wild caught feeder bugs a good idea???????

[Shanna66]

i dont get it, all of a sudden within the past couple weeks i keep hearing abou tpeople using wild caught feeder bugs to feed their herps and people saying this is a good idea and better than bugs you get from the store

what the hell? when i was looking up info on feeder bugs i was always led to believe that it was a bad idea becasue you dont knwo what they have touched, had sprayed on them, or have eaten. now people just say that if something happens you can just get your lizard dewormed like its no big deal

im just baffled, am i missing something here? why on earth would wild caught bugs be a good idea?  

[Vanilla eXee]

uhhhh. I dunno that's weird. I wouldn't do it. My chickens eat outside bugs but they live outside so it's not like you can stop them, lol.  

[Krissim Klaw]

First off, I will say I have no idea on the risk factors for herps. In the mantis hobby however wild caught insects are considered great additions to the diet because they most closely simulate a wild/ natural diet. Pollen feeders such as bees and butterflies are considered especially beneficial because the mantises will get the pollen through them, which in a study was found to be a addition to their diet. Thus, it isn't just the factors of the feeders themselves but what they have been eating. Feeding wild also gives you a far greater variety than you tend to find when feeding from what you tend to find as feeder insects.

That being said, the risk factors to mantises seems pretty minimal. Parasites have not been found to be that great of a risk to overall mantis health, and in all my time I've only heard of a couple, claimed, parasite related deaths. Naturally, you should have some knowledge of the area you are catching in to make sure it isn't loaded with pesticides. With mantises however I generally view that if the insect I am feeding is healthy enough to be fine, then any potential chemicals they have come in contact with are highly unlikely to bother my mantises.

However like I said, I can't speak for the risks with herps. I know some of the amphibians especially are super delicate to chemical influences.  

[Vanilla eXee]

Well you pretty much hit it on the head, parasites and chemicals, better safe than paying for a vet visit.  

[imderanged]

I'm somewhere in the middle. I have a lot of different types of animals so I need all different kinds of feeders. I usually use all "store bought" feeders for convenience, but honestly you probably know as little or less about were they come from than the bugs in your own back yard. I find it a lot easier to buy frozen mice, fish, crickets, mealworms, wax worms, nightcrawlers and flightless fruit flies from stores rather than try and breed or capture my own, plus I know basically what the nutrition in these are like... not sure about random wild bugs. I doubt I could ever feed all my babies on what I could catch alone. BUT If one of my critters catches a bug in the house or out on the lawn, I don't freak out. I've seen Vladie eat houseflies before, and Pickle will eat anything that falls in his tank.  

[Krissim Klaw]

imderanged

I'm somewhere in the middle. I have a lot of different types of animals so I need all different kinds of feeders. I usually use all "store bought" feeders for convenience, but honestly you probably know as little or less about were they come from than the bugs in your own back yard.

That raises a good point. I've heard of numerous stories of bad batches of crickets killing of herps and also heard rumors of it in the mantis community although I don't know the validity of it with mantises. Some won't even feed crickets anymore.  

[Kipluck]

Shanna66

i dont get it, all of a sudden within the past couple weeks i keep hearing abou tpeople using wild caught feeder bugs to feed their herps and people saying this is a good idea and better than bugs you get from the store

what the hell? when i was looking up info on feeder bugs i was always led to believe that it was a bad idea becasue you dont knwo what they have touched, had sprayed on them, or have eaten. now people just say that if something happens you can just get your lizard dewormed like its no big deal

im just baffled, am i missing something here? why on earth would wild caught bugs be a good idea?

With sugar gliders I am SO paranoid about what bugs to feed. Parasites, pesticides, and aflatoxins can kill gliders... and the first 2 are common in wild caught bugs. However the 3rd is common in pet store insects raised on corn. So, until I can afford to buy from this one specialty cricket breeder who uses grain free feed and aflatoxin testing, crickets are OFF the menu for my gliders. (I do, however, feed my frogs, toads, and lizard crickets. Because of pinworms, I am not sure if that is wise. I just can't get them to eat anything else - BELIEVE ME, I HAVE TRIED. Sigh.)

I raise my own mealworms and roaches as feeders so that I can control their environment and food perfectly. My roaches are fed grain-free dog food. My mealworms are fed vegetables and fruits and a bedding of oatmeal and wheat germ that is NEVER allowed to get moldy (or I throw the entire thing-mealies, oats, etc.-in the garbage. It happened twice. HORRID.

