[S] Breeding Limits

[derivative]

I've noticed a lot of people are unhappy with how things stand, breeding-wise, due to no fault of the colorists or the people entering. When it comes down to it, it's all up to the dice, and while it might seem unfair to all of us that the "same few people" win over and over again, you can't fault the dice, right? I know there's been a lot of attempts to adjust the current methods we have for breeding, but none of them have really stuck. This is something that's been bouncing around in my head for a little bit, and I thought I'd pop it in here and see if anyone had anything they could contribute, or if it even seemed like a good idea. =)

I know no one wants to cut down the amount couples we can enter right away, since that would take away opportunities for people who are presently entering pairs if, for example, we all sliced it down to only one entry in breedings per month, baseline. That's not cool, so it's not something we want to do. We also don't want to do a maximum "You can only get thismany breedings a year!" for the very same reason. It's not your fault if your only pairs are with someone who has a huge backlog of couples, right?

What I've been thinking of... is a bit of an overhaul, but not... immediately noticeable. I'm going to outline what I've pondered and try to make it make sense, lol.

Say we have a new method starting in January. Everyone gets to enter two pairs into breedings like usual, cool! We're all cool, everyone who already has agreements/already knows they're entering couples is still good to enter.

I'm just going to use myself as an example because it's easiest. I win a breeding in January. WOO! For the rest of the month, I can only enter with one couple because I've won a breeding. That's standard, and in the rules now.

February rolls around. I'm back to entering two couples. Then I win again! Good god, I've got a lot of luck. For the rest of February, I can only enter one couple, still under present rules. I've won with two couples now, so we'll say my breeding slate from the beginning of the year is wiped clean -- any couples I enter now are new agreements, new opportunities.

Now, here is where my revision idea comes in -- from February onward, for the rest of the year, I can only enter one couple into every breeding. Starting March, instead of defaulting to two couples, I'm automatically at one. This isn't depriving anyone of a chance they would have had otherwise, because prior to my two pairs winning, the person I'm now trying for my breeding with is one of the two agreements I already had running -- see? I can't start trying for a new couple until this one wins, or I can trade this one out for a new one, but it's not depriving anyone that I was currently entering with because they are my default breeding pair for next month. Or they're not, that's up to everyone, but the next pair of mine in line that was already waiting is just still waiting -- the owner of the other Soquili was aware they would be waiting as they were third in line for my breeding rotation, see? So it's not depriving them of a breeding they were actively seeking, it just means it's a little longer in the rotation.

I'm not banned from breedings by any means, but because I've won two breedings so far this year, my chances for the rest of the year are slimmed down -- and any partners that I would have made more agreements with will have to wait until I win my third breeding slot.

Keeping my example simple, we'll say I get really freaking lucky and I win again in March. Since I could only enter one couple in March, I'm now maxed out for the month. Starting in April, I can enter another couple, but my limit is now one couple per month for the rest of the year, because I've been blessed with several breedings.

This seems kind of drastic, right? You're thinking WHOA, so I win in January and February and then it's one couple ALL THE WAY until next January? But realistically, how many of us win breedings back to back? It's much more likely that I would win a breeding in January, go back to entering two couples in February, and then not land my next breeding until like... June. That's entering two couples again, regularly, until June, and then for the rest of the year just one couple a month.

It's not a punishment and it's not trying to deprive people; rather, it's adjusting to the fact that people are winning multiple breedings a year and adjusting the pool of participants so that those who have not yet been lucky enough to win two breedings this year can still enter two couples, while those people who have already won at least two breedings this year can only enter one couple into breedings.

I would like to emphasize that this is by no means a breeding cap. Theoretically, you could win 13 breedings a year on this method -- max out in January, and then from February on "max out" with one couple a month. But we all know that no one's luck is good enough to win every month. However, if we can all agree to trim back a little and only enter one pair a month after we win two breedings a year, it'll give everyone else who hasn't been that lucky double our odds. It seems fair to me, but I want everyone else's thoughts, too.

Don't be afraid to suggest and pick apart my idea, but please be polite about it. =) After you vote, please comment to say why you voted that way! I'm interested to know. <3  

[FitzRoyal]

I like this idea a lot *thumbs up*...one problem I notice off the bat is that it would require some extra work making a list of who has won twice in the year and are holding true to the one couple rule afterwords...but I don't think it would make that much more work for the staff...a volunteer could probably even regulate it.  

