Had our first visiting dog last night...

[Skeksis]

Soooo it is day six of Rushie's first real heat and we had our first roaming dog turn up in the yard last night. mad This isn't really an issue because Rushie is on lockdown and is only in the yard with direct supervision; when I'm not around she is in and crated, but it's kinda annoying, wish people would keep their animals contained.
He must have been a small dog to fit through the gate and had already left when I let her out this morning [after checking the coast was clear]. She went out into the yard and immediately started acting weird, went around and sniffed every tree and grass tussock, which she normally doesn't do. And then she put her nose on the ground and started scent trailing around the yard. I had my suspicions as to what had her so interested and then I found that the giant recreational bone she had left right up the back of the yard had been dragged by something down to the gate during the night. The visiting juk must have decided that even if he couldn't find the b***h he was certainly going to take something for his efforts, though I suppose he thought it was a poor trade off.

Now we have been observing all the protocols, she doesn't get to walk her usual local beat, we drive to other places to walk, She isn't getting any off-lead time apart from at the fully enclosed greyhound exercise run at the other end of town, etc.  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

It is possible that the dog wasn't really LEFT to roam per say. Trouble with bitches in heat is they can make a dog a block away go nutso. But kudos for being so vigilant. A classmate of mind ended up with a litter cause their neighbors dog dug a massive whole under their fence to rape their dog.  

[Skeksis]

Blegh, unfortunately there are a number of people around here who don't seem to mind if their yards aren't entirely secure. There's a few dogs I see hanging around on the streets on a semi-frequent basis, most of them small terriers. Thanks for the kudos, certainly don't want terrierxwhippet pups! Or any pups at all for that matter.  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

Skeksis

Blegh, unfortunately there are a number of people around here who don't seem to mind if their yards aren't entirely secure. There's a few dogs I see hanging around on the streets on a semi-frequent basis, most of them small terriers. Thanks for the kudos, certainly don't want terrierxwhippet pups! Or any pups at all for that matter.

Are you planning on spaying her later on? This new vet I see, who does physio and physical training for working dogs, suggests 2yrs to spay/neuter. I think a little younger on the females in an attempt to have the fewest heats. But I found it interesting he's the first vet who isn't like, get those balls off asap. I find vets usually air on the side of caution and just don't trust people to keep their intact dogs out of trouble. But he said in all his training and education they noticed dogs neutered early were more prone to succumb to injury, especially ACL. Maybe that is why Cowboy is so accident prone. I think he was done at 8 months.

It seems like such a huge responsibility though. If you have an intact male, how can you ever give him off-leash socialization? With a female you practically have to ground them for a week. And in school we're taught to fear those hormones, cause early neuters can prevent aggression.  

[Skeksis]

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

Skeksis

Blegh, unfortunately there are a number of people around here who don't seem to mind if their yards aren't entirely secure. There's a few dogs I see hanging around on the streets on a semi-frequent basis, most of them small terriers. Thanks for the kudos, certainly don't want terrierxwhippet pups! Or any pups at all for that matter.

Are you planning on spaying her later on? This new vet I see, who does physio and physical training for working dogs, suggests 2yrs to spay/neuter. I think a little younger on the females in an attempt to have the fewest heats. But I found it interesting he's the first vet who isn't like, get those balls off asap. I find vets usually air on the side of caution and just don't trust people to keep their intact dogs out of trouble. But he said in all his training and education they noticed dogs neutered early were more prone to succumb to injury, especially ACL. Maybe that is why Cowboy is so accident prone. I think he was done at 8 months.

It seems like such a huge responsibility though. If you have an intact male, how can you ever give him off-leash socialization? With a female you practically have to ground them for a week. And in school we're taught to fear those hormones, cause early neuters can prevent aggression.