The geckos and gliders get the roaches and mealies only. I do, however, sometimes feed my frogs and lizards these "wild caught" little moths that we have a problem with in our cupboards. They hatch in birdseed, cereal, ricearoni, basically infect our cupboard from time to time no matter how many times we freeze all our foods. I believe they are Indian Meal Moths. The ONLY reason I trust feeding them is that they have never been outside and exposed to bug sprays or chemicals, they have lived their whole terrible life cycle in our cupboard. I feel like I might as well get some use out of the wretched things.

Krissim Klaw

First off, I will say I have no idea on the risk factors for herps. In the mantis hobby however wild caught insects are considered great additions to the diet because they most closely simulate a wild/ natural diet. Pollen feeders such as bees and butterflies are considered especially beneficial because the mantises will get the pollen through them, which in a study was found to be a addition to their diet. Thus, it isn't just the factors of the feeders themselves but what they have been eating. Feeding wild also gives you a far greater variety than you tend to find when feeding from what you tend to find as feeder insects.

That being said, the risk factors to mantises seems pretty minimal. Parasites have not been found to be that great of a risk to overall mantis health, and in all my time I've only heard of a couple, claimed, parasite related deaths. Naturally, you should have some knowledge of the area you are catching in to make sure it isn't loaded with pesticides. With mantises however I generally view that if the insect I am feeding is healthy enough to be fine, then any potential chemicals they have come in contact with are highly unlikely to bother my mantises.

However like I said, I can't speak for the risks with herps. I know some of the amphibians especially are super delicate to chemical influences.

Since you mentioned pollen, I will say that gliders are benefit greatly from pollen that they get from pollinators. However, rather than risk wild bugs with them, I add bee pollen (raw) too their diet. Obviously, that's not an option for a pet that doesn't eat anything that doesn't move. xd

imderanged

I'm somewhere in the middle. I have a lot of different types of animals so I need all different kinds of feeders. I usually use all "store bought" feeders for convenience, but honestly you probably know as little or less about were they come from than the bugs in your own back yard. I find it a lot easier to buy frozen mice, fish, crickets, mealworms, wax worms, nightcrawlers and flightless fruit flies from stores rather than try and breed or capture my own, plus I know basically what the nutrition in these are like... not sure about random wild bugs. I doubt I could ever feed all my babies on what I could catch alone. BUT If one of my critters catches a bug in the house or out on the lawn, I don't freak out. I've seen Vladie eat houseflies before, and Pickle will eat anything that falls in his tank.

Same. If the gliders catch something on their own (I know they often get spiders and moths in the night, despite my best intentions), I am not going to panic.

That's a lie.

The first (hopefully only) time my gliders caught a mouse I freaked out. I actually called an all night animal poison control number and asked if they COULD GET RABIES FROM EATING A RABID MOUSE. rolleyes Yeah. I'm a paranoid worry mommy. Hee hee hee! (For the record, they were fine. Fine and VERY pleased with themselves.)  

[Krissim Klaw]

Kipluck

Since you mentioned pollen, I will say that gliders are benefit greatly from pollen that they get from pollinators. However, rather than risk wild bugs with them, I add bee pollen (raw) too their diet. Obviously, that's not an option for a pet that doesn't eat anything that doesn't move. xd

Actually, a number in the hobby also like to add purchased bee pollen to their mantises diets, I have some myself. You can grind it up into a fine powder and coat your prey in it before feeding. I also like to simply add some of it to my crickets diet since they will munch it right up themselves.

If I had a glider I wouldn't be willing to take the risk with live caught either.  

[Moth Feathers]

Kipluck

I raise my own mealworms and roaches as feeders so that I can control their environment and food perfectly. My roaches are fed grain-free dog food. My mealworms are fed vegetables and fruits and a bedding of oatmeal and wheat germ that is NEVER allowed to get moldy (or I throw the entire thing-mealies, oats, etc.-in the garbage. It happened twice. HORRID.

The geckos and gliders get the roaches and mealies only. I do, however, sometimes feed my frogs and lizards these "wild caught" little moths that we have a problem with in our cupboards. They hatch in birdseed, cereal, ricearoni, basically infect our cupboard from time to time no matter how many times we freeze all our foods. I believe they are Indian Meal Moths. The ONLY reason I trust feeding them is that they have never been outside and exposed to bug sprays or chemicals, they have lived their whole terrible life cycle in our cupboard. I feel like I might as well get some use out of the wretched things.

