New Arizona Law

[Fox Muse]

New York Times


I was born and raised in California, but i lived in Arizona for 4 and a half years, and i still have family there. In those years i began to realize how much a problem we have with illegal immigrants. This law is meant to help with a serious problem within Arizona. It doesn't not effect the whole US. So for those of you who are watching the results of this law being passed, what are your thoughts?
Fair, not fair? Do you think this violates the constitution? What about the protests and bans? Do you think people should be protesting this?  

[Ringlefinch]

Im not aware of the new laws being passed in Arizona but we have our own problems with emigration here in the UK. London in particular has been swamped with immigrants of which at least 30% are illegal.

We dont blame the immigrants so much as the government who are far to soft with there policies and have made the country very attractive with free health cover, income support, housing benefit, ect..ect..

Immigrants are even given free T.V. licenses were as the rest of us have to pay for them. The reason being that they claim watching television helps them learn the language!! LOL
They also get 80% of any tax they pay back when they leave the country.

I hold nothing against the immigrants themselves but Im struggling to hold my head above water and get hardly any help at all from my own country.  

[Stargazer Lily]

Illegal immigrants are given a lot of freebies here in the U.S., too - at taxpayer expense while we don't provide basic services to people who are born here and are barely making ends meet - no medical help, no housing help, no help with feeding their families, but we'll hand-out that same help to those who cross in illegally. scream There are legal ways to come in to the U.S. The discussion to just offer auto-citizenship to everyone that's here illegally right now to solve the immigration problem (Obama's bright idea) is a slap in the face to the numerous immigrants that have busted their asses for years to obtain that exact citizenship.

I work with a guy who spent 13 years obtaining said citizenship to the U.S. It was a struggle for this exceptionally bright & intelligent man, doing manual labor despite high degrees obtained at the universities in Mexico. Despite being overqualified for most of the jobs he can find, he supported his family w/o help. He does not complain about the hardship, rather he is very proud of his fortitude and patience working through the system so he and his family could be citizens in this country. I honor and respect his struggle and hearing him express how happy he is to be here - how much citizenship means to him. 3nodding  

[Arroree]

Yes we need immigration reform, yes we need to do something about the illegals, this law is NOT the way to handle it. This law is so very against the constitution its sickening. The law allows that if you so much as get pulled over for a broken taillight and you look like you might be hispanic they can demand to see your papers or proof of citizenship. They have already had problems with citizens being detained by the police and held until proof of citizenship could be brought in by family members *and as they were citizens their families had to bring in birth certificates etc* A drivers liscense or id card isnt good enough for proof of citizenship so whats a person to do? A trucker from CA was driving his route and was detained by immigration in AZ for over 12 hours while they waited for his wife to get off work and drive out there with his birth certificate and he was a legal citizen born and raised, not even hispanic.

Nobody likes to go the "its like the Nazi's" route but in this case yes it is like the Nazis. During Hitlers reign people had to carry papers stating they were german or jewish and if you were a german that didnt have his papers you were screwed. Do we really want our country going this route?

There are so many races in the US that look hispanic but arent that this law makes it scary to be them in that state. The majority of the Native Americans in the south look very hispanic and in most cases you cant tell which ones are which, so now they have the worry of dealing with this and having to prove their citizenship status in a country that was originaly theirs, sad.

As it stands there are many people and even whole towns petitioning for this to be taken to court for its unconstitutionality.  

[Fox Muse]

What kind of immigration reform would you suggest? Perhaps this law will be an effective deterrent against illegals.
While your saying its scary to live in Arizona for fear you might be detained because you might be mistaken for an illegal immigrant, how many of those protesters are actual citizens? How many of those people in those WHOLE TOWNS are citizens?
While i hope that we as Americans know the limits of how far a law like this can go, and no further to step into the area of Nazi- like behavior, the problem in Arizona is so bad that steps like this law were bound to happen.  

[ThisEmptySoul]

Stargazer Lily

The discussion to just offer auto-citizenship to everyone that's here illegally right now to solve the immigration problem (Obama's bright idea) is a slap in the face to the numerous immigrants that have busted their asses for years to obtain that exact citizenship.

Funny thing about that.... John McCain endorsed the very same and even introduced the bill to do so, hence why some labeled him "McAmnesty" back during the election. The bill didn't pass and not a whole lot of people were for it due to various reasons. One being that not a lot of people knew about it to begin with, and another being that Bush was for it. Bush and republicans being considered "the bad guys", no one wanted to go with whatever it was they were for.

If Obama is supporting it now, it makes you wonder if there really is much difference between the current administration and the previous one.

As far as the law in Arizona is concerned, I think it's a step in the wrong direction. If illegal immigration is that much of a problem, there are better solutions, such as not rewarding people for coming over illegally by giving them free schooling and food stamps. If they're getting hand-outs for coming in, of course they're going to come. What reason would there be -not- to come, especially since the border security isn't even allowed to use force to stop them?

