Abortion.... Is it a woman's choice? Is it murder? It is most certainty a hot topic of today's society. Many people are either pro-choice or pro-life. But what does the Bible say about abortion? Does God consider abortion murdering innocent children in the womb? Ray Comfort walks through the streets to ask people their thoughts on it. And in a few seconds, many people changed their view on abortion in saving a value life that is precious in the sight of God.
Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 6:27 pm
For me the WHY women feel the need to have an abortion is very important. 🤷♀️ My husband and I have been in their shoes, honestly. We have a child already, we use contraception.. and we had a scare. We both sat down and discussed our options, cried, looked deeply at our situation.. and thankfully we didnt have to make any hard decisions.. and ALL of them would have been incredibly hard. As a young tween I was molested and nearly raped by a family member.. given the echos of his actions and subsequent trauma related mental illness I experience(d), being forced to carry a child created in such a way ABSOLUTELY would have been my undoing. Im still in the process of recovery for his actions and its been almost two decades, I still have night terrors and panic attacks.
And unfortunately abortion will always exist, all laws do is take away safe abortion. I am NOT pro-abortion, I think its a heartbreaking travesty that in an ideal world absolutely would not feel like an option, but we’re not there just yet. If we address the reasons behind abortion (poverty, access to comprehensive sexual health education, contraceptive availability, support systems, etc) we will surely see a decline.
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cristobela Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 9:53 pm
Since he asked...
@14:33
Ray Comfort
Finish this sentence for me: It's alright to kill a baby in the womb when ____.
...when a convicted adulteress and adulterer get stoned to death (even if the adulteress were pregnant [regardless of who the father is: the adulterer or her husband's], the baby in her womb dies too) because it's dependent on the mother.
Sometimes YHWH is pro-death (e.g. lawful killing, lawful according to His Law)—thus, by definition, when it is just and merciful according to His Standard. Both pro-choice and pro-life deviate from Scripture. He's against Law-less killing, not all killing.
What's dangerous about Living Waters is that it doesn't help people accurately discern, but overgeneralizes sometimes, painting condemnation of all killing when YHWH is very specific when it is wrong and when it is just.
Thus, the following is misleading,
@16:44-48
Ray Comfort
So you should say it's never right to kill a child in the womb.
...because putting an adulteress to death along with the adulterer (thus the mother is being capitally punished for sins/crimes she committed and just so happens to be pregnant; you do not wait for her to show, and even if she is showing, you do not wait until she gives birth; if they got prosecuted, all three are dying, adulterer, adulteress, and whomever's baby is in her womb)—that is lawful according to YHWH's Commands. So "never right" is a false statement to make.
---
Another case, slightly different, where YHWH says it is lawful for a human to deliberately participate in the potential killing of a child in a woman's womb (may or may not be killing the baby, not guaranteed) would be the case of the jealousy offering (when a man is overcome with feelings of jealousy, suspecting his wife of cheating on him, but there are no witnesses [thus lawfully can't prosecute—can't put the mother to death along with adulterer], YHWH resolves it once and for all, revealing whether she cheated or not) the priest makes the woman drink the bitter water, which, depending on her guilt, would induce a miscarriage.
Numbers 5:19-22 (NIV)
19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[a] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”
Footnotes: a. Numbers 5:21 That is, may he cause your name to be used in cursing (see Jer. 29:22); or, may others see that you are cursed; similarly in verse 27.
If YHWH, with the cooperation of the priest (human agent), causes the miscarriage, that human isn't a lawless baby killer. The guilt of the mother caused it. Even if she remains alive in this case, because lawfully there are no witnesses to the sexual sin, He can still cause them to lose the baby. The baby dying for the mother's infidelity. But because there were no witnesses the woman is kept alive (lawfully commanded mercy to her, the adulteress, along with adulterer, but in this case, not towards the baby in her womb).
Both political stances in this country (pro-choice and pro-life) do not necessarily reflect YHWH's will 100%. There are cases that pro-choice wants to show mercy to the mother that don't agree with YHWH; and there are cases when pro-life wants to show "mercy" to a baby when YHWH doesn't.
---
As far as the Holocaust, some rabbi's acknowledge that it was due to their infidelity to the covenant that YHWH allowed this to happen...
