4e Discussion: Daily Powers

[Rain Yupa]

I've been recently playing 4e for realz IRL (and I <3 it), though there's something I've seen be a problem. Namely, some of our inabilities to hit with encounter powers, or worse yet, our dailies. This has ESPECIALLY gotten under the cleric player's skin, as he fails to do so regularly.

It got me thinking about a possible house rule concerning the matter, and I want your opinions.

There's three versions I've come up with, each has their own balancing factors added in (some more lenient than others).

Here's the premise:

At the end of a short rest (and only once before the next encounter), you can roll to recharge daily powers. This roll is on a d6, modified by the number of action points you have. This is done in three possible ways.

1.) Roll a d6 for each expended daily power. On a 6+, that power recharges. Add +1 to each roll for the number of unused action points you have.
Pros/Cons: The opportunity for rapid daily power regrowth is high, which is a boon to the players and a problem for the DM. Lucky rolls can restore ALL of a person's dailies, or alternatively, if someone banks their APs long enough, they can almost guarantee to turn their daily powers into encounter powers. Even if a "always fails on a 1" rule is attached.

2.) Roll a d6 for each expended daily power. On a 7+, that power recharges. Add +1 to each roll for the number of unused action points you have.
Pros/Cons: Recharging dailies is no longer possible WITHOUT action points, so if players use them regularly, they might not get the chance to recharge until every other battle. However, this might also cause them to hesitate on using action points in the first place, feeling that they MUST bank them. Basically, the "role" of daily powers and action points are almost reversed.

3.) Roll a d6. On a 6+, one daily power of the player's choice recharges. Add +1 to each roll for the number of unused action points you have.
Pros/Cons: This helps manage daily recharging, so it doesn't overpower the players. A lucky roll will always succeed, and with enough action points banked, it only guarantees "one daily power per encounter", which isn't nearly AS broken, especially since at higher levels, that's almost how it turns out anyways. The con arrives at poor rolling: Someone can feel more free to use their daily early, and get constantly frustrated by a string of low d6 rolls denying them. In other words, it might not be recharge ENOUGH.

Another alteration I considered while writing this post, is that a flat bonus of +1 would apply, as long as the player had AT LEAST one action point in reserve (no longer +1 per). That would make option 2 a bit trickier, at it would also encourage players to still use action points as they accumulate more.

As always, AP management becomes trickier though at Paragon tier due to Paragon Paths, and/or having warlords in the party, as it becomes more inviting to spend them.

Yet another possibility that occurred to me is, during a short rest, spend a healing surge to recharge a daily. While seemingly broken at first, it would force a party to blow through TOO MANY resources early if they were careless, leaving them surgeless only several encounters in.

What is everyone's thoughts on the matter? Or, are there any house rules you've implemented that addresses this issue in a different way?

Searching online, I've seen some suggestions on Daily recharging, but none of the ones I've seen involve chance (such as recharge 1 daily after a short rest, which I think is TOO powerful).  

[NayrVentess]

To be honest Rain, I don't think daily powers should recharge, that's why they are called daily powers. All of them (I believe) have an a straight effect whether you hit or miss, or an effect on a miss, or are reliable. So they are already designed that even if you roll bad, you still do something. You say your Cleric always seems to miss with them; sometimes the dice just don't treat you right. Somehow, in my IRL campaign, our Paladin is f***ing awful at saving throws. Seriously, one time he spent 7 rounds stunned because he kept failing them. That's sometimes just how the game goes, for no other reason than bad luck. Although perhaps the Cleric in question doesn't have the optimal stats/equipment? I find that some of the Monsters in the MM1 and 2 can be a little harsh if a player didn't start with a 17+ in their priority stat, and don't have the best magical weapon etc. A couple of my players have taken the weapon feat to give them a + to attack rolls, partly because some Monsters are tough to hit. In that case, perhaps the DM in your game just needs to pick monsters with the Cleric in mind, or adjust some of the slightly broken creatures in the earlier 4th Ed books.

Although, if you want my opinion on your options, the third one seems the best, when coupled with the flat bonus of +1 no matter how many action points you have. That makes it hard to recharge of course, although if a DM implemented even this option, the players should be grateful for any chance to use a daily power more than once per day. I also think, as you said, that many of your options would perhaps result in a negative impact on action point usage, or not using them at all. Some of the best rounds I've seen my players do, or have done myself, involve action points, and it would be a shame for players to not want to use them.

Thats my two cents anyway.  

