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What if Jesus meant every word He said? 

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Does animal death glorify God?

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Lady Vizsla

PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:32 am
Kevin B., Australia, wrote in response to Animals eating animals:

Quote:
Deuteronomy 32:39 “‘See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god beside Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Your expectation of God's creation in there being no 'Death' before the fall in the animal kingdom is unreal and unfaithful to the majesty of God's character. It is fanciful and unbelievable. To imagine a world where animals promulgate to plague proportions without restraint and cannot die and therefore have eternal life apart from the Command of God entrusted to Man alone is a fairytale religion and not the reality of the only true and Almighty God. Your credibility with unsaved people would be greatly enhanced if you could ditch this weird notion of a T Rex or perhaps a herd of elephants not stepping on a mouse or crushing the odd gopher in his hole and extinguishing his nephesh - breath. Man had dominion over the animals in the administration of life - death in the animal kingdom pre-fall and the cunning and hunting ability of animals was under the dominion of God alone. There is no other being apart from Him who has dominion over these attributes in creatures - until man's rebellion hands his dominion over to the Devil and Death.

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Lita Cosner, CMI-US, responds:

Thanks for writing in. There is an important exegetical principle that everything in the Bible after the Fall presumes a fallen creation, and we have to look to the original biblical account of the created order to see God’s perfect will, and if possible, look forward to what is said about the future restored creation. Jesus actually instituted this principle of exegesis when the Pharisees and the Sadducees asked about marriage, presuming God’s decree about divorce in the Mosaic Law reflected God’s will. But Jesus said, “From the beginning it was not so” (Matthew 19: cool . We can also say about carnivory and death of animals, “From the beginning it was not so”. Genesis clearly depicts a creation in which all animals ate plants (Genesis 1:30), and Isaiah 11 and 65 envisions a time in the future when carnivores will return to a vegetarian diet. So while the passage you reference shows God might be glorified in even the fallen created order, we shouldn’t make the mistake of thinking that it reflects His original design, or the ultimate destiny, of animals.

Is it unbelievable to think of a world without animal death? The goal of reproduction was to ‘fill the earth’. Once the earth was filled, had it remained unfallen, perhaps animals simply would have stopped reproducing. See Was there really no death before the Fall? We know that in the restored creation, humans will cease to marry and give in marriage (Matthew 22:30)—that is because the full number of human beings to fill the restored creation will already exist, and there will be no more reproduction.

Would ‘ditching this weird notion’ enhance our credibility with lost people? Even if it would, a pragmatic argument would not be a good reason to ignore the clear teaching of Scripture. But many creationists report that they have greater success when sharing the Gospel precisely because they stand strong on Genesis and the biblical account.

I would encourage you to take your beliefs about creation from Scripture alone, without reference to what the culture might consider ‘weird’ or unbelievable.

Jackson C., U.S., wrote:

Quote:
A Christian told me that since it's fine to kill a cow and eat it, that it is fine for someone to kill and eat their dog. I am greatly bothered by this. Is my dog no more valuable to God? Please tell me the truth.


Lita Cosner responds:

Dear Jackson,

Thanks for writing in. Today we assign differing values to animals. Some, like rats, we consider disgusting disease vectors. Others, like dogs and cats, we consider beloved companions. Others, like horses, we consider useful for certain types of work or recreation, but as unsuitable for food. Others, like cows and chickens, we consider useful for food, to the extent that the majority of cows and chickens are bred for that specific purpose.

However, if we look at peoples’ views in different times and places, we find that people have eaten just about every type of animal flesh available. In especially dire circumstances, people even violate the ultimate taboo by becoming cannibals. In wartime or famine, even beloved family pets can be dinner. Sentimentalism is a luxury that people in some instances simply didn’t have.

Now, what value does God assign to animals? God created animals and people to eat plants—so originally, animals were not on the menu. Rather, they were created for God’s glory and to be useful to man in various ways. But today we see that carnivory is necessary for some animals and most people (a good vegetarian or vegan diet that provides all human dietary requirements is a luxury that most people in the world do not have—most populations have to take whatever nutritious food they can find).

Various verses in Scripture show that God assigns value to animals and cares for them. He gives them their food and provides for their needs (Psalm 104:14), and not even a sparrow falls to the ground that He doesn’t know about (Matthew 10:29). God also provided various laws in the Mosaic law that protected animals. For instance, an Israelite who came across a donkey that had fallen under its burden had an obligation to help it (Exodus 23:5). It was illegal to muzzle an ox that was treading out the grain (Deuteronomy 25:4). Anyone who came across a lost animal had an obligation to take it back to its owner if the owner was known (Deuteronomy 22:1), or to care for it until its owner came looking for it (22:2). And while it certainly isn’t Scripture, the rabbinic literature also contains statutes about animals that reflect that later Jews interpreted Scripture to require certain protections of animals against cruelty and destruction for its own sake.

Yet the same Mosaic law required the slaughter of countless bulls, rams, and doves. It also required that an animal that killed a man must also be killed.

So, the short answer is—God assigns value to animals as living creatures, and He forbids mankind from being needlessly cruel to them. But they are not image-bearers of God as humans are, and thus the Bible permits animals to be killed and eaten—and that principle applies to even animals that we would normally consider friends, not food.  
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:14 pm
edited: clicked submit by mistake; typo: environment's*
Lady Aryel
[...] and thus the Bible permits animals to be killed and eaten—and that principle applies to even animals that we would normally consider friends, not food.


Overall, she did a good job addressing the question(s) to alleviate any doubts / concerns of those who wrote in, thus edify them in the faith.