Quote:
Haredi and Hardal Satmar leader Joel Teitelbaum writes:
Because of our sinfulness we have suffered greatly, suffering as bitter as wormwood, worse than any Israel has known since it became a people.... In former times, whenever troubles befell Jacob, the matter was pondered and reasons sought–which sin had brought the troubles about–so that we could make amends and return to the Lord, may He be blessed.... But in our generation one need not look far for the sin responsible for our calamity.... The heretics have made all kinds of efforts to violate these oaths, to go up by force and to seize sovereignty and freedom by themselves, before the appointed time.... [They] have lured the majority of the Jewish people into awful heresy, the likes of which have not been seen since the world was created.... And so it is no wonder that the Lord has lashed out in anger.... And there were also righteous people who perished because of the iniquity of the sinners and corrupters, so great was the [divine] wrath.[7]
...so, yes, it could be argued that it was Hitler's free will choice, and it was wrong despite YHWH using it for good (lawful reasons, executing justice), but it's the same as YHWH being pro-life yet allowing death to punish sinners (e.g. like He used the Assyrian king and his army in the past against Israel [Isaiah 10:5-19]). Here too YHWH identifies the king of Assyria as an idolater (as Ray Comfort rightly identifies Hitler), and it's YHWH sending it as judgment against His people for deviating (though in the end, YHWH would kill the Assyrians for their pride in return):
Isaiah 10:5-19 (NIV)
5 “Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! 6 I send him against a godless nation, I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets. 7 But this is not what he intends, this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations. 8 ‘Are not my commanders all kings?’ he says. 9 ‘Has not Kalno fared like Carchemish? Is not Hamath like Arpad, and Samaria like Damascus? 10 As my hand seized the kingdoms of the idols, kingdoms whose images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria— 11 shall I not deal with Jerusalem and her images as I dealt with Samaria and her idols?’”
12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, “I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes. 13 For he says:
“‘By the strength of my hand I have done this, and by my wisdom, because I have understanding. I removed the boundaries of nations, I plundered their treasures; like a mighty one I subdued[a] their kings. 14 As one reaches into a nest, so my hand reached for the wealth of the nations; as people gather abandoned eggs, so I gathered all the countries; not one flapped a wing, or opened its mouth to chirp.’”
15 Does the ax raise itself above the person who swings it, or the saw boast against the one who uses it? As if a rod were to wield the person who lifts it up, or a club brandish the one who is not wood! 16 Therefore, the Lord, the Lord Almighty, will send a wasting disease upon his sturdy warriors; under his pomp a fire will be kindled like a blazing flame. 17 The Light of Israel will become a fire, their Holy One a flame; in a single day it will burn and consume his thorns and his briers. 18 The splendor of his forests and fertile fields it will completely destroy, as when a sick person wastes away. 19 And the remaining trees of his forests will be so few that a child could write them down.
Footnotes: a. Isaiah 10:13 Or treasures; / I subdued the mighty,
Pitting the topic, be it Holocaust or ending a child's life in the womb, as overly-simplified as "pro-choice" and "pro-life" won't reflect Scripture.
Political stances should not supersede and nullify what Scripture says in its totality. YHWH is more nuanced than both of them and His standards of justice different/higher.
Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:13 am
cristobela
Since he asked...
@14:33
Ray Comfort
Finish this sentence for me: It's alright to kill a baby in the womb when ____.
...when a convicted adulteress and adulterer get stoned to death (even if the adulteress were pregnant [regardless of who the father is: the adulterer or her husband's], the baby in her womb dies too) because it's dependent on the mother.
Sometimes YHWH is pro-death (e.g. lawful killing, lawful according to His Law)—thus, by definition, when it is just and merciful according to His Standard. Both pro-choice and pro-life deviate from Scripture. He's against Law-less killing, not all killing.
What's dangerous about Living Waters is that it doesn't help people accurately discern, but overgeneralizes sometimes, painting condemnation of all killing when YHWH is very specific when it is wrong and when it is just.
Thus, the following is misleading,
@16:44-48
Ray Comfort
So you should say it's never right to kill a child in the womb.
...because putting an adulteress to death along with the adulterer (thus the mother is being capitally punished for sins/crimes she committed and just so happens to be pregnant; you do not wait for her to show, and even if she is showing, you do not wait until she gives birth; if they got prosecuted, all three are dying, adulterer, adulteress, and whomever's baby is in her womb)—that is lawful according to YHWH's Commands. So "never right" is a false statement to make.