[Rain Yupa]

Oh, its by no means something I will necessarily implement. I'm just gauging to see if anyone else had any bright ideas, their own experiences concerning the matter, or as you put it, just their own two cents.

Btw, its not my game to run, but I might take over at the summer's end, which is why I thought I'd start the conversation now.

And yes, I realize that the game is designed for dailies to be JUST that. This is just my desire to throw a bone to those players who can't roll above a 5 on a daily attack roll to save their lives. sweatdrop

EDIT: We all have above-average stats, as per rolling for it then the DM adjusting any scores that came out pathetic. Such as my character that didn't roll above a 14 for anything, pre-adjustment.  

[SporkMaster5000]

I think option three, probably with only a flat +1 bonus from APs is the best. I can see the point if someone just gets royally boned on daily rolls, but they are built to come out being about equal to a a/w or weak encounter when you get half damage on a miss, and effect lines or non-damage miss effects are unavoidable bad things, so the bone has already been thrown if you suck at rolling.

I can appreciate trying to help out if someone really just can't catch a break, but don't offer up too much in exchange, and consider revoking it if you get to late paragon or epic, where there are abilities and powers to let players recoup powers anyway.

If your players have or get a real handle on the system, the surges for dailies idea isn't terrible. If they can already balance their resources giving them a new way to expend said resources shouldn't run them into the ground. But if you've only recently started with 4e, I wouldn't suggest it, to the current DM or for your own use.  

[Psychofish]

I have a weird stance on dailies, due to my love/hate thing with them. In the majority of games, I tend to feel the need to conserve MP/spells/consumable items/anything that gets used up, for fear that I'll need it more later and will have wasted it... which at times becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. In 4e it at least balances well for AP since you get one back every other encounter, and for surges, since I am also paranoid of getting lucky shotted and taken out right off if I leave myself low on health.

Despite how amazing dailies are, though, I think on half my characters I'd readily trade them in for extra encounter powers/uses of an encounter power.

So with my bias's out in the open, I'm strongly supporting, at DM discretion, either the third roll on the static +1 bonus or just using dailies as they already exist.

I'm going to be flat out honest in that I like to tactical and improvisational planning- I often try and set myself up to be able to go into things blind and play it by ear to establish a good plan of action mid fight- so normally I would be strongly in favor of the spending surges option. However, I honestly CANNOT support it just for the fact that party and stat balance would be thrown for a royal loop.

Just consider how rewarding constitution would suddenly be in that light. It gives you HP and potential healing, is a secondary stat for a lot of classes, AND can nab you repeated daily use. I know I normally love playing defenders, but even I can't stand behind how much of an advantage it'd throw them at. Suddenly, wardens would be going into a guardian form every single encounter, maybe even in games like DCE- and simply have enough surges to tank it. Meanwhile, you've got some striker and controller classes left to stress over how they might not have enough surges for the day to begin with, and half your players asking if they can switch to the primal classes, or restat themselves as constitution-secondary versions of their class.

I do like the idea of giving players systems to buy things back, as long as you can trust your players not to start exploiting on it, but surges are not the way to go.  

[Saccharine Venom]

Any sort of buff to players to increase hit chance on Enc/Dailies would be bad, imo. Instead, look into a few other things.

Are the players investing in to hit? Are they keeping Weapons/Implements up to date when possible. Have they taken any feat support to boost to-hit? Are they making use of CA(which is rather easy to get with a fairly diverse group)? Are the making good use of power bonuses to-hit, when granted(something many clerics are profecient at)? Are they making use of targeting NAD's, if applicable? One other thing, does the DM regularly use high level monsters? If so, the party needs to focus on to-hit moreso than the average character.

If that's all been considered, and it's a party wide probem, many groups give Expertise as free feat as a house rule, as it is considered a flavourless necessity. It doesn't appear thegroup is big on min-maxing, and if they play like you, Rain, they enjoy a fair deal of flavour in their characters.  

[Rain Yupa]

I should have also specified that this might not necessarily be something for my RL game, but something I implemented in some or all of my games. Cause I have an extremely sensitive conscience and I feel bad when players blow their dailies. Not so much when they botch an Action Point attack, cause they get more of those opportunities later.

Fish, you make a good point about how that would benefit the Con-heavy players, especially Defenders (and Warlocks). So Surges DEFINITELY aren't a way to go. Although I'm just throwing things out there and seeing what people think about it. By me merely offering it up and having people comment on it, it's doing its job.

