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 Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:19 pm
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Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:06 am
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On some level, there is justice reported in the article (i.e. not being hypocritical in their judgment; we can't force Christians to print a pro-gay shirt if we wouldn't make LGBT bakeries bake anti-gay cakes). However, articles of this nature remind me that "religious liberty" is not godly. Religious liberty may be true to the US constitution, sure, but not godly—at least the flavor of religious liberty that withholds punishment / negative consequences for choosing wrongly.
In scripture, govt. is actually supposed to take the side of one moral view, and make everyone else conform. Thus Kings like Josiah who totally ridded the land of idolatry and made people observe passover. His reign was called wholehearted to the Lord and righteous. The problem arises when the govt. doesn't take YHWH's / Jesus' side and starts persecuting his righteous people (which is how we get martyrs / slain prophets; there are no matyrs here). The govt was always suppose to be wholehearted in their morals—and have morals, not try to be devoid of any.
On the one hand, under democracy, whoever chooses the God of the bible as an adult should be doing so willingly. But on the other hand, we'll never be united as a nation. Always at conflict with each other. Kingdom divided. Or is that it...are we suppose to be the inferior kingdoms of iron mixed with clay?
Daniel 2:41-43 (NIV)
41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
Ah, Deja Vu. Same topic, different article [The New Civil War: Religious Liberty]. You came to the same conclusion (that we're in an inferior kingdom Daniel prophesied about). razz Consider me convinced. And God's word glorified yet again. The only thing that will solve this is Jesus coming back. heart
But also, I don't see how any Americans, who live in the USA, will get beheaded or have their bloodshed for their faith (thus, no first resurrection for us) if things stay "neutral" in the USA. We may get murdered in their hearts (they have hatred of us, and get our heads "bitten off" in arguments), but we have not been beheaded literally. Either that (no Americans in the USA taking part in the first resurrection) or the constitution of the USA, that protects religious liberty, will not survive much longer.
Revelation 20:4-6 (NIV)
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Footnotes:
a. Revelation 20:4 Or God; I also saw those who
That definitely does not describe a time of religious liberty if people are getting beheaded—and I don't think the USA is exempt from it (or is it? thus no one here obtaining the first resurrection?).
On a related note, is the Beast ISIS? o_o ISIS surely has made God's people travel across the desert as refugees and have had people go to their aid with food and water in the desert. But the woman described in Revelation 12 seems to be Israel, not Christians, fleeing ISIS. Christians fleeing ISIS do sound like verse 17 though (Christians exist because of Israel; we're the rest of her offspring and not the woman herself).
Revelation 12 (NIV)
The Woman and the Dragon
12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
Footnotes:
a. Revelation 12:5 Psalm 2:9
The devil did try to use Herod to kill off Jesus, but failed.
Israel has been persecuted.
And now Christians are being persecuted (v. 17)
question
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Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:47 am
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cristobela On some level, there is justice reported in the article (i.e. not being hypocritical in their judgment; we can't force Christians to print a pro-gay shirt if we wouldn't make LGBT bakeries bake anti-gay cakes). However, articles of this nature remind me that "religious liberty" is not godly. Religious liberty may be true to the US constitution, sure, but not godly—at least the flavor of religious liberty that withholds punishment / negative consequences for choosing wrongly.
In scripture, govt. is actually supposed to take the side of one moral view, and make everyone else conform. Thus Kings like Josiah who totally ridded the land of idolatry and made people observe passover. His reign was called wholehearted to the Lord and righteous. The problem arises when the govt. doesn't take YHWH's / Jesus' side and starts persecuting his righteous people (which is how we get martyrs / slain prophets; there are no matyrs here). The govt was always suppose to be wholehearted in their morals—and have morals, not try to be devoid of any.
On the one hand, under democracy, whoever chooses the God of the bible as an adult should be doing so willingly. But on the other hand, we'll never be united as a nation. Always at conflict with each other. Kingdom divided. Or is that it...are we suppose to be the inferior kingdoms of iron mixed with clay?
Daniel 2:41-43 (NIV)
41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
Ah, Deja Vu. Same topic, different article [The New Civil War: Religious Liberty]. You came to the same conclusion (that we're in an inferior kingdom Daniel prophesied about). razz Consider me convinced. And God's word glorified yet again. The only thing that will solve this is Jesus coming back. heart
But also, I don't see how any Americans, who live in the USA, will get beheaded or have their bloodshed for their faith (thus, no first resurrection for us) if things stay "neutral" in the USA. We may get murdered in their hearts (they have hatred of us, and get our heads "bitten off" in arguments), but we have not been beheaded literally. Either that (no Americans in the USA taking part in the first resurrection) or the constitution of the USA, that protects religious liberty, will not survive much longer.
Revelation 20:4-6 (NIV)
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Footnotes:
a. Revelation 20:4 Or God; I also saw those who
That definitely does not describe a time of religious liberty if people are getting beheaded—and I don't think the USA is exempt from it (or is it? thus no one here obtaining the first resurrection?).
On a related note, is the Beast ISIS? o_o ISIS surely has made God's people travel across the desert as refugees and have had people go to their aid with food and water in the desert. But the woman described in Revelation 12 seems to be Israel, not Christians, fleeing ISIS. Christians fleeing ISIS do sound like verse 17 though (Christians exist because of Israel; we're the rest of her offspring and not the woman herself).
Revelation 12 (NIV)
The Woman and the Dragon
12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
Footnotes:
a. Revelation 12:5 Psalm 2:9
The devil did try to use Herod to kill off Jesus, but failed.
Israel has been persecuted.
And now Christians are being persecuted (v. 17)
question
Hmm. There is always a chance that things have double meanings, that there are double predictions in a prophecy. An example is Antiochus IV Epiphanes. He gave himself the surname "Epiphanes" which means "the visible god" (that he and Jupiter were identical). He acted as though he really were Jupiter and the people called him "Epimanes" meaning "the madman". He was violently bitter against the Jews, and was determined to exterminate them and their religion. He devastated Jerusalem in 168 BC, defiled the Temple, offered a pig on its altar, erected an altar to Jupiter, prohibited Temple worship, forbade circumcision on pain of death, sold thousands of Jewish families into slavery, destroyed all copies of Scripture that could be found, and slaughtered everyone discovered in possession of such copies, and resorted to every conceivable torture to force Jews to renounce their religion. This eventually led to the Maccabaean revolt.
It is by some believed it is talking about him in Matthew 24:15-16;
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Others believe it is talking about him, but at the same time also a future, final Antichrist. This makes sense to me since Anticoshus did not fulfill all the prophecies concerning the beast. Anticoshus was kind of like a foreshadow of things to come. Like there's foreshadowing of Jesus in the Old Testament.
The beast from what I have gathered is an individual. I could be wrong... Others have believed him to be the Roman Catholic church, an institution. But it seems to me that he has all the characteristics of personhood.
Revelation 17:11
The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
Revelation says that the beast is a king. Not a kingdom.
Revelation 13:18
This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.
His number is the number of a man.
Perhaps ISIS is one of the ten horns? But then again the ten horns are ten kingdoms and ISIS is not a kingdom and I don't think they (ISIS) have a king?
Revelation 17:12
"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
Daniel 7:24
The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings.
That he subdues three is why he is called one of seven in Revelation. |
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