead Did I mention that I only tried to kill myself after I already thought you were dead?"

I don't believe that threatening to kill yourself is indicative of abusive relationships, in any case. I think that abusers sometimes do it, but more often than not, it's nonabusers that actually feel like doing it, for whatever reason. Probably because they're young and/or have a chemical imbalance.

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* Scared you by driving recklessly.
Check.

With awesome vamp skills that outbeat any professional racer! It's like a theme park ride, but you're probably safer, really.

Doesn't matter for the passenger. The driver can be the best driver in the world and never do anything he can't handle and won't come out of well, but the passengers having no control make it scary anyway.

I feel this one is legit, as far as checking it off goes. Whether or not it's actually a sign of abusive relationships, I don't know. I'm doubtful.

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* Views women as objects and believes in rigid gender roles.
Well, they are Mormon... (I know, I know, cheap shot.)

Yes, very cheap shot indeed. But don't mind the fact that Edward was born in a time where rigid gender roles were the norm. ...Not that he ever makes Bella follow those roles, although he struggles with it internally.

He has had plenty of time to change. He wasn't magically transported to modern times. He lived through two sexual liberation movements in the United States (1920s and early 1970s) and has seen the rises of first, second, and third wave feminism.

No excuse, here.

The second one was obviously more a response to the original. I only have the first and last two as critique of you, and I feel they are legitimate concerns. But that's still just three out of however many you had, so yeah...  

[Xiao Xianyu]

SugarRos

Not that I don't think that what girls that age say doesn't matter or that it's all a bunch of crap and they have nothing real to say, but it's still a really immature span of time. And unless that girl who said "I want to be in a relationship with someone like Edward Cullen" actually sought out and got into one, I'm pretty sure that if said girl didn't already have the tendencies that girls who stay in relationships like that do, she'd get the ******** out. Because it's true that without the fantasy and vampire aspect, it's abusive, and once this girl realized that, she'd probably leave. Fast.

If only getting out were half as easy as getting in. But it rarely works that way. Which is why I think that a book - any book - that glorifies behavior that's abusive is a bad thing. Yes, once they're in it, they'll realize this is not a good thing. But I'd rather they not find that out after the fact.

SugarRos

...Are you saying that the studies are wrong and that girls who stay in abusive relationships don't have similar tendencies? That the science and reasoning behind it is wrong because you know someone who's in one? You're not the only one who knows people in abusive relationships, I actually have a very close friend who is in an abusive relationship. And she does show these tendencies.

In all honesty, I don't put much stock in statistics in any situation. They are true for those the researcher spoke to, at the location and year the statistics were taken in. Good statistically researchers often put in their statistics all those factors, including how many people were interviewed to make their stats. But no matter how many people you speak to, there's never going to be a complete picture given. And, unfortunately, alot of people take for granted that those statistics are the sum total and never look at the whole picture. If you look at the statistics given about things in your region, or your age group - How many of them do you really find you conform into? Chances are maybe half.

In my life, I have had the unfortunate happenstance to be an outside party to abuse on 5 different occasions. Three times as a friend, two times as a co-worker, and one time as a stranger who was just being nice. Does my experience give me the subtotal of the situation? No. Nobody's does. But I've seen enough of it to know that you can't trust in statistics and research papers to give you a clear view of how things work in the real world.

SugarRos

I'm not saying that there aren't reasons other than low self-esteem and such that keep women in abusive relationships, all I'm saying is that Twilight isn't the cause. Without the fantasy, then yes, Twilight would be advocating abuse, but the simple fact that we're talking about vampires and werewolves here nix's the idea, really. I mean, if we're really talking abuse here, isn't it abusive to just hang around with vamps and weres to begin with?

And, if the age group that is so susceptible to being influenced enough to be or stay in a relationship is 16-22, then why aren't we claiming the Sookie Stackhouse series is doing the same damage? I mean, her vampire boyfriend, while they're locked inside the trunk of a car, actually rapes her (she's screaming at him to stop), and then almost kills her by draining out all her blood. He rapes her and almost kills her. And why does she decide to end their relationship? Because he went back to his old girlfriend.