---
Another case, slightly different, where YHWH says it is lawful for a human to deliberately participate in the potential killing of a child in a woman's womb (may or may not be killing the baby, not guaranteed) would be the case of the jealousy offering (when a man is overcome with feelings of jealousy, suspecting his wife of cheating on him, but there are no witnesses [thus lawfully can't prosecute—can't put the mother to death along with adulterer], YHWH resolves it once and for all, revealing whether she cheated or not) the priest makes the woman drink the bitter water, which, depending on her guilt, would induce a miscarriage.
Numbers 5:19-22 (NIV)
19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[a] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”
Footnotes: a. Numbers 5:21 That is, may he cause your name to be used in cursing (see Jer. 29:22); or, may others see that you are cursed; similarly in verse 27.
If YHWH, with the cooperation of the priest (human agent), causes the miscarriage, that human isn't a lawless baby killer. The guilt of the mother caused it. Even if she remains alive in this case, because lawfully there are no witnesses to the sexual sin, He can still cause them to lose the baby. The baby dying for the mother's infidelity. But because there were no witnesses the woman is kept alive (lawfully commanded mercy to her, the adulteress, along with adulterer, but in this case, not towards the baby in her womb).
Both political stances in this country (pro-choice and pro-life) do not necessarily reflect YHWH's will 100%. There are cases that pro-choice wants to show mercy to the mother that don't agree with YHWH; and there are cases when pro-life wants to show "mercy" to a baby when YHWH doesn't.
---
As far as the Holocaust, some rabbi's acknowledge that it was due to their infidelity to the covenant that YHWH allowed this to happen...
Quote:
Haredi and Hardal Satmar leader Joel Teitelbaum writes:
Because of our sinfulness we have suffered greatly, suffering as bitter as wormwood, worse than any Israel has known since it became a people.... In former times, whenever troubles befell Jacob, the matter was pondered and reasons sought–which sin had brought the troubles about–so that we could make amends and return to the Lord, may He be blessed.... But in our generation one need not look far for the sin responsible for our calamity.... The heretics have made all kinds of efforts to violate these oaths, to go up by force and to seize sovereignty and freedom by themselves, before the appointed time.... [They] have lured the majority of the Jewish people into awful heresy, the likes of which have not been seen since the world was created.... And so it is no wonder that the Lord has lashed out in anger.... And there were also righteous people who perished because of the iniquity of the sinners and corrupters, so great was the [divine] wrath.[7]
...so, yes, it could be argued that it was Hitler's free will choice, and it was wrong despite YHWH using it for good (lawful reasons, executing justice), but it's the same as YHWH being pro-life yet allowing death to punish sinners (e.g. like He used the Assyrian king and his army in the past against Israel [Isaiah 10:5-19]). Here too YHWH identifies the king of Assyria as an idolater (as Ray Comfort rightly identifies Hitler), and it's YHWH sending it as judgment against His people for deviating (though in the end, YHWH would kill the Assyrians for their pride in return):
Isaiah 10:5-19 (NIV)
5 “Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! 6 I send him against a godless nation, I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets. 7 But this is not what he intends, this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations. 8 ‘Are not my commanders all kings?’ he says. 9 ‘Has not Kalno fared like Carchemish? Is not Hamath like Arpad, and Samaria like Damascus? 10 As my hand seized the kingdoms of the idols, kingdoms whose images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria— 11 shall I not deal with Jerusalem and her images as I dealt with Samaria and her idols?’”
12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, “I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes. 13 For he says:
“‘By the strength of my hand I have done this, and by my wisdom, because I have understanding. I removed the boundaries of nations, I plundered their treasures; like a mighty one I subdued[a] their kings. 14 As one reaches into a nest, so my hand reached for the wealth of the nations; as people gather abandoned eggs, so I gathered all the countries; not one flapped a wing, or opened its mouth to chirp.’”
15 Does the ax raise itself above the person who swings it, or the saw boast against the one who uses it? As if a rod were to wield the person who lifts it up, or a club brandish the one who is not wood! 16 Therefore, the Lord, the Lord Almighty, will send a wasting disease upon his sturdy warriors; under his pomp a fire will be kindled like a blazing flame. 17 The Light of Israel will become a fire, their Holy One a flame; in a single day it will burn and consume his thorns and his briers. 18 The splendor of his forests and fertile fields it will completely destroy, as when a sick person wastes away. 19 And the remaining trees of his forests will be so few that a child could write them down.
