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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:06 am
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:09 am
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Well, then, I guess you're not going to the reunion, simple as that. Obviously you haven't posted this here for advice, if you've already made up your mind about it.
It's odd, though. You've asked us as a community not to judge you about your beliefs. Fair enough. Won't say a word. But I find it rather strange, because you've already cast your own judgment on Lee's wife, without ever having met her.
Do you think that's particularly fair? I mean, if you do, then that settles it, I suppose. But doesn't this strike you as a double standard?
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High-functioning Cutesmasher
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:27 pm
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:33 pm
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:32 pm
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I agree with BlueberryJoy in the fact that it does not seem like you are asking for advice or a conversation at all for that matter. Perhaps a rant forum would have been more appropriate?
But being that it is in a conversation forum, I will try to reply in a serious and intellectual manner.
I have had a friend whose mother was strongly against inter-racial relationships, and a friend of my father had a wife and daughter who also had this belief. My grandmother also seemed to be of this belief, but one interesting thing I would like to point out is that my grandmother is hispanic, not white {I wanted to point this out because there are those that believe only white people have discriminatory feelings toward other races}
I believe the line of thinking they had was that different skin color is akin to being another species and one should stick to their own kind so as to not alter their gene pool in a possibly negative manner. However, it is of my belief that skin color is completely irrelevant. If people of different skin color were meant to stay with people of the same skin color, then their reproductive systems would not be compatible enough to produce offspring. For example, a man and a dog cannot have children because human sperm and canine ova are incompatible.
To believe someone should not date or marry another because of skin color would be the same as believing they should not date because of a difference in eye or hair color. These are all aesthetic traits and thus should be viewed as the same. If you find nothing wrong with people of different eye and hair color dating and marrying, perhaps your skin color belief should be reevaluated.
It is much easier to just say, "I was raised like this so this is who I am." than it is to accept new ideas. I come across this a lot when speaking of religion. To accept a new idea does not necessarily mean agreeing with it. If you strongly believe that inter-racial relationships are not "natural" or "right" and feel that there is no way you could change this belief, this does not mean that you have to shun or disconnect yourself from those that think and practice otherwise. You can agree to disagree.
If you have never even been around inter-racial couples, I think it would be a good idea to at least try for a moment to be around them and see how it is and how you feel. If you have no experience with the situation, then it is harder to properly evaluate. In the instance you have described, if you feel uncomfortable being around them, you have the option of removing yourself from their presence.
I do agree that it was not the best idea of your parents to try to keep the fact that Lee and Nonie would be there from you, especially with your condition, however, I do not think that complete rejection of the idea of meeting them is the best answer, even if you do strongly disagree with their marriage... or rather -especially- if you strongly disagree with their marriage.
When I disagree with someone on a subject, I do not stop talking to them and try to distance myself with them. Instead, I try to talk to them more and find out more about why they feel this way so I can better understand why. Only under the circumstances that you feel too uncomfortable to bear with it or come under personal attacks should there be reason to end contact.
I also wanted to note this:
lenoree I have decided not to go to my sisters for thanksgiving. If she can't respect my feelings then I don't care about hers. You are disrespecting more than just the feelings of your sister in this situation. Though they possibly do not show or talk about it, in some way it seems you are hurting the rest of your family as well. If you care more about your own feelings than theirs, then not going is the right thing to do. Also..
lenoree I grew up with racial parents. Black people were N****s. And everything about them was bad. I can't understand how my parents could be that way then, but be ok with Lee and Nonie. Believe it or not, people can change. It is possible that over the years, your parents have come to better understand how society works and what is and is not acceptable by social standards in this day and age, or possibly moreover, have cleared up any misconceptions of black people that they had in the past. It is possible that your own feelings and beliefs stem from the misconceptions your parents had and you continue to hold on to. If you do not take steps to learn more about why exactly you feel this way and if it is with any good reason whatsoever, then of course you will continue to feel this way.
A person who lives only in darkness knows not of light, and a person who lives only in light knows not of darkness. In darkness, talk of light in a positive manner would be seen as offensive, and exposure to light would burn the skin and eyes. In light, talk of darkness would be offensive, and exposure to darkness would leave one blind and cold. However, the more they are exposed, the more they can appreciate what it brings. It is best to walk in both the light and darkness... understanding both. If you only live in one, you will never understand the other.
Ill will is often the result of misunderstandings.
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:08 pm
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High-functioning Cutesmasher
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:17 pm
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:20 pm
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:00 pm
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Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:05 pm
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:59 am
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lenoree . Thanks for not being as mean to me as I know you probably would have liked. I probably should have never made that post, because now, even though I asked not to be judged, that's exactly what everyone on here is doing. Well, I'm not a bad person just because I don't agree with inter-racial relationships. I'm not the only person out there who thinks that way. I'm just not afraid to admit it.
