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 Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:04 pm
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Have you heard about the US constitution? I LOVE this thing. I Embrace this constitution.
So, anyone else a Rights lover?
I had this debate with this person on my friends list on Facebook. I've known him for a while and I know that he's an Evangelical. I knew he was homophobic, but you know, I'm not one to judge. I thought it was no secret that I support Gay Marriage. Apparently, he didn't know, or hadn't figured it out. So today I was scrolling the pages of a Gay Marriage page on Facebook, I found a few pictures that I liked a lot, so I shared a few. He promptly commented on one.
His comment was simple and to the point.
'Dislike'
And So The debate ensued! and it went like this:
him:
dislike
about an hour ago · Like
Me: you can dislike it all you want, SHOW me where it says it in the CONSTITUTION.
51 minutes ago · Like
him:
Give me 2 days, Im busy this weekend then Ill give you the a reason
48 minutes ago · Like
Me: I didn't say give me a reason. I said show me where it says it in the constitution. When people came to this country they came for freedom. Of religion, of self. You pretend that you believe in this country, you pretend that you are patriotic but every time you 'salute' every time you say Yes Sir, you're just defecating on the flag. You are a homophobic judgmental racist. If you don't like Gay marriage, don't get one.
41 minutes ago · Like
Him:
Here, while Im reading the constitution think about this. If you try to plug a male end of a cord to a male end of another cord you get nothing but the s**t zapped out of you.
Me: That has nothing to do with it. It isn't about the two men having sex, or two women or whatever! Its about the fact That it is their RIGHT to be able to MARRY who they will, if its what THEY WANT. What makes them HAPPY. Its says right there in the constitution, right at the beginning: "We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote general welfare and secure the Blessing of Liberty to ourselves and our prosperity, do ordain and establish this constitution for the United states of America" The Blessings Of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity. The blessings of Liberty means to be able to achieve your dreams, to Pursue happiness.
24 minutes ago · Like
Me: And one more thing, I would go to hell and back to protect you RIGHT to write this. I would protect your right to bear arms, I would protect every right you have, would you do the same for me?
21 minutes ago · Like
him:
Nope and just so you know because you have posted this you have lost a friend
13 minutes ago · Like
Me: If this is enough to make you hate me, then you are NOT a friend, and I don't want you as a friend.
10 minutes ago · Like
So how did I do?
Anybody else get a little sick towards the middle?
I've read the constitution about ten times.
I don't understand how someone can be SO patriotic and HATE so much that The US is based on... :
Just wanted to share.
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:32 pm
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:35 pm
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:59 pm
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:55 pm
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:17 pm
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:25 pm
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:04 pm
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:20 pm
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Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:05 pm
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Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:44 pm
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I have a few things to say about this. I am not a christian anymore but I was raised christian.
1) The constitution was written so people would have the right to practice their own beliefs, not so that everyone can follow the beliefs of any certain religion
2) I don't believe its right for christians to judge people and persecute them for their believes seeing as how they were persecuted for their beliefs a long time ago.
3) The bible was written a long time ago and has some pretty outdated laws. Exodus 35:2 says that people working on the sabbath should be put to death and Leviticus 11:10 says that shellfish are an abomination
4) If being gay is a sin then according to the bible it is not for people to take action against it
Romans 12:17-21
Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good
1 Thessalonians 5:15
See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone.
5) also the bible is supposed to be the word of god but it was translated and written by humans. and humans are flawed
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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:16 pm
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Elly_the_lost_penguin I have a few things to say about this. I am not a christian anymore but I was raised christian. 1) The constitution was written so people would have the right to practice their own beliefs, not so that everyone can follow the beliefs of any certain religion 2) I don't believe its right for christians to judge people and persecute them for their believes seeing as how they were persecuted for their beliefs a long time ago. 3) The bible was written a long time ago and has some pretty outdated laws. Exodus 35:2 says that people working on the sabbath should be put to death and Leviticus 11:10 says that shellfish are an abomination 4) If being gay is a sin then according to the bible it is not for people to take action against it Romans 12:17-21 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good 1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone. 5) also the bible is supposed to be the word of god but it was translated and written by humans. and humans are flawed
I might sound mean and naggy, but I promise I'm not. As a Christian it's a pet peeve of mine to see people share false information about the Bible (or Christianity). So this is just to clarify for you and anybody who may have read your post: things aren't exactly the way you say.
In response to #2)
The whole "Christians are judgmental" belief is a myth. There are judgmental people everywhere in society. To simply say that it's the Christians is inaccurate. I admit there are judgmental Christians, but they're such a small minority. If you think about every Christian you've met I'm sure you'll see they're not all that bad. Some of the judgmental ones probably weren't even very Christian themselves. What happens is that people meet a couple bad Christians and associate the rest of Christianity with them without any regards to all the good Christians they've met.
I have also never seen a Christian - good or bad - persecute anyone. I have, however, seen non-Christians persecute Christians for their beliefs several times. The truth of the matter is that Christians are judged more and persecuted more for our beliefs than we persecute other people. It's just become socially acceptable to diss on Christianity.
In response to #3)
Both Exodus and Leviticus would be considered part of the old Law. Christians do not follow the old law anymore because, according to our beliefs, Jesus fulfilled the Law(specifically the five books of Moses) and the Prophets(Several books found in the Old Testament) thus placing us under a new covenant. The Old Testament would also have us sacrifice animals but, as you might have noticed, we don't do that either. Unless a Mosaic law is restated or implied again in the New Testament Christians aren't under any obligation to follow that law. For example, "Do not murder" is an idea found in both the Old and New Testaments, therefore we follow that law. Most Levitical laws (such as not eating shellfish) are not found in the New Testament and are not binding to modern-day Christians. They were given for specific purposes which or no longer applicable.