[derivative]

I was thinking a list could be kept in the Master CC thread, maybe? We list couples who have maxed out for the month, but maybe just take a section of the post and reserve it for "People who have had at least two breedings this year" and add to it as the year progresses.

As long as at the end of the month it was tallied (preferably at the end of every breeding, I'd think?) it shouldn't get too far behind. I like to think everyone would be honest enough to stick to one couple a month after you've won two so far for the year, though. =oa I do understand a list would need to be in place, though.  

[FitzRoyal]

Agreed. The CC would be a good place to keep it, especially for quick referencing. After the breeding is concluded the staff member can just go add the winners to the list. ^_^

...as for how honest people would be with only entering one couple, that can be another 'If you are caught, you are disqualified' type of deal.

I thinks a good idea especially with the new year not too far away.  

[samus x]

the reason for the 2 pairs per month. it is because so many people have TONS of pairs. like myself i have actually 6 or more pairs waiting on me to win a slot for them and its hard to land a slot as is. it actually took me 6 months to win a breeding from my last breeding win. not everyone has massive luck but some do get it.

in the beginning the shop use to only allow one pair for a person every month but they changed it to 2 because it became obvious very quickly the shop is so big and that people had so many pairs that it could take years for someone to get to a couple if they have majorly crappy luck. 1 pair a month just doesn't seem right even if you gave the person 2 pairs til they won both at whatever point they somehow manage it. it really honestly is rare someone wins with 2 in a month. its more likely someone wins one every other month or every few months than win with both. i personally have only one 2 in a month maybe twice in the past 3 or 4 years?

with the MCCL(which should become more used since we have more colorist) i think it helps balance the fact there are those Major lucky in the raffles. because i believe when colorist look at the MCCL they look at the lowluck status of the pair, how many breedings the owner has been winning recently since if they have gotten their 2 that month they cant get get picked in the MCCL, along with seeing as its colorist choice the looks of the pair.

plus colorist do try to give more chances to those who do get crappy luck and don't seem to win but there is only so much they can do. which its sad to say not everyone can win their breeding asap. hell it took me 6 months from my last raffle win to actually win in a raffle.  

[derivative]

Yeah, I know the reason we are allowed to enter two is because there are so many couples... but I also know that with so many couples, people are really dissatisfied with how things are run right now. This wouldn't immediately change how things are run at all, but rather once you've received two breedings a year -- really hard to do, I have a fair few pairs myself that are waiting and I've only won two breedings myself this year! -- you are simply limited to entering one pair from then on for a reduced chance.

It kind of sucks, yeah, because your chances are going down. But I think that your chances being reduced would be softened by the fact that you've already won two breedings so far this year -- whereas a lot of people only win one a year, or none at all, depending on how the dice fancy them.

I'm not disagreeing at all that it would suck to have to enter only one pair, because I have a lot of couples I want to enter myself. A lot. If this rule was in place? I'd only have one couple in raffles right now, and I'd still have about five or six couples waiting on me to enter slots. But considering I've already gotten two breedings this year, I think I would be a little more okay with it.

It's almost like an owner cool down, except not really. Because you don't have to sit out of breedings unless you max out your two couples in the same month, and even if you do max out, your partners would all be waiting anyway for the next slot. If I win my two breedings early in the year and then I'm reduced to one pair, say someone is waiting on my pair to win to enter raffles. But because I only have one chance, along with everyone else who's won two breedings, there are more opportunities to win. Maybe one of their other partners will snag a slot and they can enter a different couple then.

It's just trying to find a new sort of balance without tearing apart any pairs that are entering now, but trying to work toward regulating things a little bit without capping breedings or forcing people to sit out. And also without just leaving things as they are, since people seem to be unhappy with that.

This method really wouldn't hurt anyone who has been trying actively and waiting a long time (low luck!) or the people who don't have massive luck -- if you've only won one breeding so far this year, you're good to enter two couples until you win that second one! And if you happen to win one breeding in say, January, and then two breedings in February, well, lucky duck! But now you've won two or more breedings this year, so you're down to entering one couple from March onward.  

[samus x]

^^;; i still have to disagree with making a 'owner cool down' for anyone who happens to win 2 slots in whatever month they happen to win it. because your not just cooling down 1 person, your going to hinder those who are waiting on them to get to their couple they have with them. because that 1 person may be hella lucky but that person sitting on sidelines waiting for them to get to their couple might be someone not so luck with landing breedings.

with breedings its not just ONE person winning its actually 2 people who win. unless of course the one person happens to solely own the couple.  