If you take away their incentives, then they'll have no reason to be here. As much as people like to say that America is just this really great country of opportunity and that's why they come, some of these illegals couldn't care less about this country. All they want is freebies. I remember going to school with some obvious illegals and they would talk down on everyone and tout Mexican pride, saying how much more superior Mexico is to the United States. I always figured if they loved their country so much, they could just go back, but of course I was called racist for even suggesting such a thing stare {I'm actually half Hispanic, by the way... born and raised in the States. Never been to Mexico. I don't think my father has ever even been. None of my family even knows Spanish rofl }

There are protesters that are citizens. Just because those who are illegal protest it doesn't mean there isn't any good reason to protest it. It's a violation to the fourth and fifth amendments. Asking a person to prove their citizenship is a "guilty until proven innocent" approach.  

[Arroree]

Fox Muse

What kind of immigration reform would you suggest? Perhaps this law will be an effective deterrent against illegals.
While your saying its scary to live in Arizona for fear you might be detained because you might be mistaken for an illegal immigrant, how many of those protesters are actual citizens? How many of those people in those WHOLE TOWNS are citizens?
While i hope that we as Americans know the limits of how far a law like this can go, and no further to step into the area of Nazi- like behavior, the problem in Arizona is so bad that steps like this law were bound to happen.

I dont have all the answers, i dont presume to think i even have many of the answers, i just know that this law isn't it. Legalizing racial profiling and making it so that citizens have to carry around papers proving their citizenship is a huge step in the wrong direction.
Personaly i think we should go back to the way we were with immigration. It should never in any way take 13 years for someone to become a citizen, thats just ridiculous to me. I think as long as a person can pass a detailed background check they should be allowed to immigrate just as they used to be allowed, its not like we're hurting for the room in our country. The extra legal citizens working, earning money, paying taxes and spending their money in the communities would be a help to the economy.

The simple fact is that the US has enough square feet of land to fit every person in the world with an acre of their own. So to insist that so few immigrants can come legally and force them to jump through so many legal hoops and pay so much in fees is insane.

Lest we all forget what is still to this day what is written on the statue of liberty, what was once the call of our country to the world..
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"  

[ThisEmptySoul]

I do think it should be made easier to become a citizen, but keep in mind that not all these people coming in are even interested in becoming citizens. That's the kicker. People assume that because they're here, it's because they love the country and the opportunity it presents, but some are really just here for a free ride and would up and leave in a heartbeat if that was taken away. {Actually, they would protest "inequality" first, then eventually leave if people don't give in to their demands}.

Granted this is not the case for all of them, but it certainly isn't uncommon either. The way things currently work, it's actually easier to live in this country illegally than it is if you're a citizen.  

[Arroree]

ThisEmptySoul

I do think it should be made easier to become a citizen, but keep in mind that not all these people coming in are even interested in becoming citizens. That's the kicker. People assume that because they're here, it's because they love the country and the opportunity it presents, but some are really just here for a free ride and would up and leave in a heartbeat if that was taken away. {Actually, they would protest "inequality" first, then eventually leave if people don't give in to their demands}.

Granted this is not the case for all of them, but it certainly isn't uncommon either. The way things currently work, it's actually easier to live in this country illegally than it is if you're a citizen.

Which is one of the reasons why letting them become citizens helps reduce that problem. Once they are citizens they are bound by all the same laws and regulations and taxes as the rest of us. They will face the same welfare limits, foodstamp quotas, etc as everyone else and the free ride will end. This will effectively weed out many of the ones that dont actually want to be a citizen.

The first step in my opinion is to grant instant citizenship to anyone whos parents brought them over as children and were raised here. Its not their fault they were brought here illegaly, this is the only country they know and to deport them is cruelty at the least, horrific at the most. Then work on letting them help their parents become citizens easily. Anyone thats lived and worked here for more than 5 years *granted that theyve worked that whole time not tried to illegally live off the system* should be granted citizenship as they have effectively shown that they do in fact want to be a citizen.

As it is many of the ones that are only here for a free ride are already leaving. The studies are showing that several million have actually LEFT the country in the last 2 years instead of coming in. Numbers of illegals coming into the country have dwindled greatly before this law was even considered.

If they really want to catch illegals what they need to do is investigate every worker in the state at every business. This way they will catch the illegals of every race not just those that look hispanic.  

[ThisEmptySoul]

While I get the reasoning behind instant citizenship to children raised here, there's also another problem created by this. It's what has been dubbed "anchor babies". Obviously you can't deport the parents and leave the child here all alone if they are not old enough to live by themselves and people do not wish to send a child back to a country they have never even known, so in an attempt to "play the system", some will {and have} come here already pregnant or get pregnant soon after coming over for the sole purpose of avoiding deportation.