Footnotes: a. Isaiah 10:13 Or treasures; / I subdued the mighty,
Pitting the topic, be it Holocaust or ending a child's life in the womb, as overly-simplified as "pro-choice" and "pro-life" won't reflect Scripture.
Political stances should not supersede and nullify what Scripture says in its totality. YHWH is more nuanced than both of them and His standards of justice different/higher.
So the 1st part of your argument is basically that if the parents are in adultery, it is okay to kill the child? The passage in Numbers is actually mistranslated. In the NIV, it says "May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries." That is a poor translation of this passage. The KJV says "And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen."
And basically it is up to God to take away human life. He is the giver of life, and He is to take it away. Genesis 9:6 says "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. " Is the baby exempt from this rule?
Also, I do have a question. I am not sure if you answered this or not, still need to go through all of your post. Is the fetus in the mother's womb a baby?
Biblical_Counselor
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cristobela Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 9:46 am
edit: typo corrected
reply quoted, but put in spoiler tags to reduce page stretching:
Answers_in_Genesis
cristobela
Since he asked...
@14:33
Ray Comfort
Finish this sentence for me: It's alright to kill a baby in the womb when ____.
...when a convicted adulteress and adulterer get stoned to death (even if the adulteress were pregnant [regardless of who the father is: the adulterer or her husband's], the baby in her womb dies too) because it's dependent on the mother.
Sometimes YHWH is pro-death (e.g. lawful killing, lawful according to His Law)—thus, by definition, when it is just and merciful according to His Standard. Both pro-choice and pro-life deviate from Scripture. He's against Law-less killing, not all killing.
What's dangerous about Living Waters is that it doesn't help people accurately discern, but overgeneralizes sometimes, painting condemnation of all killing when YHWH is very specific when it is wrong and when it is just.
Thus, the following is misleading,
@16:44-48
Ray Comfort
So you should say it's never right to kill a child in the womb.
...because putting an adulteress to death along with the adulterer (thus the mother is being capitally punished for sins/crimes she committed and just so happens to be pregnant; you do not wait for her to show, and even if she is showing, you do not wait until she gives birth; if they got prosecuted, all three are dying, adulterer, adulteress, and whomever's baby is in her womb)—that is lawful according to YHWH's Commands. So "never right" is a false statement to make.
---
Another case, slightly different, where YHWH says it is lawful for a human to deliberately participate in the potential killing of a child in a woman's womb (may or may not be killing the baby, not guaranteed) would be the case of the jealousy offering (when a man is overcome with feelings of jealousy, suspecting his wife of cheating on him, but there are no witnesses [thus lawfully can't prosecute—can't put the mother to death along with adulterer], YHWH resolves it once and for all, revealing whether she cheated or not) the priest makes the woman drink the bitter water, which, depending on her guilt, would induce a miscarriage.
Numbers 5:19-22 (NIV)
19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[a] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”
Footnotes: a. Numbers 5:21 That is, may he cause your name to be used in cursing (see Jer. 29:22); or, may others see that you are cursed; similarly in verse 27.
If YHWH, with the cooperation of the priest (human agent), causes the miscarriage, that human isn't a lawless baby killer. The guilt of the mother caused it. Even if she remains alive in this case, because lawfully there are no witnesses to the sexual sin, He can still cause them to lose the baby. The baby dying for the mother's infidelity. But because there were no witnesses the woman is kept alive (lawfully commanded mercy to her, the adulteress, along with adulterer, but in this case, not towards the baby in her womb).
Both political stances in this country (pro-choice and pro-life) do not necessarily reflect YHWH's will 100%. There are cases that pro-choice wants to show mercy to the mother that don't agree with YHWH; and there are cases when pro-life wants to show "mercy" to a baby when YHWH doesn't.
---
As far as the Holocaust, some rabbi's acknowledge that it was due to their infidelity to the covenant that YHWH allowed this to happen...
