owning animals is abuse

[Shanna66]

im sure any of us that go to the pets forum saw the troll thread that moth made. it got mostly low content replies and not much conversation or debate but i think its an important subjest that all of us should think about

i know most if not all of us want to throw this idea out the window either becasue we love our pets or we hate peta and all they stand for, but lets face it and be realistic, the relationship we have with our animals is kind of a slave and master thing in some ways

i made this becasue i think its something we should think about and i feel in the guild at least we can have a mature conversation about it and not just go "well my doggy loves me so there"

having only one puppy and crate training it for example, its very common and most of us are fine with it, i plan on crate training when i get my puppy, but you put the baby animal in a small cage and leave it alone for hours while your at work, in nature that would never happen and im sure the puppy would be better off if it was never left home alone.

well anyways i hope you guys see where im going with this  

[Vanilla eXee]

I think that mostly applies to cat/dogs. It's possible for many other pets to create environments that are so realistic, they don't even know they're in captivity, nor do they want for anything.

Then we also have to consider, domestic cats and dogs (with the exception of ferals) are not from the wild. One could say that living in our homes is their natural habitat, just as it's become our habitat.  

[Shanna66]

Vanilla eXee

I think that mostly applies to cat/dogs. It's possible for many other pets to create environments that are so realistic, they don't even know they're in captivity, nor do they want for anything.

Then we also have to consider, domestic cats and dogs (with the exception of ferals) are not from the wild. One could say that living in our homes is their natural habitat, just as it's become our habitat.

but still, with fish its so easy to put them in pain, just miss a couple water changes. and half the time we dont even feed our meat eating fish live food like they would have in the wild, we mostly feed them little pellets or flakes and often times we keep them in such small tanks compared to their size

and with cats and dogs they cant go outside, play, or do anything unless we say its ok

im not arguing that life in captivity is better for dsomesticated animals, but we cant meet all of their needs no matter how much we try

once again though, just something to think about  

[kage no neko]

Part of why I'm thinking of putting the parent snakes back out. They were born out there, they survived just fine... and they probably miss being able to slither for as far as they like, instead of just as far as their tank allows. Even my room is tiny in comparison to my backyard.
It's just.. not really fair to them that they're now living in a tank, you know? They know how to hunt just fine. Right now it's mostly just an argument with myself about how I know I'll miss them, even though I know they'd be happier...  

[horseluvrelisha]

It's much, MUCH more of a parent/child relationship than a master/slave one for all of my pets. I'm sure it helps that I've raised all of them, I'm mom to all of them, they're spoiled rotten / I spend absurd amounts of money on the best of the best concerning their care. And it shows. :]  

[horseluvrelisha]

Shanna66

but we cant meet all of their needs no matter how much we try

Concerning horses, this absolutely is not true. >.> Very few of their needs are met in the wild which is why their lifespan is generally ~15 years in the wild and nearly 40 in captivity. The only 'advantage' of living in the wild is the extra space... which they honestly don't give a s**t about as long as they have company and infinite food (speaking of which, in the wild they'd get weeds/shrubs/grass... in captivity they can have all of that PLUS quality-controlled hay, tasty grain/oats, and mine get $150 worth of supplements, most of which are apple-flavored, every month). My horses don't even bother going to the far side of their pasture on most days, they just want their DINNER. Every horse I've ever met has greatly enjoyed being a fat, spoiled, domestic pet. =P  

[Azusanga]

I definitely argue that. I know that even if my cat was allowed or born outside, she could never do it and be alive. She has NO hunting instinct, or atleast anything that would feed her. I do my absolutely do my best to fit ALL of my animals needs. I had to downgrade my guinea pigs enclosure entirely to her own benefit, which is her need for companionship over her need of space. The hamster has a decently sized cage, which I would love to expand but cannot. My rabbits are spoiled ROTTEN.  

[LuvByrd]

While I understand why you have posted this Shanna & I hope it will bring a good discussion, I would not call owning animals abuse.

