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 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:21 am
Some quick background- I'm 3rd gendered. I hate modern gender neutral pronouns. People who I am out to use "they" instead of my assigned sex pronoun. Not doing so can at times trigger gender dysphoria. This blog sums up my feelings on them nicely. Saverio C. Everyone has a gender, so the use of genderless pronouns really don't have a use (aside from the list of the above eg. we). Genders don't change becuase of a mental change of heart, and everyone has one. Not everyone has a gender. There are people who are agendered- maybe it's just because you don't know anyone who is agendered- but they're out there. 3nodding Atrum_Anima Using genderless pronouns all the time would be improper grammar, so I couldn't do it. For example, if you refer to one person as "they" (". . .and they went to the mall with a bracelet on their arm"), it's grammatically incorrect. It isn't grammatically incorrect- and it hasn't been for at least 600 years. It's uncommon, but it's not incorrect- it's even listed in The Chicago Manual of Style.
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:50 am
Esiris Saverio C. Everyone has a gender, so the use of genderless pronouns really don't have a use (aside from the list of the above eg. we). Genders don't change becuase of a mental change of heart, and everyone has one. Not everyone has a gender. There are people who are agendered- maybe it's just because you don't know anyone who is agendered- but they're out there. 3nodding Additionally, who are you to say that genders don't change because of identification? Is the gender that society attributes to one set of genitals necessarily more valid than that which one attributes to oneself?
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:33 am
Meeatu Additionally, who are you to say that genders don't change because of identification? Who am I to say? I'm someone who isn't cisgendered and refuses to allow Cisgendered privilege to define my existence to make my identity easier for their bias to handle. Quote: Is the gender that society attributes to one set of genitals necessarily more valid than that which one attributes to oneself? It's very much less valid- which is my point. rolleyes
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:08 pm
Esiris Meeatu Additionally, who are you to say that genders don't change because of identification? Who am I to say? I'm someone who isn't cisgendered and refuses to allow Cisgendered privilege to define my existence to make my identity easier for their bias to handle. Quote: Is the gender that society attributes to one set of genitals necessarily more valid than that which one attributes to oneself? It's very much less valid- which is my point. rolleyes So, because YOU choose to deal with and see your gender in one way, so must everyone else? You dislike being identified as Cisgendered, true? But can you appreciate that some people might LIKE the label? Can THEY not then choose to be identifies as Cis, or whatever else they would like to be identified by? Or must everyone be subject to a uniform identification basis, chosen by you? I don't see how genitalia is a more valid measure of gender than personal identity.
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Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:17 pm
Meeatu So, because YOU choose to deal with and see your gender in one way, so must everyone else? Yep- because I'm not cisgendered I expect people to give me the dignity they afford cisgendered people. Quote: You dislike being identified as Cisgendered, true? I'm not cisgendered- so I dislike being misidentified as Cisgendered. Quote: But can you appreciate that some people might LIKE the label? Can THEY no then choose to be identifies as Cis, or whatever else they would like to be identified by? Or must everyone be subject to a uniform identification basis, chosen by you? Of course- my girlfriend and spouse are both cis, as long as people respect how people identify I have no problem. Quote: I don't see how genitalia is a more valid measure of gender than personal identity. Neither do I. I also understand that some people agendered- they exist, and they deserve the same respect as you or me. I really hate seeing bigotry directed at agendered people.
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Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:10 pm
Esiris Meeatu So, because YOU choose to deal with and see your gender in one way, so must everyone else? Yep- because I'm not cisgendered I expect people to give me the dignity they afford cisgendered people. And if someone sees themselves as Cisgendered, but you do not consider them so by your definition, then they are inherrantly wrong, and you are right? Esiris Meeatu But can you appreciate that some people might LIKE the label? Can THEY no then choose to be identifies as Cis, or whatever else they would like to be identified by? Or must everyone be subject to a uniform identification basis, chosen by you? Of course- my girlfriend and spouse are both cis, as long as people respect how people identify I have no problem. But, by enforcing your own definitions of gender above all others, you are not respecting how people identify, yourself. That's my point. Esiris Meeatu I don't see how genitalia is a more valid measure of gender than personal identity. Neither do I. So how can you argue when I said "Is the gender that society attributes to one set of genitals necessarily more valid than that which one attributes to oneself?" that "It's very much less valid- which is my point"? You've contradicted yourself.