[derivative]

I totally understand, and it's definitely your right to disagree! =) I'm just saying, those people waiting were already waiting -- they're either going to make other plans with their breeding cycles (trying for other pairs while they wait for me to win a slot, for example) or they are going to patiently wait for me to win my two slots and shuffle the couple in.

It really sucks to be the person with one Soquili who is waiting for their breeding partner to win a slot so that they can try, but the majority of us have one or more couples waiting on the back burner to try for breedings. And it does take a long time, a really long time. But if say Logue knows she's waiting for me to win with my two couples, she'll probably be actively trying with two other couples of her own -- not just sitting back waiting for me.

In the long run, yes, if you win more than two breedings a year it will take you longer to win more breedings. But if you are lucky enough to win two breedings in a year, you've moved the queue up for the people who are in your backlog, so they're steps closers to having an active couple trying with you. In the meantime, they can try with other couples (if they have them) or they can wait, or possibly discuss with you hey, is it at all possible for your one-couple-a-month from now on to be your couple with me since I only have this one Soq?

I hope I'm coming across clear here and not just muddling things further. It would a longer wait for you and all the people in your backlog -- but they were in your backlog, just like you're in someone else's breeding backlog. We all understand that when we're in a backlog, we're going to wait, so if we go by this method, which will sliiiightly slim down entries if people happen to be lucky enough to get two breedings, other people's backlogs will start to disappear! And we'll have a bigger variety of winners, hopefully, given that people who have been very lucky so far will have reduced chances to be quite as lucky for the rest of the year.

And yep, I know it's two people who win a breeding unless it's a self pair. xD That's why the limit would be on the owner's breeding wins, not the pair -- if I win two breedings, one with Logue and one with you, I'm the one who can only enter one pair from now on, not you or Logue. So it's not limiting your chances because I happened to win two, it's limiting mine -- you can still enter two pairs, Logue can still enter two pairs, it's just me that's been cut back.  

[Nyx Queen of Darkness]

I agree with Samus on this one.

My other thing is, rules are good. But when you try to make a rule for every eventuality for breedings to limit people you're really just getting a lot of headache. Too many rules about how you can enter this month, and then this month, but not this month...It gets old, and I think it would lose it's fun.


Plus, what about people who have 2 pairs who are low-luck. They've been trying for say 2 years to get a slot, and because the list is so short, they win them back to back (say January and February). So they're only allowed to enter one pair for the rest of the year because they had 2 of 10 on a list they worked their bum off for? So all that trying, and couples they've had waiting for years and they can't give but one a try not even to garner up points for low-luck in another two years?

It's the same thing really, I mean first it would start off as 2 breedings, then only one pair a year for the rest of the year. Then you'd not be able to breed but three times....then two. When you start limiting things too much, there are always some people who want to limit them more.

Sorry, I'm just not a fan of limiting things that work relatively well since supply will never be able to meet demand here.  

[derivative]

It definitely sucks to get to Low Luck with two pairs, but sometimes, that's just the only way you win them! Gaspard and Azn, a pair of mine, were at try 26 I believe when they won? And Einarr and Mixcat, another pair of mine I'm working on right now, are presently at try 26 or 27. So I understand the frustration of waiting a long time for a breeding... but this method, I think, would help a little bit to reduce the amount of Low Luck all around.

Since all active pairs starting out would be our present active ones, any who are LL would still be entered as LL and would hopefully win soon. And yeah, it sucks to think of only entering one couple, but if someone who's already won two breedings (like me!) can only enter one couple from now on, that's one couple of mine out of the lists, and a slightly higher chance for someone else's couple to get chosen.

This part of your post confused me:

Nyx Queen of Darkness

It's the same thing really, I mean first it would start off as 2 breedings, then only one pair a year for the rest of the year. Then you'd not be able to breed but three times....then two. When you start limiting things too much, there are always some people who want to limit them more.