Morally speaking, I consider animals to be lower than people. Not that I don't like them, not the case at all, but if it came to pick an animal's life or a person's, I would choose a persons. Nor do I think it is wrong to use animals for people's needs or enjoyment, whether it be food, companionship, or their services (guide dogs, cart-horses, etc). I view people as the stewards of nature and her animals - we can use them, but we must do so responsibly and take care of them.

I think abuse is when a person, through intent or neglect, does not provide for the basic needs of an animal - its physical and emotional well being - or causes it undue harm and stress. (If you can't do this, you should find someone who can.) Iams and Pedigree isn't good food, but neither is McDonalds, and you don't see children being taken out of their homes for things like that.

One must also judge the circumstance as a whole. If a person loses his job, he might have to feed his pet a lower quality food. There are people out there that rely on their livestock to feed their families, and don't have the resources for veterinary care. Some zoos have difficulties funding improvements. The California Condor, for instance was completely removed from the wild so it could be bred into a large enough population to survive as a species. These I would not consider it abuse, but that's not to say it is ideal or good.

I do not consider this a perfect world. Both the wild and captivity have their trials. The trials of a wild life would be things like predation, working hard for food, and untreatable illness and injury. These are things we can (usually) provide for in captivity. Captivity however means the animal is at the mercy of the person who cares for it. Society will never be perfect. Right now, no one can make someone not breed genetically unsound dogs. That being said, education and compassion exist in humanity, and these things can and should be shared between ourselves. We should all work to care for animals the best we can and educate others. The actions of some should not condemn everyone else.  

[~ Aki - Fairy ~]

In a way you have to think of it in a "what they don't know won't hurt them" sort of way. Most domestic animals don't know any sort of life outside of that in which they rely on humans and wouldn't know how to survive if released to the wild. I'm sure they sometimes wonder, but humans wonder what their life would be like if it were different too.

As for the relationship between humans and animals, yes in a way it is a master-slave sort, but it's also parent-child and leader-subordinate (in the wild they have packs and ranks; it helps to establish that in the domestic life too, and if you have more than one pet you will almost undoubtedly see them establishing and maintaining who has a higher rank [my older dog will charge at the younger one if somebody goes to pet younger first, because older was here first and has a 'higher rank' and doesn't want others to forget that - higher rank should receive stuff before lower sort of mindset)  

[Kipluck]

I think it IS arguable, yes. Not in the PETA OMG U SHUDNT HAV PETS ITZ MEEEN way, but, yes the relationship we have with our pets is a complicated one. Would I call it abusive? NO. But YES for many pets humans have to take a "master" role, and that is controversial if you believe animals are on the same level with people, ethically. Personally, I don't. I believe they deserve kindness, and should be treated ethically. But I don't think they should have THE same rights as humans... hence I am not vegan, though I am vegetarian-but I don't believe everyone has to be. I believe humans should still have more rights than animals, so VERY limited animal testing is acceptable, stuff like that. But, that is really just my OWN feelings on it all.

I think many of us, though, have more of Parent/Child relationship with their pets. Rather than a master/slave relationship I think many of us act the same way about our pets as we would about our own human children. Do we allow them complete freedom? No. Just like it wouldn't be safe to let a little child to run out in the road or eat whatever they want, we control them and keep them safe and healthy. Children have playpens... puppies have crates. They shouldn't be in there too much of the day, but I don't believe it is abuse.  

[Sachie Whitby]

It's not abusing when you consider the alternatives. There are three cats in this house:

Kitty #1 -- Diabetic
She needs insulin shots twice a day. If tossed out on her own, she's not going to be able to hold a job that pays human money, take herself to the vet to get a prescription for insulin, go to a pharmacy to buy it or giving herself insulin shots. She actually got out of the house once, wouldn't leave the yard and came running back in at the first opportunity. She won't go anywhere near a door now.