See, here's the problem. Everyone is okay with OTHER books that have this same fantasy setting with abusive tones (although I stand firm that it's not abusive considering the circumstances) but because Twilight is popular with Tween/Teen/YA girls, it's suddenly condemned?

We're talking about Twilight because the thread is about Stephanie Meyers and we were giving our opinion on that. I've said several times that any books which takes rape or abuse and makes it out to be romantic, I find disgusting. I told my friend her romance novel was sick. I'm not pulling my punches, or saving them solely for Twilight. I have, however, read Twilight, and not the other book series you named. So I'm more in position to discuss my views on that.

And, no, making it about vampires and werewolves doesn't nix the abuse factor. I don't care who or what you place in the main characters place. If you take that behavior and apply it to reality and it would be labeled abuse, then the book is about an abusive relationship. My problem isn't that it's popular, or who it's target audience is. My problem is that if someone hands me a book about romance, I don't want to crack open the binder and be met with abuse and rape instead.

SugarRos

Xiao Xianyu

I said in my first post, I don't blame books/movies/shows for mindsets. The mindsets exist. But that doesn't mean that we are unaffected by what we read, be it fact or fiction. Why do you supposed book burnings have been so often used by oppressive governments in history? Because they do hold messages. They do encourage thoughts. They do aid in perpetuating a mindset. Given all the effort writers over the centuries have taken to use books to do just that, I think it would be tragic if we were truly unaffected. We take a little bit away with us from everything we have ever read or seen.

Although Stephanie was probably trying to get the point across not to sex it up until marriage, I don't think she set out to write a book about abusive relationships and that it's okay. In fact, the book would have been a complete drag had there not been any danger in it. Danger and impossible situations are entertaining, which is why we read books in the first place.

....Also, they used to burn 'witches', too. And I don't condone the burning of either, for the same reason. It's wrong.

I'm sorry, but lots of authors have successfully written books with danger and excitement and romance, and have done so without placing their main characters in an abusive relationship. That's a poor excuse.

Where in my paragraph did you get the idea that I condone book burning? I was using it as an example of how even governments recognize the power of written word. They burned books in an attempt to stop the messages from being spread. Fiction can deliver a message as easily as non-fiction. Because the message is in the subtext, not in the literal words.  

[Xiao Xianyu]

All Purpose Muling Device

I can't myself believe that Twilight honestly perpetuates delusions of normalcy in the abused. I don't actually believe that being told "you're lucky you're with them" perpetuates the delusion of normalcy.

Victims don't always believe that the abuse is normal. They are sometimes aware that something is wrong -- sometimes very wrong. Some may even be aware that it's at least "borderline" abusive, though I can't speak to that, myself. There are a lot of things that keep victims involved, and one of those is love for the abuser and the honest-to-god belief that things will get better, that they can get better, and that it's the victim's fault -- not the abuser's -- that things are the way they are. Twilight presents a positive that these people would not accept, which probably makes it a minority of people thinking "It's my fault this is how it is, but it worked in Twilight, so maybe it'll work out now."

And that honestly be less painful than the alternative "I have no idea what the ******** to do, but I love them and I'm afraid that things won't work out and it'll be all my fault."

"You're lucky to be with them" is something I don't see, personally, enforcing a delusion. I couldn't speak for the statistic mode, however.

And I would reiterate: one does not "get into" an abusive relationship. The abuser will force the qualifier on you. This would happen with or without Twilight, and if your fantasy involves it, I sincerely doubt you'll like it when it's reality.