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Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:53 pm
Meeatu And if someone sees themselves as Cisgendered, but you do not consider them so by your definition, then they are inherrantly wrong, and you are right? If they identify as Cisgendered why the hell would I disagree with them? I was just pointing out that Saverio C.'s limited view of "Everyone has a gender" is wrong because there are people who don't have a gender. I'm part of my schools GSA- we have 6 people who aren't Cis. There's a 3rd gendered, 2 MtFs, 1 agendered and one gender fluid and one androgynous person. There are considerably more in the group who are Cis and that isn't a problem- but if the Transwomen, gender fluid, androgynous person, the 3rd Gender or the Cis gendered people started spouting off ignorant bullshit about how that agendered person has a gender no matter what they say- there would be bigotry and intolerance in the club that is fundamentally contrary to LGBT Rights. Quote: But, by enforcing your own definitions of gender above all others, you are not respecting how people identify, yourself. That's my point. Doesn't that make you a hypocrit since you're trampling on the rights of the Agendered by insisting they have to identify by Saverio C. limited gender definitions and expecting them to suddenly trash what makes them healthy emotionally? Quote: So how can you argue when I said "Is the gender that society attributes to one set of genitals necessarily more valid than that which one attributes to oneself?" that "It's very much less valid- which is my point"? You've contradicted yourself. Actually you contradicted yourself- not me. I'm pointing out that Assigned Sex doesn't undermine someone's status as agendered. And yes- genderless pronouns do have uses for people who use them to avoid being triggered by gendered langauge that undermines their identities because of their sex. Let's sum up shall we? You're saying that people who don't fit Saverio C.'s bigoted view that everyone has to conform to sex and gender standards they assign don't deserve the right to be protected and called by their chosen pronouns because you're responding to me saying that people exist outside of Saverio C.'s view point and saying that me standing up for people who aren't Cis is wrong. You do realize that as a member of the GSA, you should be supporting people who identify outside of their birth assigned sex, right?
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Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:25 pm
Esiris Let's sum up shall we? You're saying that people who don't fit Saverio C.'s bigoted view that everyone has to conform to sex and gender standards they assign don't deserve the right to be protected and called by their chosen pronouns because you're responding to me saying that people exist outside of Saverio C.'s view point and saying that me standing up for people who aren't Cis is wrong. You do realize that as a member of the GSA, you should be supporting people who identify outside of their birth assigned sex, right? You're a fool, and have not understood a word I said. Saverio made a comment that everyone has a gender. You disagreed, and used agendered people as an example. "Not everyone has a gender. There are people who are agendered" I AGREED WITH YOU and also added that gender is assigned by choice, not biology. " Additionally, who are you to say that genders don't change because of identification?"You then proceeded to disagree with me on that point (which has little to do with the initial argument) - saying that although not everyone has a gender, gender is still static. "It's very much less valid- which is my point."I pointed out that not everyone would agree with you, making your definition of gender a subjective one to begin with, thus proving my initial point that gender is defined by an individual, not a biological classification. "You dislike being identified as Cisgendered, true?
But can you appreciate that some people might LIKE the label?
Can THEY not then choose to be identifies as Cis, or whatever else they would like to be identified by?