Kitty #2 -- No Hunting Skills
I adopted him when he was two years of age, but his background is that he was neutered as a kitten. He doesn't act like an adult cat at all. He's very dependent upon humans for things like food to the extent that when bugs come into the house, he just stares at them like he doesn't know they are fun things for kitties to kill. He does see me as his primary parent, doing things like kneeding at me that cats normally only do as kittens with their mommies. He clearly enjoys listening to music and watching people draw or paint. This is a cat who doesn't act like he's missing out by being indoors only.

Kitty #3 -- Former Stray
Technically she was one of the neighbor's outdoor pets living in the wild of a suburban neighborhood but showed up at my house injured, so we took her in. She still favors this paw a lot and really cannot go back outside even though she sometimes acts like she wants to.


There is also a very mean dog that lives down the street from me on the same block. It barks at everyone that goes by the house, even cars, and is eventually going to get over the fence [as it's not that tall.] Animal control can't do anything about it so long as it remains in its own yard even if it is a potential danger to all the children and wandering cats in the neighborhood.

All my cats are fed a combination of Instinct [dry] and Tiki Cat [wet]. They have a ton of toys to the extent that are more cat toys in my house than on the shelves at PetSmart, and people often think we run a pet daycare. The cats also have their own cat furniture, found in several rooms, and the living room cat furniture looks like a small tree made of carpet.

I'd like to see someone try to explain to me how any of these cats are suffering for being in my home.


[I also volunteer at a no kill cat sanctuary. There is a cat there that I met only two weeks ago that would go home with my easily. Today, this kitty even ran up to greet me even though I only go in once a week.]  

[Intoxikace]

Sometimes I feel as though my cats would be better being free and in the wild to do as they please. But where I live, we have harsh winters, 6 months of -40 with windchill that will give them frostbite on their little ears. Then in the summer we have ticks, tons of them everywhere. It would be hard for them out there and they wouldn't live long happy lives out there constantly struggling and searching for food.

My cats eat a good food, they get fed twice a day like clockwork, they have a clean place to poop, a ton of toys to keep them amused, they have pretty much free reign over the house although I do try to keep them off the kitchen counters but they love to jump and climb around so they end up there anyways! During the spring/summer/fall there is always a window open so they can get fresh air, and I also have a harness for them so they can go outside to explore a bit even though they both hate it.
I think of them as my children, I get home from going out and I see where they are and tell them I love them, I don't own them, if they own anyone in this relationship it's me! XD

Some might call it cruel, but I think that if everyone threw their pets outside and let them "be free" they would still be coming home to mommy and daddy.  

[horseluvrelisha]

Kipluck

I think many of us, though, have more of Parent/Child relationship with their pets. Rather than a master/slave relationship I think many of us act the same way about our pets as we would about our own human children. Do we allow them complete freedom? No. Just like it wouldn't be safe to let a little child to run out in the road or eat whatever they want, we control them and keep them safe and healthy. Children have playpens... puppies have crates. They shouldn't be in there too much of the day, but I don't believe it is abuse.

Exactly this! Also, I'd like to address the work aspect of some pets' lives: I have heard several people before say that they think riding horses is abusive because the horses may not want to be ridden. (My adult/rideable horse actually really enjoys our outings but there are lots who are lazy and would prefer to never be ridden if they could get out of it, so I digress). My response = our children don't want to go to school. Hell, I don't want to have to have a job! We all do things we don't want to do because we have to to keep ourselves fed/healthy; life comes with obligations, and in that light riding a horse or using a service dog etc. is no more slavery than forcing kids to go to school is.

Also agree very very much with Sachie re: "the alternatives." Yeesh. My kitties thankfully aren't even interested in going outdoors (they're actually pretty scared of The Beyond, if I have to take them outside to put them in the car for vet appointments etc they freak) - if they got outside they'd probably get hit by a car and die immediately. They're much better off lounging on my bed (complete with 2 extra fluffy pillows just for them) 22 hours a day.