Actually the "You're lucky to have them" was from a true story I was told during a discussion about abuse. They had a friend who they had no idea was being abused. The abuser always seemed wonderful in public, so she and the other friends always told the girl how lucky she was. Finally one day the friend broke down to her and told her the truth. And one of the things that had always stopped her from speaking up was how her friends always told her she was lucky. She kept thinking how, when he was nice to her, she was lucky. So maybe they were right. It wasn't intentional, and the friends weren't to blame for her getting into the situation to begin with. It's not like they were saying "Oh, it's okay he hits you/yells at you." They never saw those things. They were saying she was lucky, because the guy appeared to be so great. But the girl latched onto it as proof she was wrong to question him. The friend felt guilty, even though it wasn't technically her fault, and she helped the friend to get out of the relationship. But it's one example of how a simple statement can do harm with no intention to.

I really think this is the end of the conversation for me. But simply, the fact that it's a book that glorifies an abusive relationship I have issues with. I'm not talking about any literal sense of "Well, it was like this in Twilight". I'm talking about the more sinister angle of subconscious thought. The seed of the idea placed in someone's mind that certain behaviors are romantic, when they are in fact abusive. The human ability for denial is a frightening thing, and it doesn't need encouragement from books like Twilight.  

[All Purpose Muling Device]

Xiao Xianyu

Actually the "You're lucky to have them" was from a true story I was told during a discussion about abuse. They had a friend who they had no idea was being abused. The abuser always seemed wonderful in public, so she and the other friends always told the girl how lucky she was. Finally one day the friend broke down to her and told her the truth. And one of the things that had always stopped her from speaking up was how her friends always told her she was lucky. She kept thinking how, when he was nice to her, she was lucky. So maybe they were right. It wasn't intentional, and the friends weren't to blame for her getting into the situation to begin with. It's not like they were saying "Oh, it's okay he hits you/yells at you." They never saw those things. They were saying she was lucky, because the guy appeared to be so great. But the girl latched onto it as proof she was wrong to question him. The friend felt guilty, even though it wasn't technically her fault, and she helped the friend to get out of the relationship. But it's one example of how a simple statement can do harm with no intention to.

I really think this is the end of the conversation for me. But simply, the fact that it's a book that glorifies an abusive relationship I have issues with. I'm not talking about any literal sense of "Well, it was like this in Twilight". I'm talking about the more sinister angle of subconscious thought. The seed of the idea placed in someone's mind that certain behaviors are romantic, when they are in fact abusive. The human ability for denial is a frightening thing, and it doesn't need encouragement from books like Twilight.

Why end? This is a good conversation, and one that people should be reading and taking part in. Abuse is a serious issue.

Anyway, response that I hope you'll read and respond to.

My doubt that it reinforces comes from a true story, too; one in which "you're lucky" made the victim feel better because yes, in public, the victim really was very lucky. And as long as people were around, things would always be okay, which is a very, very important thing when the victim is not capable of leaving the relationship and needs just any little bit of hope to keep them from doing something irrational like hurting or even killing themself.

That victim, while kept in the abusive relationship longer, was probably a whole lot better off because of being told that.

And I know you're referring to subconscious reinforcement. I have been the whole time, too. Those statements that look active are what go on in the back of a victim's mind all the time. It not that they literally think that when they read it. It's the effect, however. And based on what I know about this subject, a book like Twilight isn't going to encourage the negative. It doesn't need encouragement. The victim can encourage it all by themselves, and will pick up on cues from reality which encourage it.

A fantasy book is just a fantasy. Victims I know are well aware of that. And yes, I am aware that people do pick up cues from literature in many cases. I don't believe this is one of them. The fantasy is solidly a fantasy. It's something notable unreal because you do not, in fact, experience what it claims you should be.

That makes it an escape. Something desperately needed for many. Reality is the real unsafe space.  

[SugarRos]

All Purpose Muling Device

SugarRos

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* Make all of the decisions?
Check.

Hmmm, you mean Bella deciding herself to do whatever Edward tells her? Mmm, totally his fault.

In fairness, "decided yourself" is usually what happens in abusive relationships, too. You make the decision conscious to cover subconscious knowledge that it can't/shouldn't/won't be any other way. Makes you feel more in control.