She will eventually be spayed, however I'm still mulling on exactly when to get it done. Two years at the very least, although it will likely be later than that. ACL injury is specifically one of the things I'm hoping to avoid! 3nodding

As for intact males, they can certainly be given off-lead socialisation. A lot of people expect intact animals to behave like hooligans, but it is very much a matter of training. Much like with any animal...expect them to be uncontrollable and rude and they will be! Especially if the 'oh, they're hormonal, it's normal' excuse is made. wink In all the group hunts I've been there has always been a mixed pack of intact bitches and dogs, most of them unknown to each other. There has never been any issues because they know how they are expected to behave and that skirmishing or lollygagging around looking for available ladies won't be tolerated. Same deal at sheepdog trials, with working farmdogs, etc.
Left unsupervised they will certainly cause trouble for themselves, however that just comes down to responsible pet ownership.

As for aggression, well I wouldn't leave two intact dogs with an in heat b***h, but in the day-to day situation of walking in the park, going for a walk with pals, then I would expect no more issues than with altered dogs, providing the socialisation and training were there. We have a few intact dogs in the little dog-walking group we've formed, as well as my girl and several other intact 'aquaintances' that we see occasionally on our travels. The intact dogs are very well behaved and have never caused any problems.

Lol, sorry for the essay! It's just something I find highly interesting as like you said, people are trained to fear intact animals, and thus far my own [purely anecdotal] experiences do not live up to the expectations of 'savage uncontrollable animals with horrible reproductive bits!' XD  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

Well I've just heard horror stories of what dogs do when they catch the scent on a b***h in heat. And, even the best trained dog, might break commands if he smells that. One breeder I met has his males stay with a friend when his b***h is in heat because otherwise they won't eat the whole time.

And I was taught, (with statistical evidence) that neutering a male dog has a high success rate in preventing aggression, and, depending on the age, a 50/50 rate of "curing" it.

Not to mention there IS still health benefits to early spay/neuter of reducing cancer risks. The current vet I see explained that it's simply their decision to recommend 2yrs after measuring the pro's and cons of both, that the risks of cancer as long as spayed before the 4rth heat and neutered at 2 are still fairly low but they explain to clients the risks of both and let them make an educated decision.

Which is nice, because I brought that up with a teacher and she literally said there was NO risks to early neuter. That the dog would be lankier but health wise would be fine. And then I met this Vet (Dr.W) who confirmed my suspicions.  

[Skeksis]

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

Well I've just heard horror stories of what dogs do when they catch the scent on a b***h in heat. And, even the best trained dog, might break commands if he smells that. One breeder I met has his males stay with a friend when his b***h is in heat because otherwise they won't eat the whole time.

And I was taught, (with statistical evidence) that neutering a male dog has a high success rate in preventing aggression, and, depending on the age, a 50/50 rate of "curing" it.

Not to mention there IS still health benefits to early spay/neuter of reducing cancer risks. The current vet I see explained that it's simply their decision to recommend 2yrs after measuring the pro's and cons of both, that the risks of cancer as long as spayed before the 4rth heat and neutered at 2 are still fairly low but they explain to clients the risks of both and let them make an educated decision.

Which is nice, because I brought that up with a teacher and she literally said there was NO risks to early neuter. That the dog would be lankier but health wise would be fine. And then I met this Vet (Dr.W) who confirmed my suspicions.

Yes, left to their own devices around a b***h in heat they can be nightmares. However the sex drive is like any other strong drive; it doesn't negate all training an make an animal completely unmanageable. The best trained dogs can break commands if the stimulation is compelling enough; this can also be seen with dogs operating in prey drive; even a highly trained prey-driven dog would find it hard to ignore a rabbit getting up from it's seat a few inches from it's nose, but that doesn't mean it is going to be hunt up constantly. And even military and police k9s redirect against their handlers sometimes, but that doesn't mean it is to be expected.
I'm not sure if I'm explaining this very well, haha.