Quote:
Haredi and Hardal Satmar leader Joel Teitelbaum writes:
Because of our sinfulness we have suffered greatly, suffering as bitter as wormwood, worse than any Israel has known since it became a people.... In former times, whenever troubles befell Jacob, the matter was pondered and reasons sought–which sin had brought the troubles about–so that we could make amends and return to the Lord, may He be blessed.... But in our generation one need not look far for the sin responsible for our calamity.... The heretics have made all kinds of efforts to violate these oaths, to go up by force and to seize sovereignty and freedom by themselves, before the appointed time.... [They] have lured the majority of the Jewish people into awful heresy, the likes of which have not been seen since the world was created.... And so it is no wonder that the Lord has lashed out in anger.... And there were also righteous people who perished because of the iniquity of the sinners and corrupters, so great was the [divine] wrath.[7]
...so, yes, it could be argued that it was Hitler's free will choice, and it was wrong despite YHWH using it for good (lawful reasons, executing justice), but it's the same as YHWH being pro-life yet allowing death to punish sinners (e.g. like He used the Assyrian king and his army in the past against Israel [Isaiah 10:5-19]). Here too YHWH identifies the king of Assyria as an idolater (as Ray Comfort rightly identifies Hitler), and it's YHWH sending it as judgment against His people for deviating (though in the end, YHWH would kill the Assyrians for their pride in return):
Isaiah 10:5-19 (NIV)
5 “Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! 6 I send him against a godless nation, I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets. 7 But this is not what he intends, this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations. 8 ‘Are not my commanders all kings?’ he says. 9 ‘Has not Kalno fared like Carchemish? Is not Hamath like Arpad, and Samaria like Damascus? 10 As my hand seized the kingdoms of the idols, kingdoms whose images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria— 11 shall I not deal with Jerusalem and her images as I dealt with Samaria and her idols?’”
12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, “I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes. 13 For he says:
“‘By the strength of my hand I have done this, and by my wisdom, because I have understanding. I removed the boundaries of nations, I plundered their treasures; like a mighty one I subdued[a] their kings. 14 As one reaches into a nest, so my hand reached for the wealth of the nations; as people gather abandoned eggs, so I gathered all the countries; not one flapped a wing, or opened its mouth to chirp.’”
15 Does the ax raise itself above the person who swings it, or the saw boast against the one who uses it? As if a rod were to wield the person who lifts it up, or a club brandish the one who is not wood! 16 Therefore, the Lord, the Lord Almighty, will send a wasting disease upon his sturdy warriors; under his pomp a fire will be kindled like a blazing flame. 17 The Light of Israel will become a fire, their Holy One a flame; in a single day it will burn and consume his thorns and his briers. 18 The splendor of his forests and fertile fields it will completely destroy, as when a sick person wastes away. 19 And the remaining trees of his forests will be so few that a child could write them down.
Footnotes: a. Isaiah 10:13 Or treasures; / I subdued the mighty,
Pitting the topic, be it Holocaust or ending a child's life in the womb, as overly-simplified as "pro-choice" and "pro-life" won't reflect Scripture.
Political stances should not supersede and nullify what Scripture says in its totality. YHWH is more nuanced than both of them and His standards of justice different/higher.
So the 1st part of your argument is basically that if the parents are in adultery, it is okay to kill the child? The passage in Numbers is actually mistranslated. In the NIV, it says "May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries." That is a poor translation of this passage. The KJV says "And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen."
And basically it is up to God to take away human life. He is the giver of life, and He is to take it away. Genesis 9:6 says "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. " Is the baby exempt from this rule?
Also, I do have a question. I am not sure if you answered this or not, still need to go through all of your post. Is the fetus in the mother's womb a baby?
---
Answers_in_Genesis
So the 1st part of your argument is basically that if the parents are in adultery, it is okay to kill the child?
The mother—in whose womb the baby is—is being put to death, so yes: YHWH has given permission to kill a child in the womb in that case. They're being put to death for their capital crimes (sin/lawless behavior) by the courts. Causing the death of the baby in her womb if she's pregnant.
Answers_in_Genesis
The passage in Numbers is actually mistranslated. In the NIV, it says "May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries." That is a poor translation of this passage. The KJV says "And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen."
That doesn't change the biological impairment of her body. Whether being rendered sterile or inducing a miscarriage, had she been impregnated by the act of adultery, that baby may not be surviving sterilization or coming to full term. And the human (priest) is not a lawless baby killer for having cooperated with YHWH's Command, despite the potential of killing the child in the womb in such a case.
Answers_in_Genesis
And basically it is up to God to take away human life. He is the giver of life, and He is to take it away.
I am aware of this. That's why it is His Law, His Word, that I'm bringing up where He gives the permissions to mankind for when to take life or not.
I'm not talking about the laws of the nations nor the ideas of mere men.