But she skirted around the elephant in the room, as far as eating dogs is concerned, that would help edify their faith even more strongly and perfectly (and help protect people around the world): "...as long as the animal is clean, which dogs are not". We shouldn't eat our dogs. It is illegal in the Father's eyes because it's unsafe: dogs—just like vultures, roaches, flies, and rats—eat decomposed / putrefied matter, waste; thus, feed on pathogen-carrying substances. They're the garbage cans of the earth that clean the earth of these disease-causing substances. Don't literally eat them.

Ergo, why unclean animals still exist, according to Jesus' vision, which He gave to John in the Book of Revelation (even if people wanted to argue that they're being symbolic here [which the context does not allow, but let's give them that], unclean animals still have to exist literally in order to serve as a symbol of "unclean" figuratively; either way you cut it, unclean vs clean distinctions still exist in God's eyes—just like a Gentile remains unclean if they don't actually experience a change in their nature and way of living [in their function] on earth).

      • Revelation 18:2 (NIV)

        2 With a mighty voice he shouted:

        “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!’[a]
            She has become a dwelling for demons
        and a haunt for every impure spirit,
            a haunt for every unclean bird,
            a haunt for every unclean and detestable animal.

        Footnotes:

        a. Revelation 18:2 Isaiah 21:9

      • Matthew 24:28 (NIV)

        28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

      • 1 Kings 14:11 (NIV)

        11 Dogs will eat those belonging to Jeroboam who die in the city, and the birds will feed on those who die in the country. The Lord has spoken!

      • 1 Kings 22:38 (NIV)

        38 They washed the chariot at a pool in Samaria (where the prostitutes bathed),[a] and the dogs licked up his blood, as the word of the Lord had declared.

        Footnotes:

        1 Kings 22:38 Or Samaria and cleaned the weapons

      • Isaiah 66:17 (NIV)

        17 “Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one who is among those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other unclean things—they will meet their end together with the one they follow,” declares the Lord.


Literal animals that the Father identified as unclean are still literally unclean to eat for our (and the environment's) own good. They are equivalent to the filter on an air conditioner, filtering out unclean things from the environment that make us sick and that shouldn't be in our body. Eat the filter of an air conditioner, because people have found a way to season it to make it "taste good", doesn't mean it's actually good for you. And defeats the purpose of its filtering existence in the first place.

The Father's Commands are not a self-imposed custom of, "don't handle, don't taste, don't touch" (unlike the "netilat yadayim" hand-washing/hand-blessing ritual of the Pharisees, which required you to pour water over one hand, recite a blessing, pour water over the other hand, recite a blessing, so on and so forth, this repeats a few times, which is self-imposed, a self-imposed tradition that literally overrode the Father's Commands, and thus that failed to protect, were vain, and useless [on top of being plain cumbersome]). And why Jesus rebuked them (the Pharisees' disobedience and worthless traditions that nullified obedience to the Father's Commands)—on top of teaching them that defilement starts from within, upon desiring to do the lawless behavior in the thoughts of their heart, not that we're defiled by any disobedience to a self-imposed custom.

      • Matthew 15:19-20 (NIV)

        19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

      • Matthew 15:1-9 (NIV)

        15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”

        3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

        8 “‘These people honor me with their lips,
            but their hearts are far from me.
        9 They worship me in vain;
            their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”

        Footnotes:

        a. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 20:12; Deut. 5:16
        b. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 21:17; Lev. 20:9
        c. Matthew 15:9 Isaiah 29:13


Jesus is not nullifying the Father's Commands, but upholding them.

For the record: what Jesus said to do in symbol that seemingly violates the Law of the Father (if done literally) does not override the literal prohibition in the Law (just like it is still unclean to eat human beings and to drink literal blood—by lawful definition we're not food, never have been food, and neither is blood—even though Jesus commanded us to eat His human flesh and drink His blood, figuratively, by eating unleavened bread and wine [actual food]; in reality, there are only clean, according to the Father's Law, things entering our body and that symbolic gesture of eating unleavened bread and wine, as His sacrificed body, communicates that our bodies are the temple which holds the altar [the bronze altar of the tabernacle/temple is where the blood of animals / the blood and flesh of the sacrifices would be poured down on and cooked on, respectively). This is not an "a-okay" of the eating of human flesh or the eating of blood (unclean things) literally.

Same thing with Peter's vision of unclean animals in Acts 10. There are no unclean animals passing Peter's lips; they're a symbolic representation of accepting gentiles into the body of Christ, without literally eating unclean animals and introducing them into your bodily organs. Gentiles are made clean because Jesus sanctifies them of their gentile-ness—their spiritually-pagan, demon-honoring practices, and unclean ways of living—and they start living by His Word instead). Defilement starts from within, but uncleanness is not limited to the intangible (things like attitudes or thoughts): literal pathogenic (thus unclean) things still exist too. Ergo:

      • 2 Corinthians 7:1 (NIV)

        7 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

      • 2 Corinthians 6:17 (NIV)

        17 Therefore,

        “Come out from them
            and be separate,
                says the Lord.
        Touch no unclean thing,
            and I will receive you.”[a]

        Footnotes:

        a. 2 Corinthians 6:17 Isaiah 52:11; Ezek. 20:34,41


Scripture doesn't contradict, nor nullify the Commands of the Father. The Law is beneficial still and guards against (thus prohibits) eating things like dogs and blood for very good reasons, even if we cannot detect them all.
 

cristobela
Vice Captain

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