There's definitely no limit in this method saying you'd only get to breed three times? It's saying that after you win your first two breedings, whenever that happens, your new monthly quota is one. So if you win your third breeding, awesome! Enter a new couple next month, as your monthly quota is still one. And if you win again, cool! Enter a new couple next month. There'd be no cap on how many breedings you could personally win except for the thirteen possible I mentioned in the intro post, and there is no way no one's going to win thirteen breedings in this shop in one year. xD  

[samus x]

actually if you limit someone down to one after they won their 2 your actually going to make their backlog harder to make disappear because going down to 1 will make it a lot harder to win a slot against everyone who has their 2 in. you said it yourself most everyone has at lest 1 or a lot more that 1 pair. and when you limit one person you really are limiting the other person's choice of who they enter when they probably really want that pair entered in because they been waiting for whatever length of time.

basically it comes down to supply and demand. there isn't ever going to be enough colorists to pump out enough breedings for everyone in the shop. they try their best to give EVERYONE a chance to get that slot.

heck this month alone like 20 pairs got a slot and not all of them were won by people that won the month before. and maybe10 or so were lowluck wins too. and thats without colorist taking from MCCL which i beleive colorist will start using it again.

and i can tell you right now there is not as much lowluck to how many there is that aren't low luck. there might be maybe 12 or so couples out of over 100+ couples that are lowluck that are entered into raffles. and that is because they do lowluck slots to give those which crap luck a better chance.  

[Nyx Queen of Darkness]

Brosuke: Oh sorry! That part of my post was meaning that I'm not in favour of limiting things that are already limited. I just see it as opening a door to a new problem. What I mean is that breedings are already limited, by limiting them again to make something more fair you're opening the door to have this idea revisited again in a short time so that your breedings can be limited further. There is SO much demand, the supply is NEVER going to be great enough. And the vast majority are not going to win no matter what's done.

What I mean is that the shop is so large that by limiting it how you are saying, it's not going to make as much of a dent as one might think. With new Soq being made each day, and lots of newbies getting some it's not going to cut that many people out except for those people who are waiting to try with your pair and to open the door for there to be more reasons to limit something.

I just don't see how, with the amount of people there are here, that we can really make the breeding chances that much better.

And I've never won, never had a basket. But I'm wary of imposing new limits, because these seem more than fair. I'm just afraid of everything becoming so mathematical/so many rules that we are going to drive newbies away instead of welcoming them in. Because they're confused. And with good reason. I don't even understand it all myself sometimes.


Edit: Sorry if that was a bit repetitive, it's 4 AM LOL  

[Syaoran-Puu]

I agree with Samus.

Plus you have to take into consideration that someone may not get a single breeding one year, terrible luck, then suddenly the following year they win say three or four... is it fair to penalise them because they had no luck before and now they have got some luck?

You also have to consider that MORE and MORE pets are being made, making more and more couples in the future, more newbies and oldbies alike trying to get slots and frankly not enough slots to to fulfil them all. The reason we have LL is to aid with getting those who have been waiting patiently a chance at actually getting their long desired couples breedings.

Another thing to consider is that not all breedings are done via raffles they are CCed also, and CCed couples are those that steal the interest of colourists... if we start limiting breeding entries eventually we will also have to cap the CC more... which just seems unfair to colourists who want to find some inspiration.

*shrug* Just me 10 pence worth.  

[derivative]

@ Samus: Yes, it will make my backlog harder to get rid of, but at the same time, that backlog of mine is a little bit smaller because I've already won two breedings. When I was referring to help shrink backlog, I mean others' backlogs -- if I win two breedings and am able to bump one couple up out of five waiting, I still have four in backlog, but other people trying have a very slightly larger chance of winning, also giving them the opportunity to bump their backlog up a little bit.

In the end, as you said, people very rarely win two breedings a month. It's also pretty rare to get two breedings a year, from what I've seen -- I know I've entered every raffle I'm eligible for and have only won two this year, and that's with entering two couples each month and a mixer where applicable. So this modification? Would not have that much of an impact. It would impact the people who have already won two breedings a year, which generally takes a long time, and yeah, their backlog would shrink a little slower, but given the demand for breedings, most of us already are waiting a long time.

I do not deny that this would make it take longer to shrink individual backlogs if you're one of the lucky people to get two or more breedings a year. It definitely will. It sucks, too, but it seems fair to me because as an owner, you have won two breedings that year. Your backlog has been a backlog and will be a backlog until you win, but if I get those two breedings early in the year? I'm luckier than most owners. So I'm okay with entering only one couple and having my backlog shrink a little slower because I have already gotten two breedings! In a shop this big! With so many people entering.