Answers_in_Genesis
Genesis 9:6 says "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. " Is the baby exempt from this rule?
When YHWH exempts the baby, yes. Like in the examples I brought forth (whether the mother [adulteress] is dying along with the baby [when prosecuted and put to death by man, by the courts, for her sins worthy of death along with the adulterer] or not dying with the baby [no witnesses to the adultery]: but the baby still dying for the mother's sins, under her cursed body, induced by priest + YHWH, for the reason of her adultery/infidelity that cannot be prosecuted by the courts because there were no two-to-three witnesses, bodily changes that could impede the baby coming to full term. If the mere consumption of certain foods to an otherwise healthy body—e.g. unripe papayas—can cause a miscarriage, how much more God, through oath, human agent (priest) involved, and your own guilt, bringing a curse onto your bodily organs, causing them to swell abnormally [this is disease, affliction, not a healthy body] and to rot away cause miscarriage. I am aware of how the KJV reads).
Ergo, it is false to say it is "never" right to cause the death of a child in the womb—which is the focus of my reply, correcting Ray Comfort's false doctrinal statement.
I've already emphasized three times in that reply that neither my focus nor interest is in the pro-choice/pro-life political debate. I'm defending what the Word of YHWH says.
Answers_in_Genesis
Also, I do have a question. I am not sure if you answered this or not, still need to go through all of your post. Is the fetus in the mother's womb a baby?
Yes, the fetal human in the mother's womb is a baby, and equally as human as the mother.
---
For the record, what I originally came back here to do is add further context (the reason the king of Assyria is an idolater) in case it wasn't apparent; he is an idolater because:
[1] He doesn't worship YHWH [2] He worships himself
(equivalent to worshiping his own notions of God, making God in whatever image he wants, not as He revealed Himself to be)
[3] he's acting out of greed, not to please YHWH, the truth, what YHWH says is right. But merely following the treasure.
1 Samuel 15:23 (NIV)
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you as king.”
Nehemiah 9:29 (NIV)
29 “You warned them in order to turn them back to your law, but they became arrogant and disobeyed your commands. They sinned against your ordinances, of which you said, ‘The person who obeys them will live by them.’ Stubbornly they turned their backs on you, became stiff-necked and refused to listen.
Colossians 3:5 (NIV)
5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.
Isaiah 57:17 (NIV)
17 I was enraged by their sinful greed; I punished them, and hid my face in anger, yet they kept on in their willful ways.
Greed doesn't respect the limits and needs of others (even willing to take what rightfully should go to someone else or belongs to someone else, hence why it gets translated as covetous in certain translations); it's a voracious appetite for more and more, not sufficed with the lot YHWH has given them (in response to prayer and promises and Lawfully-given permissions).
(Yes, this greed would include lawless reasons to take life).
And to re-emphasize: I'm highlighting the deviance from YHWH's Word in the video. I do not support lawless killing of babies in the womb (e.g. for greedy / selfish, and other Law-less reasons). I'm arguing against the doctrinal statements Ray Comfort made that it is "never" right to kill a child in the womb.
Do not read my replies in the frame of mind of "pro-choice" vs. "pro-life". I'm pro-YHWH [pro-whatever He says is right to do in any given situation]. I spotted deviance from the Word of God, regardless of whether they affiliate with YHWH or not, and corrected it drawing attention to the fact that we actually have to pay attention to everything He says.
In the case of rape, I would say that if the mother is not being put to death but spared (because it wasn't an act of infidelity against her betrothed or husband), and there is no sexual sin involved otherwise, then neither should the baby be put to death, but also be spared.
To demonstrate:
If she is being put to death in response to the rape, because she—to anyone witnessing—didn't make any signs of resistance, but enjoyed the sexual advances of another man (and this external sign of resistance for the sake of people being able to prosecute in court, YHWH knows whether you wanted this or not), thus was unfaithful to her betrothed or husband, consequently if prosecuted, and there were two to three witnesses, put to death, then so would the baby in her womb be put to death because she is being put to death.
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 (NIV)
23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.
If she is not being put to death, because it was evident that she resisted the rape/did not desire the sexual encounter, but resisted, then neither will the baby in her womb be put to death...
Deuteronomy 22:25-27 (NIV)
25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.