With all due respect, no one here has done any judging, nor commented on it to the point of being cruel. And, to say "as I know you probably would have liked" in reference to being mean... That is completely unacceptable and uncalled for.
People here showed you a serious level of patience by admitting they had to step back before they said anything that would have been truly mean. You need to recognize this and to not acknowledge that is wrong. You passed a level of pre-determined judgement by saying everyone here is judging you. That in itself was wrong as well.
While I commend you for having to courage to share this, and Im sure you had a personal conflict of interest in wondering how this would be handled, you have to remember this very important element:
In expressing any opinion, you will ALWAYS have people who dont believe what you (or anyone) express. People have the right to say "I disagree".... but, how it is communicated is much more important. I stepped back and read every post on this topic so far, and let me say... I feel everyone's emotions, including yours, in these posts... Everyone, and I mean everyone who has responded has done so with the utmost highest level of restraint and expressed in a very careful and calculated manner. They are to be commended for handling themselves extremely well.
This is NOT an easy subject matter. I am not going to pass judgement on you here, but I will definitely say this....
You really should consider some serious psychological help. To have this much disgust towards inter-racial relationships tells me there is something you have not shared with people due to being rather guarded.... I detect you may have had experienced something in your life that has put you in this level of belief-system that maybe even you are unaware of, perhaps on a more subconscious level. This level is not healthy at all... in fact I wonder if this is contributing towards your anxiety disorders? You mentioned social anxiety issues, and I cant help but picture something here that may have contributed to your beliefs.... This is not judgement, this is more of what I am detecting from your posts. Behavioral patterns is something I am able to pick up on from my line of work... and I must admit, you have me concerned on a very genuine level.
The most important thing to always remember, and this goes along with work, school, doctor office visits, every and all facets of life: We all walk with two feet, we all have the same color blood that runs in our veins, we all share the same human characteristics of one another regardless of where our roots may have been grounded. We have all the same impulses and desires, always wanting to do more for one another, and want whats best for ourselves and each other... regardless of where we come from, what our skin color is, lifestyle, nationality is or whether we are from a disadvantaged or advantaged lifestyle.
I have a cousin (she is the second oldest) who is married to a man who is half-black half-phillipino.
My Korean brother (by marriage and I dont believe in calling him Stepbrother, he is my brother), who was adopted by his Italian father, is married to his second Mexican wife. He has a beautiful daughter from his first marriage who has the benefit of being in a blended heritage.
My Korean sister, may she rest in peace was also adopted by the same, was dating a few black young men in college, Harvard to be exact...
My mother and her second husband had my sister Sandra, who is half French, Half Italian.
My whole family immigrated to the United States from Normandy. I am from both sides of the family, 100% pure French.
My first husband was half-Native american and half british. My soon-to-be second husband is a self-proclaimed Mutt.. .they lost track of his nationalities by the year 1926 because of several families immigrating here from overseas...
My daughter is 75% french, and 25% culturally-confused, as she likes to call it. Her father, with whom I never married, is part British, french and indian as far as we were able to research. She spends time checking out the cute and hot asian boys at school and has no problem admitting it!
By just listing this in my own family, one can definitely say, we embrace life for what it is, very precious... we love our children unconditionally. I only had one relative who had a problem with my cousin marrying someone who was half-black/half phillipino, but coming from a generation (he was born in 1930) that had even more strict family beliefs, this was to be expected. He never once denied them access to his home, he never stopped them from coming to his home when he had family barbeques, because all that mattered to him was that so long as he treats her right, helps to take care of the home, and never lays a hand on her (he had 36 grandchildren, 30 of us are girls), he will accept him for the man he is as long as he respects her, protects her and loves her unconditionally. My grandfather raised me to believe that you can have your differences so long as it doesnt interfere and cause someone else's misery.
If you find that you are miserable over something that someone else has done that you dont like.. you need to ask yourself "How does this affect you and what did it do to you?" If you cant answer yourself that very question, then, there truly isnt a reason to be miserable if it has nothing to do with you.
I dont see anyone here setting you up for anything. Again, you mentioned you have a social anxiety disorder. Sounds like to me your family is trying to include you not torture you. Even though your parents didnt say it, they arent setting you up... if they know you, they know they didnt want to get you mad or upset. I give your sister alot of respect and commendation for trying to help you realize it is a family visit.. I dont see any set up at all. The reason why your sister cant accept you for your beliefs is more valid. Perhaps your anxieties are creating a barrier that allows you to stop up in your tracks..a protective barrier from something that 'might' happen, and not just your strong disbelief in interracial marriages.