Just curious, how do you prevent molding at all for your mealworms?
I'm raising mealworms (though currently they're all in the beetle stage) in plastic tubs. Substrate is stale Cheerios, and sometimes I'll give them some crushed saltines too. Their food is raw, whole carrot.
I used to use potato slices, and booooy did that mold horribly. Since I've switched to carrots, the molding has been much more minimal, but the carrots after a week or so still get a little dingy. My friend who raises mealworms for her hedgehog says that the beetles lay their eggs in their carrot/food, and that in the past when she threw out their carrot, she had to rebuy her mealworm colony (since supposedly she threw out all their eggs). Not sure about the validity of that, but anyway.

Also, as a lover of birdseed, what are you storing yours in?
I used to have an issue with the seed moths but changed my seed management practices and have none. I store mine in opaque, sealed coffee containers- the lid is important, keeps the little buggers out. When I buy from seed-moth-infested feed stores, I keep mine frozen for at least a week, and it's done marvels so far.

I actually kind of like having the moths around, since I find them fun to catch. But their larvae make the seed 'chunky' and really lower the quality. I've also wondered if seed moth excrement make an impact on the foodstuffs they inhabit.  

[Kipluck]

Krissim Klaw

Kipluck

Since you mentioned pollen, I will say that gliders are benefit greatly from pollen that they get from pollinators. However, rather than risk wild bugs with them, I add bee pollen (raw) too their diet. Obviously, that's not an option for a pet that doesn't eat anything that doesn't move. xd

Actually, a number in the hobby also like to add purchased bee pollen to their mantises diets, I have some myself. You can grind it up into a fine powder and coat your prey in it before feeding. I also like to simply add some of it to my crickets diet since they will munch it right up themselves.

If I had a glider I wouldn't be willing to take the risk with live caught either.

Oh, that is a good point. I never even THOUGHT of dusting! I do it with vitamins all the time, never even considered doing it with pollen! I might have to add an occasional pollen dusting to my insect eating herp diets! Awesome.

Moth Feathers

Kipluck

I raise my own mealworms and roaches as feeders so that I can control their environment and food perfectly. My roaches are fed grain-free dog food. My mealworms are fed vegetables and fruits and a bedding of oatmeal and wheat germ that is NEVER allowed to get moldy (or I throw the entire thing-mealies, oats, etc.-in the garbage. It happened twice. HORRID.

The geckos and gliders get the roaches and mealies only. I do, however, sometimes feed my frogs and lizards these "wild caught" little moths that we have a problem with in our cupboards. They hatch in birdseed, cereal, ricearoni, basically infect our cupboard from time to time no matter how many times we freeze all our foods. I believe they are Indian Meal Moths. The ONLY reason I trust feeding them is that they have never been outside and exposed to bug sprays or chemicals, they have lived their whole terrible life cycle in our cupboard. I feel like I might as well get some use out of the wretched things.

Just curious, how do you prevent molding at all for your mealworms?
I'm raising mealworms (though currently they're all in the beetle stage) in plastic tubs. Substrate is stale Cheerios, and sometimes I'll give them some crushed saltines too. Their food is raw, whole carrot.
I used to use potato slices, and booooy did that mold horribly. Since I've switched to carrots, the molding has been much more minimal, but the carrots after a week or so still get a little dingy. My friend who raises mealworms for her hedgehog says that the beetles lay their eggs in their carrot/food, and that in the past when she threw out their carrot, she had to rebuy her mealworm colony (since supposedly she threw out all their eggs). Not sure about the validity of that, but anyway.

Also, as a lover of birdseed, what are you storing yours in?
I used to have an issue with the seed moths but changed my seed management practices and have none. I store mine in opaque, sealed coffee containers- the lid is important, keeps the little buggers out. When I buy from seed-moth-infested feed stores, I keep mine frozen for at least a week, and it's done marvels so far.

I actually kind of like having the moths around, since I find them fun to catch. But their larvae make the seed 'chunky' and really lower the quality. I've also wondered if seed moth excrement make an impact on the foodstuffs they inhabit.

Part of it is that I am lucky... I live in Utah. It's a desert. Things do not mold here often if it has proper air flow. They mostly dry OUT. Hence I am always having to mist down all my cages and keep a glass cover on my hermit crabs.

Mealworms tend to lay their eggs at the bottom of, well, MEAL... like the oatmeal I keep them in. I have never had a problem with numbers throwing out the pea pods, carrot, potato, and apple slices when they get old. Mine tend to dry out long before they mold, but I also throw them out after a couple days just in case. They get all crispy and I trash them. So I don't ever THINK they lay eggs in carrots. Weird.