Merc, it's more of a matter of luck than anything. The Cleric is pegging all his at-will attacks. I think I might have seen him miss once. Turn Undead, Healing Strike, whatever he has for the daily... the dice gods just turn their gaze away when he does anything more than an at-will. Four games in, and he JUST hit with his level 1 encounter power for the first time (we hit 4th level Monday). All the bonuses in the world can't help if you just don't roll high (as myself, Dragow, Spork, and Oshi can attest to better than anyone, I think. Sometimes Fish too, when he's gunning for my crown).

And no, we're not min-maxers. Sometimes min-mediumers, but that's it. But we still know how to make characters. The Cleric has high Wis, Cha, and decent Str (remember, its from dice roll not stat buy). The only reason I've been hitting more than I should is 1.) Fighter Weapon Talent, 2.) Elven Accuracy, and 3.) Sure Strike.  

[Saccharine Venom]

Maybe he should invest in more miss effect powers? Clerics are by far my favorite class but one can't really change the luck factor. Stacking up on to-hit simply minimizes it.  

[JinKazamaru]

Seems Rain needs to switch out for some reliables next level up he gets hahaha if clerics get many of those... trying to hit with a cleric... being a leader and all shouldn't be a big deal... heals and buffs are their thing... after all  

[Wrong Angles]

@ Yupa: Your character is built for hitting, then. Ideally, a good Defender never really misses, y'know? I've seen dailies whiff, but I think the high-risk, high-reward nature of those powers would be a bit less enhanced by letting dailies have a bit of a boost. They're supposed to be used sparingly, and using them unwisely is sometimes punished with a whiff. You guys are doing everything you can to make sure they hit, right? Buffs, debuffs, giving the party a round to assist in any way possible to make sure the Daily hits? Not to downplay the terrible luck or anything, or act like I know more than you do. It's just easier to come to a decision when I have more data, y'know?  

[joe-dude667]

Psychofish

In the majority of games, I tend to feel the need to conserve MP/spells/consumable items/anything that gets used up, for fear that I'll need it more later and will have wasted it...

The ol' "sitting on a nuclear stockpile to shame North Korea and flicking peas at a giant robot crab on the off-chance there's a bigger giant robot crab behind it" philosophy. We've all been there. =P  

[Rain Yupa]

Well, as of last game (we had reached 4th level), the cleric took Versatile expertise as his feat. In addition to his Cha and Str I think both going up to even numbers, AND the even level boost, he effectively got +3 for all his attacks. It helped tremendously. :3

I have no such problems hitting with my character. I'm an elf. That's what we do cool  

[Lord of the Vine]

The thing about daily powers are that even if you miss, they still have an effect, which differ from encounter powers. To go one further, many dailies have the Reliable keyword, which means if you miss, you do not expend the daily.

The houserule you are talking about would only give the players a +1 bonus to the d6 roll, since 4e only utilizes one action point.

The regular rules dictate that players get their daily abilities back after an extended rest (one that lasts more than 8 hours in-game time). The only other way around this is to use the Fantastic Recuperation ritual, which takes a huge chunk of your gold away.

To me, that seems pretty fair, though in most of my games we take an extended rest once per session.

In short, dailies are the money-makers for your heroes, and you should use them wisely.  

[Rain Yupa]

Are there that many Reliable powers that aren't martial? I didn't think there was. Any, that is.

And I can see if you houseruled the extended rest rules, that that would work. Generally though, it's hard for most games that are high combat to recuperate that quickly (12 hours in between each 6 hour rest). Playing through a published adventure, most of it is straight dungeon. Yes, we could hunker down and barricade ourselves in and rest, but then we need to spend the next 12 hours without running out of surges and making our lone daily powers last until that period is up.

Constant low rolls on non-reliable daily powers is generally a downer. Hence, my concern.

But as I said in my last post, boosts in accuracy has helped the player tremendously.

Using daily powers "wisely" really is bad advice, however. Saving your daily power for the time you need it most, or the most climatic battle of the encounter, and blowing your roll each time has little to do with wisdom. The whole intention of this discussion is to 1.) Assist players who are a tad unlucky, and 2.) Encourage players to use their daily powers more, knowing that they might have the opportunity to get them back. More the first than the second.

But this is just a discussion thread, to see if anyone had any clever ideas or unique houserules that the rest of us might not have considered.  

[Adriana_Manya]

What we do in the 4e games I'm playing in is to let those that miss due to dice (curse you natural 1-2's) to reroll once. Or until you actually hit. I have a friend whose terrible at rolling dice, so he likes that idea a lot. sweatdrop