Eh, I can give you this one, although I feel like Bella had no real threat disagreeing or arguing against him. He doesn't threaten her life or tell her to follow along with him. She just kind of does what he says, without any real reason why or why she shouldn't (which is a valid point of the book lacking writing-wise). I just don't see any kind of abuse in this situation.

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* Threaten to commit suicide?
"I just can't live without you. In fact, I'll run to Italy and try suicide by vampire if anything happens to you."

"I thought you were dead, so I couldn't go on. I decided to have a romeo a juliet take on things, because I already thought you were dead Did I mention that I only tried to kill myself after I already thought you were dead?"

I don't believe that threatening to kill yourself is indicative of abusive relationships, in any case. I think that abusers sometimes do it, but more often than not, it's nonabusers that actually feel like doing it, for whatever reason. Probably because they're young and/or have a chemical imbalance.

Well, that's the thing, Bella never tried to kill herself. Edward only thought she had.

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* Scared you by driving recklessly.
Check.

With awesome vamp skills that outbeat any professional racer! It's like a theme park ride, but you're probably safer, really.

Doesn't matter for the passenger. The driver can be the best driver in the world and never do anything he can't handle and won't come out of well, but the passengers having no control make it scary anyway.

I feel this one is legit, as far as checking it off goes. Whether or not it's actually a sign of abusive relationships, I don't know. I'm doubtful.

Yes, but it's not like he put her in the car and drove around recklessly to scare the crap out of her or anything.

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* Views women as objects and believes in rigid gender roles.
Well, they are Mormon... (I know, I know, cheap shot.)

Yes, very cheap shot indeed. But don't mind the fact that Edward was born in a time where rigid gender roles were the norm. ...Not that he ever makes Bella follow those roles, although he struggles with it internally.

He has had plenty of time to change. He wasn't magically transported to modern times. He lived through two sexual liberation movements in the United States (1920s and early 1970s) and has seen the rises of first, second, and third wave feminism.

No excuse, here.

Mmm, I admit I thought of that as I was writing up my response, but really, some women find that 'old gentlemanly' type of ideals romantic, which is probably Meyers' view, which is why she put him in there that way.

Also, the only object Ed ever sees Bella as is food. Which he successfully is able to forget about. And really the gentlemanly thing he made her do was wait until marriage to have sex.

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The second one was obviously more a response to the original. I only have the first and last two as critique of you, and I feel they are legitimate concerns. But that's still just three out of however many you had, so yeah...

*sigh* The sad thing is, I'm not even a huge Twilight fan. But the way people twist this book around is as sickening as the rabid fans.  

[sssfryan]

The funny thing too is that most of Twilight isn't original in the slightest. Read the first Vampire Diaries book and you'll see what I mean. I think it's funny because after seeing the Vampire Diaries tv show, I had assumed they were ripping off Twilight, but after reading the book, which has many of the same themes as Twilight, I see it's the reverse since the first Vamp Diaries book came out in 1991.

The Twilight books are just airy pop-stories. It's no different than listening to a Top 40 radio station. I'll be entertained by it, and then forget it existed once it stops.  

[Xiao Xianyu]

All Purpose Muling Device

Why end? This is a good conversation, and one that people should be reading and taking part in. Abuse is a serious issue.

Anyway, response that I hope you'll read and respond to.

My doubt that it reinforces comes from a true story, too; one in which "you're lucky" made the victim feel better because yes, in public, the victim really was very lucky. And as long as people were around, things would always be okay, which is a very, very important thing when the victim is not capable of leaving the relationship and needs just any little bit of hope to keep them from doing something irrational like hurting or even killing themself.

That victim, while kept in the abusive relationship longer, was probably a whole lot better off because of being told that.