Sometimes doing things in the interest of everyone as a whole sucks for the individual. It does. I just think that this idea would be a little bit better "big picture" even if it sucks a little bit on the individual level. But even then, it isn't that bad on an individual basis, because the new monthly quota would only come into effect once you've won two breeding that year. Two breedings that year. That's hard to do! There are a lot of people who want breedings, and people are upset that "the same people" keep winning, well... this would make sure those "same people," whoever they are, can still enter, their chances would just be a little reduced not because of who they are, but because of how many wins they've had that year.

Also, I recognize that the open list is much bigger than the low luck list. xD That was never part of my argument. I only brought low luck in because Nyx brought it up, using the scenario that you happen to have two low luck couples and they win at the same time/close to one another.

I don't think saying "the demand is too big" and just leaving things as they are is necessarily the right answer, because that's what has been done in the past and in general, it seems people are still dissatisfied. This method, just a proposal, would even the playing field a little bit, but only after someone has been extraordinarily lucky.

@ Nyx: No problem! That's why I asked, because I was confused and didn't want to misinterpret you. xD I think people are looking at this proposal as being a lot more limiting than it would actually be, considering for it to even take effect at all, someone would have to win two breedings in a year. That's hard to do, as you've both pointed out, given the amount of couples entering and the demand for slots.

And I agree, it wouldn't make that much of a dent. But it is a small step to try to level the playing field. And if me sitting out on one of my potential pairs, not even a pair I was actively trying with yet, increases everyone else's chances a little more? That's good. Because next year, when I haven't gotten a breeding by November at all, I'll be grateful for limit in place that gives me a very very small advantage to get that breeding since people who have already been very lucky have reduced chances.

I just think that if we can make a difference, even a small one, in getting a wider of variety of people winning breedings, more people taking home baskets, more people feeling better about their chances even if it's a very small increase in chances, that's a good thing. Even if I, personally, can only enter one pair after I've won two breedings, because I have already won two breedings. It's not like I wouldn't have been lucky, or I wouldn't have gotten baskets that year -- just that my chances would be a tiny bit reduced, not eliminated, because I've already been very lucky.

@ Syaoran: I don't like to think of it as penalizing people, as that seems rather harsh, but I understand that it can be viewed that way. It is decreasing your chances after you have won two breedings that year (I want to stress this because gosh dang! That's a lot of luck, really!) but heck, guys, if this rule affects you? You've already won two breedings. You're in the minority, really, since they're so hard to get.

It's increasing the chances, slightly, in fact, if you are that person who has won no breedings this year. And if you're the person who has won two or more breedings that year? Yes, your chances are reduced a little, but you have also been very lucky... and we all know what it's like to be in the position of not winning any breedings. It's really nice to have a stroke of luck and win three or four breedings, but when we don't win any at all, it sucks. I won't deny this a bit.

As for limiting CC, no, not really? It would limit the amount of couples entered into a breeding, so the CC pool would be smaller for a colorist for that particular raffle, but all CC entries would still be up in the Master CC list. I do see what you mean, though, that it would limit the Master CC if the one couple a month quota existed, so...

Maybe, to make a compromise and not to affect the CC, the one-couple-a-month quota would only apply to raffles and not CC? So this would all be strictly raffle wins, not those chosen from the Master CC list, not those bribed, and not those bought with staff credits. This would be purely for raffle wins.  

[samus x]

breedings are pretty even and leveled out already considering they are raffle based. also colorist open so many different types of slots that they really do give everyone a fair chance. i honestly think the breeding system right now works perfectly even if some just get crappy luck.

the way i see it your still coming down to the supple and demand of breedings. and i don't see this as a effective way in increasing others chances by penalizing the one person with luck which doesn't even just penalize them it hurts the people that have couples with them that might not have a ton of pairs or they have a plot going with them that works around that breeding they waiting to try for.

and i will say it again. i believe the MCCL thread that is in place will balance things even more for those who don't get that great of luck in raffles without penalizing those who are winning raffles. when it was being used i saw tons getting picked that were not getting raffle luck at all.

also staff who use their credits for breedings are then limited to one pair in raffles if they use their credits for 1 breeding the month they redeemed credits for it. if they do have enough for 2 they are not allowed in raffles for that month. and also staff who do get a breeding or 2 breedings with credits their breeding is done after the colorist who takes that breeding finishes their qouta for the month.

people are always going to be upset sometimes the same people win a breeding every other month or so but it happens. and really you can't
please everyone because there is always going to be someone unhappy for whatever reason.