Or must everyone be subject to a uniform identification basis, chosen by you?"You told me that your views on YOUR OWN gender should be enforced upon anyone who wants to identify YOU, but were happy to let other people define their own gender how they wished. "Yep- because I'm not cisgendered I expect people to give me the dignity they afford cisgendered people." and "I'm not cisgendered- so I dislike being misidentified as Cisgendered."I pointed out that if someones notion of gender contradicts your own, and yet you expect to be treated as '3rd gender' in their eyes, you are (by definition) not happy to let others define their own notions of gender identification. "But, by enforcing your own definitions of gender above all others, you are not respecting how people identify, yourself. That's my point."You see? I never once agreed with Saverio's statement. Our argument was about what defines gender, not whether everyone has one. I'm fully aware that not everyone has a gender, my argument is simply that the REASON they do not, is simply because they feel like they don't. I have never suggested that standing up for people who aren't Cis is wrong. I support anyone who identifies outside of their birth assigned sex, and my arguments were very much IN SUPPORT of such people. So don't go pointing fingers ma'am, I resent the implications! You do realize that as a member of a forum community, you should be contemplating the possibility that there might have been a misunderstanding before you start accusing people of bigotry and hate, right?
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Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:12 pm
You neither stated nor implied that you agreed. Quote: and also added that gender is assigned by choice, not biology. I think that's bullshit- I didn't choose to be 3rd, I just am, my brother didn't choose to be gay, my roommates didn't choose to be Cis. So yeah- you're wrong. Quote: You then proceeded to disagree with me on that point (which has little to do with the initial argument) - saying that although not everyone has a gender, gender is still static. I specifically pointed out that just because an identification is made- that doesn't make it right. Quote: I pointed out that not everyone would agree with you, making your definition of gender a subjective one to begin with, thus proving my initial point that gender is defined by an individual, not a biological classification. Except you never said that- you asked "Is the gender that society attributes to one set of genitals necessarily more valid than that which one attributes to oneself?" and I answered no- but then, I know the difference between sex and gender which is something you either don't grasp or don't include in your post. Quote: You told me that your views on YOUR OWN gender should be enforced upon anyone who wants to identify YOU, but were happy to let other people define their own gender how they wished. Yep- because I don't let my gender be undermined by bigots. I also don't undermine the gender of people who are Cis. Hence why I said: "Yep- because I'm not cisgendered I expect people to give me the dignity they afford cisgendered people." and "I'm not cisgendered- so I dislike being misidentified as Cisgendered."Quote: I pointed out that if someones notion of gender contradicts your own, and yet you expect to be treated as '3rd gender' in their eyes, you are (by definition) not happy to let others define their own notions of gender identification. When their notion of gender is wrong and enables bigotry- yeah, I don't stand by and let bigotry target people. Quote: I'm fully aware that not everyone has a gender, my argument is simply that the REASON they do not, is simply because they feel like they don't. And I think feelings are just descriptions about what is. Since bigotry is immoral, me feeling pissed off is just a way to describe a reaction. Since my friend in my college's GSA is agendered, Quote: I support anyone who identifies outside of their birth assigned sex, and my arguments were very much IN SUPPORT of such people. Only in that tongue and cheek permissiveness. Quote: So don't go pointing fingers ma'am, I resent the implications! Don't pretend to resent implications and then intentionally use a gendered pronoun to address someone who has repeatedly posted that doing such to them is offensive. Quote: You do realize that as a member of a forum community, you should be contemplating the possibility that there might have been a misunderstanding before you start accusing people of bigotry and hate, right? I was open to it- but you repeatedly put words in my mouth and supported that kind of cross-marginalization- with the crowning achievement being targeting and TRIGGERING someone in the community with your bigotry when you intentionally addressed them in a way you quoted them as saying they are opposed to being addressed by. People who say they support the non-Cis portion of GSA but then turn around and deny them their right to be addressed by their correct pronoun make me sick.
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Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:15 pm
Please note that I am not taking sides in this argument, but am stepping in solely for moderation purposes:
Considering the nature of the debate, try to be conscientious about your language when referring to others in this thread. Even if you're trying to be light-hearted by calling someone "ma'am", considering the context, it might not be perceived that way.
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