If she is being spared (because this wasn't an act of infidelity against her betrothed or husband), then so would any baby in her womb be spared, in this case; and if she's a virgin, and she became pregnant from this rape, then obviously it's the baby of the rapist; thus even if the rape resulted in pregnancy the baby is spared. The mother did not commit a sin worthy of death; she's spared and so is her baby (regardless of whom it belongs to, betrothed/husband or rapist).
As has already been established, the only reason a baby gets put to death in the womb, by men, Law-fully, is due to the sins of the mother (infidelity); otherwise, to kill the baby in her womb is a crime/sin.
Exodus 21:22-25 (NIV)
22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[a] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Footnotes:
a. Exodus 21:22 Or she has a miscarriage
Yes, life is sacred and the One who gave life gave permission for when to take that life away, adult or baby human alike, and outside of those permissions, it is lawless killing.
For the record, Jesus is not against stoning to death when it is Law-ful (but is against stoning when it is lawless, not acknowledging the full extent of the Law e.g. needing two to three truthful witnesses and adulterer too if adulteress is being condemned to death i.e. John 8:1-11). Otherwise, He had nothing against capitally punishing sins.
Matthew 15:1-9 (NIV)
15 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]”
Footnotes:
a. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 20:12; Deut. 5:16 b. Matthew 15:4 Exodus 21:17; Lev. 20:9 c. Matthew 15:9 Isaiah 29:13
And in the case of the woman caught in adultery, John 8:1-11, either the Pharisees were not witnesses in the sense of condemning based on hearsay and rumor, not witnessing the act itself or they were not witnesses in the sense of being participants, the adultering half of her adulteressing (like Judah wanting Tamar burned alive for prostituting when he was the one who slept with her [Genesis 38]). One does not merely quote selectively from the Pentateuch, but looks comprehensively, the totality, of what Moses said; hence:
John 8:1-11 (NIV)
8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
Because the Law says:
Deuteronomy 17:6-7 (NIV)
6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting that person to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.
Leviticus 20:10 (NIV)
10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.
You had to actually [1] be a witness to the sin in the process of it being committed AND [2] not be the adulterer half of the adulteress. Either way, in order to prosecute her, they would be put to death in return because a false witness (saying you saw something you actually didn't, being false about what you witnessed or not, just as much as outright lying and fabricating, making stuff up) is condemned to death just as much as the adulterer.
Deuteronomy 19:18-20 (NIV)
18 The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against a fellow Israelite, 19 then do to the false witness as that witness intended to do to the other party. You must purge the evil from among you. 20 The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you.
The fact that Jesus was the only witness left (because He's God), the Pharisees were either false witnesses or adulterers with her (not without sin but involved in the crime). They were not going to come out of this prosecution alive.
The Pharisees were testing Jesus, but they were not acknowledging the full scope of what Moses actually wrote and that Jesus drew attention back to (i.e. everything the Law of YHWH says). Thus the Pharisees were being lawless in their pursuit to condemn to death. Otherwise, as Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for in Mt 15, there were cases He expected them to rightfully condemn to death according to the Law, and yet they didn't then based on whose opinion? man's not what YHWH said.
As long as we deviate on something (are lawless—in either extreme: lawless condemnation [wanting adulteress stoned but no adulterer and there are no two to three truthful witnesses i.e. John 8:1-11] or lawless mercy [sparing the one who curses father and mother despite YHWH allowing two to three witnesses to catch them in the act—thus YHWH wanting them caught and expelled, not forgiven i.e. Mt 15:1-9]), we arouse YHWH's wrath because it's injustice.
And at the foundation of all this is to understand: the allowance for sinless sacrifice aside (lawful), bloodshed is only unjust (wrong/not allowed) when it is lawless. Thus why men can put murderers to death and not be murderers themselves for executing justice. Same with sexual sins worthy of death:
Leviticus 20:12 (NIV)
12 “‘If a man has sexual relations with his daughter-in-law, both of them are to be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.
side note: obviously, the daughter-in-law wanted/enjoyed it and did not protest this sexual advance; this isn't a case of rape of the betrothed / married woman. Thus why they're both guilty in this case.
Ezekiel 9:9 (NIV)
9 He answered me, “The sin of the people of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, ‘The Lord has forsaken the land; the Lord does not see.’
Proverbs 22:8 (NIV)
8 Whoever sows injustice reaps calamity, and the rod they wield in fury will be broken.
Jeremiah 23:10 (NIV)
10 The land is full of adulterers; because of the curse[a] the land lies parched and the pastures in the wilderness are withered. The prophets follow an evil course and use their power unjustly.