I guess it depends on what sort of aggression, as I'm not sure how it would effect something like food aggression or something like that. I can easily see how it would prevent aggression specifically caused by the presence of in heat bitches. 3nodding As I said my experiences with aggression were anecdotal, and maybe I have just been lucky that my own intact animals have not been any more aggressive than my altered ones, and that the intact animals of the people I spend time with have been fine also.

Oh I never said there were no health benefits! Their definitely are. However their are also health risks, such as the ACL injuries you mentioned and increased risks of Osteosarcoma. It's just another thing that has to be weighed up and the pros and cons examined. Why can't animal care be more simple? Sometimes I envy the people who keep and feed their animals any old way without much thought given to it...they don't seem to be burdened the way we do. XD Your vet sounds amazing, btw.  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

Skeksis

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

Well I've just heard horror stories of what dogs do when they catch the scent on a b***h in heat. And, even the best trained dog, might break commands if he smells that. One breeder I met has his males stay with a friend when his b***h is in heat because otherwise they won't eat the whole time.

And I was taught, (with statistical evidence) that neutering a male dog has a high success rate in preventing aggression, and, depending on the age, a 50/50 rate of "curing" it.

Not to mention there IS still health benefits to early spay/neuter of reducing cancer risks. The current vet I see explained that it's simply their decision to recommend 2yrs after measuring the pro's and cons of both, that the risks of cancer as long as spayed before the 4rth heat and neutered at 2 are still fairly low but they explain to clients the risks of both and let them make an educated decision.

Which is nice, because I brought that up with a teacher and she literally said there was NO risks to early neuter. That the dog would be lankier but health wise would be fine. And then I met this Vet (Dr.W) who confirmed my suspicions.

Yes, left to their own devices around a b***h in heat they can be nightmares. However the sex drive is like any other strong drive; it doesn't negate all training an make an animal completely unmanageable. The best trained dogs can break commands if the stimulation is compelling enough; this can also be seen with dogs operating in prey drive; even a highly trained prey-driven dog would find it hard to ignore a rabbit getting up from it's seat a few inches from it's nose, but that doesn't mean it is going to be hunt up constantly. And even military and police k9s redirect against their handlers sometimes, but that doesn't mean it is to be expected.
I'm not sure if I'm explaining this very well, haha.

I guess it depends on what sort of aggression, as I'm not sure how it would effect something like food aggression or something like that. I can easily see how it would prevent aggression specifically caused by the presence of in heat bitches. 3nodding As I said my experiences with aggression were anecdotal, and maybe I have just been lucky that my own intact animals have not been any more aggressive than my altered ones, and that the intact animals of the people I spend time with have been fine also.

Oh I never said there were no health benefits! Their definitely are. However their are also health risks, such as the ACL injuries you mentioned and increased risks of Osteosarcoma. It's just another thing that has to be weighed up and the pros and cons examined. Why can't animal care be more simple? Sometimes I envy the people who keep and feed their animals any old way without much thought given to it...they don't seem to be burdened the way we do. XD Your vet sounds amazing, btw.

I think they were mostly referring to dog aggression, but not solely in the presence of a b***h. Cowboy is aggressive to intact dogs. It's rather odd, it's like he's insecure, which hasn't helped me convince my friend's man to neuter his nearly 4yr old pit bull. And I know that for sporting events like agility and frisbee, dogs are NOT allowed in the area if they are having a heat. I personally find it a LIL annoying when they come to practice cause Cowboy gets so distracted it's hell to keep his attention.

But ya, I'm very pleased with this new vet so far. Nothing like Savage's but he hasn't tried to switch me to science diet yet. And he was very patient when Cowboy was barking at him cause he's a MAN and I forgot to bring a frisbee. Whereas the vet who did his staples wanted to muzzle him the second he heard him barking. Dr. W won him over and was able to manipulate his injured leg without a peep from him. I need to ask what happened to the original vets at this hospital because I had actually sworn never to go back to that place after they couldn't figure out my cocker had glaucoma. When a simple eye test would have shown that and medication could have given him a longer more comfortable life and preserved his sight longer.