As for the just granting people citizenship, I'm not sure if a new bill has been drafted yet, but at least in the old one that McCain introduced, it was full amnesty. What this means is, even if the person was a criminal, not only in their country of origin but also have committed crimes while in this country, they were granted complete amnesty and just allowed to wander free as a normal citizen with nothing on their record. These people would not be "weeded out" by being granted citizenship.  

[Arroree]

ThisEmptySoul

While I get the reasoning behind instant citizenship to children raised here, there's also another problem created by this. It's what has been dubbed "anchor babies". Obviously you can't deport the parents and leave the child here all alone if they are not old enough to live by themselves and people do not wish to send a child back to a country they have never even known, so in an attempt to "play the system", some will {and have} come here already pregnant or get pregnant soon after coming over for the sole purpose of avoiding deportation.

As for the just granting people citizenship, I'm not sure if a new bill has been drafted yet, but at least in the old one that McCain introduced, it was full amnesty. What this means is, even if the person was a criminal, not only in their country of origin but also have committed crimes while in this country, they were granted complete amnesty and just allowed to wander free as a normal citizen with nothing on their record. These people would not be "weeded out" by being granted citizenship.

Now see i dont support full amnesty for all criminals. If it was a crime such as stealing to feed your family, sure, give them amnesty and a chance at a life where they dont have to steal to feed their kids. Violent crimes and drug crimes, no way, send them back.

Im personally descended from an illegal immigrant, only he was from Portugal. My great grandfather came over using his brothers papers *his brother ran away the day he was supposed to board the ship* and our family was started here under that name and papers. He then went on to buy land and spent the rest of his life running his farm and supporting his family while paying taxes and doing right by this country. Not all illegal immigrants are horrible criminals or even bad people at all, the majority are just people trying to survive any way they can and their chances of survival are better here than in their home country. Sadly the criminals that come over illegaly and those looking for a free handout make all the rest look bad and make it that much harder for the good ones to be accepted. *sigh*  

[Fox Muse]

I do not 100% justify amnesty or legalizing people just because they had kids here. Just because you can pop out a few kids doesn't give you the right to claim citizenship. Honestly if you came here had a kid, and are illegal, your kid should be considered illegal too. That way this anchor baby idea stops.
What bothers me the most, is how many of them don't even try to pass as legal. They flaunt the fact they they are here "fresh off the boat". The refuse to learn the language, they stay in racial communities , they see all Americans as evil people, out to get them. It seems like they have kids for the sole purpose to translate for them. And we are suppose to have sympathy because they are coming from some poor third world country to the land of milk and honey? When should they start caring about their impact on our Economy? How much welfare are we gonna pay to those that come here expecting free hand outs?

I don't like getting passed up for jobs because i don't speak Spanish. I dont like the fact that they come into my store and get mad at me because they cant convey what they want, in my language. i don't like the fact that even the ones that get caught and deported end up back here in only a matter of weeks. I don't like the fact that our prison system is clogged with their criminals, living the good life with free TV and 3 meals a day, when there are families here that struggle to even have 1 meal a day and clothes on their backs. i don't like a lot of things wrong with our system. However i do not think that we should be worrying about tiptoeing around these people for fear that we might violate one of their rights. The are not citizens, and are not subject to the constitution. What i don't understand the most is, how can they be here protesting our laws and claiming that we are violating their rights, attempting to use our own legal system against us... Shouldn't they be trying to make things better in their own country? Protest corruption there, and if enough people stood together and made it better, they wouldn't be so pressured to come here.  

[ThisEmptySoul]

That's the part about this you are not getting, Fox Muse. It is not just illegal immigrants who are going to be checked for IDs. It is citizens. Citizens of this country who have done absolutely nothing wrong will be stopped and detained until they can prove they are in fact a citizen. That's a violation of their rights as a citizen.  

[Arroree]

ThisEmptySoul

That's the part about this you are not getting, Fox Muse. It is not just illegal immigrants who are going to be checked for IDs. It is citizens. Citizens of this country who have done absolutely nothing wrong will be stopped and detained until they can prove they are in fact a citizen. That's a violation of their rights as a citizen.

Exactly

PS: Thats certainly an interesting look for your avi eek lol  

[ThisEmptySoul]

I know cool *flex*

I also wanted to point out that our freedoms aren't granted to us as citizens by The Bill of Rights. The purpose of the Bill of Rights was not to grant us these things, but rather to put in writing that these are unalienable rights that the government of the United States of America are never to infringe upon.... although it does anyway...

In other words, regardless of whether they are citizens, they still have rights. While I do not like how the influx of illegal immigrants causes problems with our economy, nor the snooty attitude and insults I have received from a few of them, they are still people.