The birdseed was my roomie's. She ordered it from a company online and honestly, I think that it was their fault our house has the dang moths in the first place. She keeps it in a tupperware in the freezer now, but they seem to get into everything. We think they are gone... we store all of our grain based foods outside all winter... and then somehow, they appear again someday. So we start all over again, going through boxes of pasta, rice, etc. Drives my parents batty (who I am living with now... they do not know that it may have started with our birdseed redface Hee hee!) but at least it's some free food for the frogs and lizards, right? blaugh  

[imderanged]

I just remembered an important warning about wild caught insects... Lightning Bugs or Fireflies are toxic to reptiles and amphibians. (not sure if they are toxic to mantises but I won't be chancing it)  

[Krissim Klaw]

Kipluck

Oh, that is a good point. I never even THOUGHT of dusting! I do it with vitamins all the time, never even considered doing it with pollen! I might have to add an occasional pollen dusting to my insect eating herp diets! Awesome.

Always seems like there is something new to learn when it comes to caring for critters. There was a time when I would have considered hand feeding a mantis something that would be very hard to do. I now know however hand feeding praying mantises is easy as pie. My previous girl, Hocus Pocus, had a mouth deformity that made it impossible for her to break through the hard exoskeleton on prey items. I had to hand feed her dead crickets and then later cricket goop. It was surprisingly far easier than I expected it to be.

imderanged

I just remembered an important warning about wild caught insects... Lightning Bugs or Fireflies are toxic to reptiles and amphibians. (not sure if they are toxic to mantises but I won't be chancing it)

I couldn't find any info on it being toxic to praying mantises. What I did however find was awesome pictures of a praying mantis with a glowing head and upper thorax while eating said fireflies. So cool, makes me wish I saw them around my house.  

[Skeksis]

I have absolutely no idea about wild caught insects and herps, however this thread reminds me of several months ago when we were having a locust plague. During one of our walks Rushie ate so many that she didn't need dinner that night, lol.  

[Shanna66]

Moth Feathers

Kipluck

I raise my own mealworms and roaches as feeders so that I can control their environment and food perfectly. My roaches are fed grain-free dog food. My mealworms are fed vegetables and fruits and a bedding of oatmeal and wheat germ that is NEVER allowed to get moldy (or I throw the entire thing-mealies, oats, etc.-in the garbage. It happened twice. HORRID.

The geckos and gliders get the roaches and mealies only. I do, however, sometimes feed my frogs and lizards these "wild caught" little moths that we have a problem with in our cupboards. They hatch in birdseed, cereal, ricearoni, basically infect our cupboard from time to time no matter how many times we freeze all our foods. I believe they are Indian Meal Moths. The ONLY reason I trust feeding them is that they have never been outside and exposed to bug sprays or chemicals, they have lived their whole terrible life cycle in our cupboard. I feel like I might as well get some use out of the wretched things.

Just curious, how do you prevent molding at all for your mealworms?
I'm raising mealworms (though currently they're all in the beetle stage) in plastic tubs. Substrate is stale Cheerios, and sometimes I'll give them some crushed saltines too. Their food is raw, whole carrot.
I used to use potato slices, and booooy did that mold horribly. Since I've switched to carrots, the molding has been much more minimal, but the carrots after a week or so still get a little dingy. My friend who raises mealworms for her hedgehog says that the beetles lay their eggs in their carrot/food, and that in the past when she threw out their carrot, she had to rebuy her mealworm colony (since supposedly she threw out all their eggs). Not sure about the validity of that, but anyway.

Also, as a lover of birdseed, what are you storing yours in?
I used to have an issue with the seed moths but changed my seed management practices and have none. I store mine in opaque, sealed coffee containers- the lid is important, keeps the little buggers out. When I buy from seed-moth-infested feed stores, I keep mine frozen for at least a week, and it's done marvels so far.

I actually kind of like having the moths around, since I find them fun to catch. But their larvae make the seed 'chunky' and really lower the quality. I've also wondered if seed moth excrement make an impact on the foodstuffs they inhabit.

when i was breeding mealies and supers i gave them an all dry diet and only gave them water in the form of carrots and other fruits and veggies once or twice a week to keep them from molding since i live in such a humid area. they can go a few weeks without moisture

good point on the variety, my cresties and skinks only get crickets. they will get roaches when i finally start breeding those but until then no variety at all becasue they like fast moving prey. ethen on the other hand i think gets plenty variety on a captive bred diet. the only types of feeders i havent fed her are baby rats, fruit flies, and goliath worms. ive even let waxworms turn into moths and let her chase them around her tank, i think she really enjoyed it