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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:26 pm
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In my studies of Japanese, one of the least taught things outside of slang and different subgroups are the principles of Japanese society that regulate each and every one of their actions. In particular, the ones that interest me most are 恩(knowledge of, and repayment of any debts, both financial and emotional, like when someone saves you from a fall, or something similar), 義務(When a debt is perceived as so great, only loyalty given to the one who performed the act for them will suffice), 義理(the principle of balancing personal choices with moral obligations, to both companies and loved ones alike) and 人情 (the recognition that underneath it all, we're all human beings and should be regarded as such).
I haven't been able to find a lot of literature either online or off discussing it, so would someone be willing to elaborate on what these principles are and how they factor into speaking Japanese with a Japanese person?
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:00 am
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:25 pm
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:33 pm
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IdiotbyDefault For a interpretation of 義理 I would recommend a book I had in my Japanese Cultural Studies Class: The Japanese Mind. It explains that concept well. It can be found here on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Mind-Understanding-Contemporary-Culture/dp/0804832951/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268802715&sr=8-1-spell Although you listed 義理 and 義務 as separate entries (or shades) of social relationships or ideals of Japanese, it is commonly stated that 義務 takes precedence in spoken Japanese for a sense of moral obligation because when ぎり is said in conversation without proper explanation, it will have a average person thinking that you are talking about a step-relation of some sort. I found this out when studying in Japan. My interpretation of 人情 is basically the obligations one has to another human being based on what we consider the basic human rights for all people. Other things found in Japanese pertaining to these things: 義理チョコ - chocolates given (usually) by girls to guys on valentine's day. The relationship between the two is usually one of close friendship, a colleague, or someone else that is close that is probably not a boyfriend or husband.
Hmm, very interesting stuff. I'll definitely give the book a spin when I can get my hands on a copy. So when discussing owing someone a certain amount of something, it would gravitate more towards the concept of 義務, rather than just general obligation to repay a debt?
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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:45 pm
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Koiyuki IdiotbyDefault For a interpretation of 義理 I would recommend a book I had in my Japanese Cultural Studies Class: The Japanese Mind. It explains that concept well. It can be found here on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Mind-Understanding-Contemporary-Culture/dp/0804832951/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268802715&sr=8-1-spell Although you listed 義理 and 義務 as separate entries (or shades) of social relationships or ideals of Japanese, it is commonly stated that 義務 takes precedence in spoken Japanese for a sense of moral obligation because when ぎり is said in conversation without proper explanation, it will have a average person thinking that you are talking about a step-relation of some sort. I found this out when studying in Japan. My interpretation of 人情 is basically the obligations one has to another human being based on what we consider the basic human rights for all people. Other things found in Japanese pertaining to these things: 義理チョコ - chocolates given (usually) by girls to guys on valentine's day. The relationship between the two is usually one of close friendship, a colleague, or someone else that is close that is probably not a boyfriend or husband. Hmm, very interesting stuff. I'll definitely give the book a spin when I can get my hands on a copy. So when discussing owing someone a certain amount of something, it would gravitate more towards the concept of 義務, rather than just general obligation to repay a debt?
Not really. It is because 義理 (ぎり) is pronounced exactly like the prefix for a step relation (like stepfather, stepmother, etc) of some sort, so to avoid confusion, usually a duty/obligation ends up being 義務 (ぎむ) when used in spoken conversation. I found this out when I tried bringing up the concept as ぎり and my Japanese friend was really confused about it until he told me 義務 was used more frequently to mean that in conversation. I think this also implies that perhaps the contemporary meaning of the word can mean either one, though I think that is not quite a true conclusion about it though.
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Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:54 pm
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IdiotbyDefault Koiyuki IdiotbyDefault For a interpretation of 義理 I would recommend a book I had in my Japanese Cultural Studies Class: The Japanese Mind. It explains that concept well. It can be found here on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Mind-Understanding-Contemporary-Culture/dp/0804832951/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268802715&sr=8-1-spell Although you listed 義理 and 義務 as separate entries (or shades) of social relationships or ideals of Japanese, it is commonly stated that 義務 takes precedence in spoken Japanese for a sense of moral obligation because when ぎり is said in conversation without proper explanation, it will have a average person thinking that you are talking about a step-relation of some sort. I found this out when studying in Japan. My interpretation of 人情 is basically the obligations one has to another human being based on what we consider the basic human rights for all people. Other things found in Japanese pertaining to these things: 義理チョコ - chocolates given (usually) by girls to guys on valentine's day. The relationship between the two is usually one of close friendship, a colleague, or someone else that is close that is probably not a boyfriend or husband. Hmm, very interesting stuff. I'll definitely give the book a spin when I can get my hands on a copy. So when discussing owing someone a certain amount of something, it would gravitate more towards the concept of 義務, rather than just general obligation to repay a debt? Not really. It is because 義理 (ぎり) is pronounced exactly like the prefix for a step relation (like stepfather, stepmother, etc) of some sort, so to avoid confusion, usually a duty/obligation ends up being 義務 (ぎむ) when used in spoken conversation. I found this out when I tried bringing up the concept as ぎり and my Japanese friend was really confused about it until he told me 義務 was used more frequently to mean that in conversation. I think this also implies that perhaps the contemporary meaning of the word can mean either one, though I think that is not quite a true conclusion about it though.
I see. As someone who's been learning about Japan and the language of the country for a good while, would you think this is something students should be aware of during the initial phase of their studies?
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:37 pm
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Koiyuki IdiotbyDefault Koiyuki IdiotbyDefault For a interpretation of 義理 I would recommend a book I had in my Japanese Cultural Studies Class: The Japanese Mind. It explains that concept well. It can be found here on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Mind-Understanding-Contemporary-Culture/dp/0804832951/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268802715&sr=8-1-spell Although you listed 義理 and 義務 as separate entries (or shades) of social relationships or ideals of Japanese, it is commonly stated that 義務 takes precedence in spoken Japanese for a sense of moral obligation because when ぎり is said in conversation without proper explanation, it will have a average person thinking that you are talking about a step-relation of some sort. I found this out when studying in Japan. My interpretation of 人情 is basically the obligations one has to another human being based on what we consider the basic human rights for all people. Other things found in Japanese pertaining to these things: 義理チョコ - chocolates given (usually) by girls to guys on valentine's day. The relationship between the two is usually one of close friendship, a colleague, or someone else that is close that is probably not a boyfriend or husband. Hmm, very interesting stuff. I'll definitely give the book a spin when I can get my hands on a copy. So when discussing owing someone a certain amount of something, it would gravitate more towards the concept of 義務, rather than just general obligation to repay a debt? Not really. It is because 義理 (ぎり) is pronounced exactly like the prefix for a step relation (like stepfather, stepmother, etc) of some sort, so to avoid confusion, usually a duty/obligation ends up being 義務 (ぎむ) when used in spoken conversation. I found this out when I tried bringing up the concept as ぎり and my Japanese friend was really confused about it until he told me 義務 was used more frequently to mean that in conversation. I think this also implies that perhaps the contemporary meaning of the word can mean either one, though I think that is not quite a true conclusion about it though. I see. As someone who's been learning about Japan and the language of the country for a good while, would you think this is something students should be aware of during the initial phase of their studies?
I think this concept is important in understanding the gift-giving customs in Japanese as these are used when explaining them.
More articles I found explaining this more: http://zine375.eserver.org/zine1.html (Mentions giri)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etiquette_in_Japan (Not so much explaining using giri, but important in general in understanding the particular times of the year you can give gifts in)
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