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 Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:41 am
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:41 pm
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Our leaders need to stop messing with Israel (ノ_<。) !
412 tornadoes. gonk
But this article brings up so many questions and my head is about to explode trying to figure this out:
1. What if it's with any of Abraham's descendants...?
What makes up the "nation of Abram"?
Genesis 12:1-4 (NIV)
12 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.
2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.[a]
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”[b]
4 So Abram went, as the Lord had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Harran.
Footnotes:
a. Genesis 12:2 Or be seen as blessed
b. Genesis 12:3 Or earth / will use your name in blessings (see 48:20)
2. And would this include Christians too, even though they don't biologically descend from Abraham...?
Also, messing with the descendants of Abraham is not the only action that leads to cursing from God.
Deuteronomy 27:17 (NIV)
17 “Cursed is anyone who moves their neighbor’s boundary stone.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!
Acts 17:26 (NIV)
26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
So none of that, "who's my neighbor? emotion_awesome " business.
3. Doesn't that mean we can't move anyone's boundary stone?
I can see YHWH getting angry about moving the boundary-line of anyone since He set them all up. So, when it comes to Palestinian Arabs who identify themselves as Ishmaelites (since they're Muslim; thus would be Abrahamic as well question ), then, in the cases where they faced off with Israel, wouldn't it be a case of that "boundary-moving" curse activated against them instead of the Genesis 12 curse? since they're both of Abraham? Because, again, Ishmael is Abraham's son as well...so he got blessed too. Not just by Genesis 12, but he got his own blessing on top of that, even though it's not the Covenant:
Genesis 17:20-21 (NIV)
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.”
Where is his great nation? Wouldn't it be the Muslims or the Arabs? or both? I don't know what to make of Ishmael entirely. I don't want to talk badly about them, but Muhammad on the other-hand... :l I mean Muhammad didn't exist until 570 A.D. / C.E.(approximately), according to wikipedia, so all those thousands of years BC what did the Ishmaelites do? They clearly hated on the Israelites in the Bible :L They're the ones who bought Joseph after his brothers sold him off out of jealousy. And yet prophecy doesn't seem to hate them too much because they will worship the one true God in Jerusalem (or at least their merchandise will be used for it...?).
1 Chronicles 1:29-31 (NIV)
29 These were their descendants:
Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, 30 Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, 31 Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael.
Ezekiel 27:21 (NIV)
21 “‘Arabia and all the princes of Kedar were your customers; they did business with you in lambs, rams and goats.
Isaiah 60:7 (NIV)
7 All Kedar’s flocks will be gathered to you,
the rams of Nebaioth will serve you;
they will be accepted as offerings on my altar,
and I will adorn my glorious temple.
They are serving Israel (or at least getting the animals that belongs to Ishmael)?
I know the descendants of Kedar at least are a tent dwelling people and somewhat militaristic.
Psalm 120:5 (NIV)
5 Woe to me that I dwell in Meshek,
that I live among the tents of Kedar!
Song of Songs 1:5 (NIV)
5 Dark am I, yet lovely,
daughters of Jerusalem,
dark like the tents of Kedar,
like the tent curtains of Solomon.[a]
Footnotes:
a. Song of Songs 1:5 Or Salma
Isaiah 21:16-17 (NIV)
16 This is what the Lord says to me: “Within one year, as a servant bound by contract would count it, all the splendor of Kedar will come to an end. 17 The survivors of the archers, the warriors of Kedar, will be few.” The Lord, the God of Israel, has spoken.
I found a link with some history of the descendants of Nebaioth identifying them as part of the Idumeans who opposed Ezra during the rebuilding of the second temple (I knew they sounded like Ishmaelites idea ). Are those the ancestors of Palestinian Arabs today? Either way, GotQuestions.org identifies the Arabs as descendants of Ishmael [From whom are the modern Palestinians descended?].
GotQuestions brought up, the land was promised through Isaac. So even if Ishmael becomes a great nation, clearly it should be separate from Israel.
Genesis 50:24 (NIV)
24 Then Joseph said to his brothers, “I am about to die. But God will surely come to your aid and take you up out of this land to the land he promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”
Though I don't think it is wise to curse either of them.
Despite that, I love articles like these that bring some much needed discernment to recent history. I don't doubt for a second that these are judgments from God. What I'm not entirely sure of, however, is how Muslims relate to all this since they're Abrahamic too.
4. Should we stop referring to Ishmaelites as Abrahamic? or is that Biblically-inaccurate? @_@
Because sometimes, the blessing seems to be based on family tree, and yet at other times, one's identity as Abrahamic seems to be based on behavior.
John 8:39-40 (NIV)
39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[a] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.
Footnotes:
a. John 8:39 Some early manuscripts “If you are Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then
Does speaking against the actual gospel and persecuting Christians (like ISIS for example) make them a Jesus-killer? Ergo not Abrahamic? Uuuuuh. Conundrum. Because I do refer to them as Abrahamic at times. burning_eyes
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:33 am
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Reply