What we are taught by our parents, as you have mentioned, you had racial parents who referred to black people as the n-word, that they were bad people, is not always the right way to be taught. Your parents to me, perhaps have grown out of that world of hatred and have learned to embrace that they see differences as an accepted way of life? How do you truly know your Mother 'cant stand Lee as it is' when you are never there?
Things have changed in the last 20-30, maybe even 40 years. You dont always have to listen to what your parents teach you, is the bottom line. My parents were drunken bums who did nothing but beat the s**t out of us, tried teaching us to hate in the worse way possible... as I raise my hand, I was taught so much negativity as a child, became an alcoholic at the age of 13, the victim of so much hatred that, 21 years later, I am the exact opposite of what my parents are.... Im not an alcoholic, Im not a child abuser, I enjoy different cultures and embrace changes and differences, and think it is wonderful to hear of people getting married, and not ever think about "is she white?", because it doesnt matter to me, the actions of others do not affect me because it has absolutely nothing to do with me to begin with.
I hope some day, you can set yourself free of the anxieties that you have. It will help to free your mind, your soul and your life. You will then gain a better mind-set and be more open to things that can be different and glorious...
Your brother (I know you said half, but I personally dont believe in it that) is married to a woman that he loves, and she loves him.. and that is all that should matter.
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:37 am
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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:47 am
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I'm sorry for sort of continuing this topic, especially after you posted that you are willing to give dinner a try. .but I still feel like I didn't say everything I waned to.
First, I was thinking about it and your excuse for being so racist was that your parents were. . . well, to that I have to say: Don't your siblings have the same parents!? - Half brother aside, (who still has the same father, and thus at least one parent in common w/ racism) your sister is included in this as well.
The brother who married interracially. The sister who got over whatever brainwashing your parents convinced you to believe. Your parents, who you claim are the original source. . . who have gotten over it. This excuse of "its all their fault, they made me this way" is full of holes. There is no reason to act this way.
Of course, the problem inherent in racism is its irrationality. No matter what anyone says to you, you're not going to just up and change. it has to come from within. Maybe this is your first step. But you have to realize that this behavior is actually changeable. . . social anxiety or not. There is no reason to perpetuate such hatred in yourself or the world.
Just holding onto this feeling of being "not ok" with his marriage causes you stress, and on top of that, exacerbates your 'conditional anxiety'. Life would be a lot easier, rationally, if you let it be. What is this relationship doing to you? Can you think of any reason to not be OK with it besides "I was told to think this way" ? Do you believe everything your parents ever told you? Or anyone for that matter? When you think of their relationship seriously, what are they hurting? (please feel free to list your reasoning. I am a psych / communications major and would be willing to try to help you with this)
Like someone said above me, its perfectly fine if, after you meet them, decide that you don't like them for other reasons (personality differences, bad habits, whatever). . But it isn't fair to just have this judgment on something so . . . arbitrary as skin color.
again, to restate another wisdom-filled geezer above me, Skin color really is just as arbitrary as eye color or hair color. Even those in the same 'race' have variations in color between them. and the only difference between the genes - specifically in skin color - is the amount of melanin in your skin. (This is a chemical your body produces and depending on how much, it darkens your skin tone)
Oh, a side topic, you mentioned that she wasn't even "American." why is this a problem? critically thinking, would you still be against this non-American stats if she were a white British woman, or from Sweden? or Scotland? or even from S.Africa, where (believe it or not) there are white Africans? (you know, being born in Africa and all). Is there something wrong with not being born in this country? Does it make them less of a person, less worthy? What is the driving fear here? Usually it is underlying and may not even be recognizable to you. This could take some therapy work to get to the cause of. Or a free write, whatever.
One of the reasons this topic got under my skin so much is that I am one of those 'horrible people' who is engaged in an interacial relationship. I have also been in others in the past. My current boyfriend is someone I guess people would consider hispanic, even though he was born here. He is just like every other person I've met on this planet (with the special exception of being special enough to love me ^^) and it would devestate me if anyone I knew felt that our relationship was 'wrong' simply because he is a little bit more tan than I am. I just don't know what I would do if my sister, one of the people closest to me in my family, decided to completely turn against me for this arbitrary reasoning and treat me and my family so awfully.
I sort of want to cut myself off here, but I will keep checking back (or you can PM me)
I wanted to finish by saying thank you for at least giving it a chance. You're taking a good step.
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Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:29 am
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Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:15 pm
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