And I know you're referring to subconscious reinforcement. I have been the whole time, too. Those statements that look active are what go on in the back of a victim's mind all the time. It not that they literally think that when they read it. It's the effect, however. And based on what I know about this subject, a book like Twilight isn't going to encourage the negative. It doesn't need encouragement. The victim can encourage it all by themselves, and will pick up on cues from reality which encourage it.

A fantasy book is just a fantasy. Victims I know are well aware of that. And yes, I am aware that people do pick up cues from literature in many cases. I don't believe this is one of them. The fantasy is solidly a fantasy. It's something notable unreal because you do not, in fact, experience what it claims you should be.

That makes it an escape. Something desperately needed for many. Reality is the real unsafe space.

And I told myself I was done with this subject.

I'm not surprised that what worked against one person getting help, was what helped another person through what they were going through. Human beings are all so individual. Just on a normal basis what is helpful to one person is hindering to another, so that would translate into any situation. As this was not one of my own cases, I can only go by what the other person in the discussion said. And she said that being told she was lucky (In reference to the abuser), made it harder on the girl.

I agree that many people need escape. And I don't have any problem with that. I read fantasy and sci-fi the most myself. So maybe that's why I don't see that as being an excuse for certain behaviors in stories. "It's just fantasy" doesn't cut it for me.

An example that does come to mind is a post I once read in a forum by a counselor who worked with rape victims. She said she really wished there were warnings on books that contained such things. One of the victims she was working with picked up a book that had no hint that it would include rape, and ran across what was apparently a vividly written rape scene. The victim froze up and had a panic attack over it.

I don't believe in banning, or editing books. The truth is books about these subjects do need to be out there to draw people's attention to the subjects. Turning a blind eye won't help. But atleast be honest about what the book holds within it's pages.

As for Twilight itself, I'd label the romance toxic as well as abusive. I mean, Bella goes catatonic because Edward says he's leaving her? And proceeds to be this listless zombie for the next several months over it? Edward tries to kill himself because he thinks she's dead? Those aren't signs of a healthy, normal relationship.

And why, if you were writing a romance, regardless of the species you give your main character, would you give him homicidal urges to kill his love interest? "He's a vampire" isn't a good enough excuse as far as I'm concerned because I've read other vampire novels and none of them gave them such low self control as to have constant homicidal urges towards humans.

He drinks blood? Yah, and I eat hamburgers. Just because I'm having a craving for a hamburger doesn't mean I'm going to grab one out of a random strangers hand and start munching. So why would you give Edward this desperate longing to drink Bella's blood? And where in any of it is it romantic?  

[Soaring Sheep]

I don't feel bad about all the hate she receives. A lot of those "haters" are actually trying to offer advice, because her style is a little immature. It's the arrogant attitude she has and the legions of rabid fans that make people hate her.  

[SugarRos]

Xiao Xianyu

All Purpose Muling Device

Why end? This is a good conversation, and one that people should be reading and taking part in. Abuse is a serious issue.

Anyway, response that I hope you'll read and respond to.

My doubt that it reinforces comes from a true story, too; one in which "you're lucky" made the victim feel better because yes, in public, the victim really was very lucky. And as long as people were around, things would always be okay, which is a very, very important thing when the victim is not capable of leaving the relationship and needs just any little bit of hope to keep them from doing something irrational like hurting or even killing themself.

That victim, while kept in the abusive relationship longer, was probably a whole lot better off because of being told that.

And I know you're referring to subconscious reinforcement. I have been the whole time, too. Those statements that look active are what go on in the back of a victim's mind all the time. It not that they literally think that when they read it. It's the effect, however. And based on what I know about this subject, a book like Twilight isn't going to encourage the negative. It doesn't need encouragement. The victim can encourage it all by themselves, and will pick up on cues from reality which encourage it.

A fantasy book is just a fantasy. Victims I know are well aware of that. And yes, I am aware that people do pick up cues from literature in many cases. I don't believe this is one of them. The fantasy is solidly a fantasy. It's something notable unreal because you do not, in fact, experience what it claims you should be.

That makes it an escape. Something desperately needed for many. Reality is the real unsafe space.