Footnotes:
a. Jeremiah 23:10 Or because of these things
Luke 16:18 (NIV)
18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Psalm 119:134 (NIV)
134 Redeem me from human oppression, that I may obey your precepts.
Isaiah 58:9 (NIV)
9 Then you will call, and the Lord will answer; you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I. “If you do away with the yoke of oppression, with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
Jeremiah 6:6 (NIV)
6 This is what the Lord Almighty says:
“Cut down the trees and build siege ramps against Jerusalem. This city must be punished; it is filled with oppression.
2 Kings 17:15 (NIV)
15 They rejected his decrees and the covenant he had made with their ancestors and the statutes he had warned them to keep. They followed worthless idols and themselves became worthless. They imitated the nations around them although the Lord had ordered them, “Do not do as they do.”
Ezekiel 20:24-25 (NIV)
24 because they had not obeyed my laws but had rejected my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths, and their eyes lusted after their parents’ idols. 25 So I gave them other statutes that were not good and laws through which they could not live;
Deuteronomy 32:16 (NIV)
16 They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols.
Ezekiel 20:8 (NIV)
8 “‘But they rebelled against me and would not listen to me; they did not get rid of the vile images they had set their eyes on, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in Egypt.
They're idolaters: they (His own people) reject the Word of the Lord, paint their own notions of what God is like, what He approves of or not, or like the Pharisees, selectively quoting from Moses not heeding the totality of what Moses says, despite what He revealed in His Word. We need to stop denying what He said about Himself, but acknowledge the permissions He gave (and did not give), in the circumstances He allows it, and just accept everything He said. Otherwise, He will punish the land: whether it is the lawless killing of children in the womb or the lawless sparing of unrepentant adulterers and adulteresses; He sends judgment on the land equally for both lawlessnesses (lawless condemnation and lawless mercy).
Rejecting what He revealed about Himself is idolatry. He punishes that deviance. In and outside of man's courts, whether the courts are just and submitted to His Commands or it's gentile government (and He's going to punish it outside the courts through divinely-sent calamity and natural circumstance). This country is not going to be safe from His wrath just for being pro-life but in a deviant manner that condemns the examples He would allow (for infidelity / sexual immorality of the mother, and she's being condemned to death upon two to three witnesses coming forth, along with adulterer) and/or that invoke His divine intervention to reveal infidelity, through human agent invoking a curse, upon oath, and the mother drinking bitter water, causing the death of the child in said woman's womb even if she herself is not stoned to death along with the adulterer. They're deceiving themselves. We can't say it's never right to kill a child in the womb because when the mother has been unfaithful / committed infidelity, it happens if she's condemned to death (two to three witness, lawfully prosecuted to death in the courts) and she's pregnant, or not condemned to death, but cursed by priest (for her infidelity) making her take an oath that reveals, through divine intervention and drinking of the bitter water, whether she committed adultery or not.
I'm not interested in the laws of the nations, but in YHWH's Law.
Ezekiel 5:7 (NIV)
7 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: You have been more unruly than the nations around you and have not followed my decrees or kept my laws. You have not even[a] conformed to the standards of the nations around you.
Footnotes:
a. Ezekiel 5:7 Most Hebrew manuscripts; some Hebrew manuscripts and Syriac You have
Ezekiel 11:12 (NIV)
12 And you will know that I am the Lord, for you have not followed my decrees or kept my laws but have conformed to the standards of the nations around you.”
Despite YHWH allowing the nations to establish their own self-governments, they're not the actual standard of justice and mercy; His Law is.
For the record, when exiled and living amongst gentiles (the nations), whose courts submit to different laws, the jurisdiction to stone to death (capitally punish sins through the courts) isn't ours. But the gentile governments' for whatever crime (lawless behavior) they deem merits death; they serve God. At most, we expel sinners who refuse to repent from sins from our congregations for staying unrepentant in sin and refusing to agree with God and turn away from it. They will be judged by gentile courts and by God outside of our congregations.
Whatever possible reason you have for not wanting to acknowledge when YHWH gives permission to end human life, I expect this reply sufficiently addressed it. Whether the human is adult or fetal, there are certain cases/circumstances when He does give permission i.e. those described in His Law. Otherwise, no, you're being a lawless killer (murderer).
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