And I told myself I was done with this subject.

I'm not surprised that what worked against one person getting help, was what helped another person through what they were going through. Human beings are all so individual. Just on a normal basis what is helpful to one person is hindering to another, so that would translate into any situation. As this was not one of my own cases, I can only go by what the other person in the discussion said. And she said that being told she was lucky (In reference to the abuser), made it harder on the girl.

I agree that many people need escape. And I don't have any problem with that. I read fantasy and sci-fi the most myself. So maybe that's why I don't see that as being an excuse for certain behaviors in stories. "It's just fantasy" doesn't cut it for me.

It's not so much the "It's just fantasy" than that a lot of the things people claim as 'abusive' is easily explained away because of the fact that he's a vampire. Would I be extremely pissed off if my boyfriend told me not to see any of my friends? Yes. Would I be extremely pissed off if my boyfriend was a vampire and was telling me to stay away from another incredibly dangerous species because they're considered an enemy and would kill my boyfriend the first chance they got? ... I might understand why he was doing so.

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An example that does come to mind is a post I once read in a forum by a counselor who worked with rape victims. She said she really wished there were warnings on books that contained such things. One of the victims she was working with picked up a book that had no hint that it would include rape, and ran across what was apparently a vividly written rape scene. The victim froze up and had a panic attack over it.

I don't believe in banning, or editing books. The truth is books about these subjects do need to be out there to draw people's attention to the subjects. Turning a blind eye won't help. But atleast be honest about what the book holds within it's pages.

This actually isn't such a bad idea at all.

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As for Twilight itself, I'd label the romance toxic as well as abusive. I mean, Bella goes catatonic because Edward says he's leaving her? And proceeds to be this listless zombie for the next several months over it? Edward tries to kill himself because he thinks she's dead? Those aren't signs of a healthy, normal relationship.

How many books do you read with healthy, normal relationships? They would be pretty boring books.

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And why, if you were writing a romance, regardless of the species you give your main character, would you give him homicidal urges to kill his love interest? "He's a vampire" isn't a good enough excuse as far as I'm concerned because I've read other vampire novels and none of them gave them such low self control as to have constant homicidal urges towards humans.

It's explained quite well in the book why he has the sudden urge to drink her blood. It's not like he's sitting in class before she comes in, planning her murder.

And you're forgetting the fact that her vampires actually fight and control the urge NOT to feed off humans.

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He drinks blood? Yah, and I eat hamburgers. Just because I'm having a craving for a hamburger doesn't mean I'm going to grab one out of a random strangers hand and start munching. So why would you give Edward this desperate longing to drink Bella's blood? And where in any of it is it romantic?

Lol, how are the two comparable? You can't compare the urge for a hamburger with the burning, irresistible need for blood. I think what people find romantic about it is the fact that even though Ed finds her blood so intoxicating, he's able to control and love her above all that. (btw, not my idea of romantic, but I can see the connection).  

[Xiao Xianyu]

SugarRos

It's not so much the "It's just fantasy" than that a lot of the things people claim as 'abusive' is easily explained away because of the fact that he's a vampire. Would I be extremely pissed off if my boyfriend told me not to see any of my friends? Yes. Would I be extremely pissed off if my boyfriend was a vampire and was telling me to stay away from another incredibly dangerous species because they're considered an enemy and would kill my boyfriend the first chance they got? ... I might understand why he was doing so.

Okay, despite the fact that I personally don't see the vampire thing as an excuse, taking it from that standpoint-
So, my vampire boyfriend is telling me to stay away from my friends because they're another dangerous species. Who saved my life. Who I hung out with for several weeks/months (Sorry, can't remember the exact time) during the time he left me in the lurch and in danger from another vampire. And one said friend has been in the same place as him and resisted his said homicidal urges to kill said vampire boyfriend. (If my vampire boyfriend is excused on his homicidal urges because "he's a vampire", then why is my best friend not excused of his because "he's a werewolf?")

...sorry, Edward to me is still coming across as a controlling, possessive SOB.

SugarRos

How many books do you read with healthy, normal relationships? They would be pretty boring books.

Um...I don't understand your viewpoint. I didn't mean "normal" as in - Two people meet at a coffee shop and have a normal relationship. Though there are books like that and people do read and enjoy them. But why would a healthy relationship be boring? To me, if the only interesting thing about your story is your character's romance is obsessive/abusive, it just proves you can't write out of a paper bag. The plot around the said romance should provide the excitement. Your characters should be interesting without going suicidal because there love interest doesn't stay every moment with them. (Okay, that was exaggerating, but you know what I mean.)

When I say healthy, I don't mean sappy sweet, always agree, etc. Have arguments, have them break up and get depressed. That's all normal. It's taking it to the extreme level Meyer does that puts my teeth on edge.

SugarRos

It's explained quite well in the book why he has the sudden urge to drink her blood. It's not like he's sitting in class before she comes in, planning her murder.

And you're forgetting the fact that her vampires actually fight and control the urge NOT to feed off humans.

Lol, how are the two comparable? You can't compare the urge for a hamburger with the burning, irresistible need for blood. I think what people find romantic about it is the fact that even though Ed finds her blood so intoxicating, he's able to control and love her above all that. (btw, not my idea of romantic, but I can see the connection).

LOL You don't know how I am about hamburgers! biggrin

Seriously, though. They're comparable because we're talking about feeding. The fact is, several predators have blood lusts, but they're never continuous. It wouldn't be practical or useful for it to be. So the way she makes her vampires have this constant ravenous craving for blood is ridiculous to me.

Jasper goes ravid and attacks Bella over a paper cut. A paper cut? Seriously? If control was that low, vampires would be attacking people on the street in broad daylight and would hardly be unknown to the rest of the world. There's no logic behind it. It's one of those "It's this way because I say it is" that always makes me want to bang my head into a wall when I come across them in stories.

I didn't accuse Edward of premeditating her murder either. I said he had homicidal urges, which he does thanks to the stupid "ravenous hunger" thing the writer gave her vampires. And, yes, she says Bella is supposed to be worst for Edward. But I still find nothing romantic about that.

"Oh, I have this horrible urge to kill you, but I won't because I love you."

Nope, sorry, still cannot see the romance in it.  

[damaged-reality]

PsychoChick101

I don't feel bad about all the hate she receives. A lot of those "haters" are actually trying to offer advice, because her style is a little immature. It's the arrogant attitude she has and the legions of rabid fans that make people hate her.

while you make a good point, I'd have to say that there are more haters then critics.  

[Punkin Avis]

Your right....She is a terrible writer....I cant stand her style. Shes brilliant in the simple fact that she created an old forgone idea and tried to make it her own. She made kids read, so I give her credit there. Its nothing that I would go out of my way to read (Ive barely managed to get through the first book), thats for sure, and as long as people dont start hating on me because I DO NOT LIKE TWILIGHT...all will be well. Now wheres the cookie I was promised?  

[Punkin Avis]

She inspired all the illiterate people to read. They like the "Susie caught the ball. She tossed it back to Tom. The ball bounced," type books. Whereas we perfer the stuff with a little more substance...

PsychoChick101

I don't feel bad about all the hate she receives. A lot of those "haters" are actually trying to offer advice, because her style is a little immature. It's the arrogant attitude she has and the legions of rabid fans that make people hate her.

 

[SaraDiva728]

Quote:

Here's the one about the domestic violence stuff http://current.com/entertainment/movies/91544310_twilight-promoting-abusive-relationships-and-female-submission.htm

This page says:

Quote:

* Views women as objects and believes in rigid gender roles.
Well, they are Mormon... (I know, I know, cheap shot.)

I didn't know the Cullen's were Mormons! Is this true?! I've been told Mormons are racists!!! SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN!!!!!!!!!!