In response to #4)
Though I'm of the persuasion of homosexuality not being a sin, I do believe it's entirely Christian to "take action against [sin]." The Bible says to correct each other (meaning other Christians) when we sin to strengthen each other. It's not Christian, however, to hold non-Christians to Christian standards. So banning gay marriage on the federal level on the grounds of it being "un-Christian" would be wrong.
In response to #5)
I used to think the same thing too, but people aren't as unreliable as you may make them out to be.
When the Old Testament was being recorded it was common for someone's entire life to be dedicated to keeping God's word accurate. Making sure everything said exactly what is was supposed to say was all they did. These people, of course, probably worked in a temple and were under the influence that they were recording God's word. People like that don't just make errors to troll around; they take their jobs seriously. And if you've read and believe the Old Testament, you'd know that making God angry can be a very scary thing. I'm sure through all the translating some words might get jumbled up, but the overall message and holiness of the Bible is still there. I honestly don't care if cow got mistranslated into buffalo or something silly like that. Our Bibles at home may not be a perfect translation, but they have what they need.
The New Testament is a little harder to defend. There were many books that didn't make the Bible. I forgot what they were called, but certain people went away and decided which books will make the New Testament. They didn't do it for political reasons and they had a list of criteria to separate fake and inaccurate gospels from the real legitimate ones.
But despite all these things I believe the easiest and best argument for believing in the Bible is this: when you believe in a God that knows all, is all powerful, is all wise, and is active in the world, the idea that he could keep his gospel recorded in a book for a couple thousand years isn't all too difficult to believe in.
___
I didn't quote Bible passages to support myself, but I promise they're there. It would take FOREVER to find the ones I'm thinking of though. The Bible's rather large, you see. x:
Hope you don't think I'm a jerk because I promise I'm not. I just thought two arguments should be present.
emotion_c8
I included this smiley face as further justification that I'm not a bad person. (': |
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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:37 pm
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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:01 pm
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This is mostly in response to your response to #2)
While it is true that not all Christians are judgmental, and that the rest of society is also guilty of being judgmental, I'd have to say that it's inaccurate to say that Christians don't persecute people. While it may be only a minority of people within the Christian community that does this, it is still present. The Westboro Baptist Church, for example, is possibly one of the most hate filled groups of people that I have ever seen. I'm happy to see that the majority of Christians don't associate with them, but the fact remains that they ARE a group of Christians that are rather vocal about their persecutions towards others.
As well, while Christianity is a target for being persecuted, other religions are easily just as badly treated. Muslims, for example, are still often lumped in with terrorists, despite the fact that the majority of Muslim culture is nothing like that. Do non-Christians persecute Christians? Yes, but to be said that the religion of Christianity is not guilty of the same thing is false.
Just to be clear, I have nothing against Christianity, or any other form of religious faith. I've known a number of Christians who's devotion to their faith I can respect, and I have defended their right to being able to practice their religion - I'm just pointing out that whether it is a minority or not, there IS persecution within Christianity, just as there is with non-Christians. |
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Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:21 pm
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neutral As much as I dislike evangelical "Christians" I must say you handled this rather poorly. While you sound as if you are quite intelligent and know your stuff, you immediately jumped in with an insult. That is NOT a debate in any way shape or form.
Quote: Me: I didn't say give me a reason. I said show me where it says it in the constitution. When people came to this country they came for freedom. Of religion, of self. You pretend that you believe in this country, you pretend that you are patriotic but every time you 'salute' every time you say Yes Sir, you're just defecating on the flag. You are a homophobic judgmental racist. If you don't like Gay marriage, don't get one. 41 minutes ago · Like
4th post in, and while he disagreed, he had said nothing deserving of this. Not a good idea at all, it does not advance your argument. Any opponent who sees this will say "See? Here's what every pro-gay marriage activist is like, they are unreasonable and have to turn immediately towards insults!" I've seen that happen too often before. You are supposed to leave brutishness to the social conservatives. (And of course, I never said I didn't have a serious bias myself)
The point of a debate is to attempt to get your opponent or the undecideds to see your point and eventually agree with it. I do not see this happening here. This said, I support marriage equality in full force, and do believe that this guy was a jerk. However, you do not need to be coming off like that yourself.
Visual Brian, I'm going to make a point by point here, so
Quote: In response to #2) The whole "Christians are judgmental" belief is a myth. There are judgmental people everywhere in society. To simply say that it's the Christians is inaccurate. I admit there are judgmental Christians, but they're such a small minority. If you think about every Christian you've met I'm sure you'll see they're not all that bad. Some of the judgmental ones probably weren't even very Christian themselves. What happens is that people meet a couple bad Christians and associate the rest of Christianity with them without any regards to all the good Christians they've met. I have also never seen a Christian - good or bad - persecute anyone. I have, however, seen non-Christians persecute Christians for their beliefs several times. The truth of the matter is that Christians are judged more and persecuted more for our beliefs than we persecute other people. It's just become socially acceptable to diss on Christianity. I disagree very much here. Christians, as a whole not individually, as part of the "one true religion" deal hold themselves to a "higher standard" morally than most folks. In this particular case, I am reminded of the "Do not judge, lest ye be judged" in the Christian Bible. If you must hold yourself to the Word, hold yourself to it completely. Most evangelicals and other Christians I've met don't even make the attempt. My biggest issue is that it IS largely Christians fighting marriage equality. You claim it is a minority. Well, that minority is a very loud, very zealous, very mean, and very influential minority, You mention Christians should try to "take action against [sin]." I believe therefore, it is the job of all [the majority] of [good] Christians to take action against those loud angry ones who are sinning and to be held to Christian standards.
And yes, when Christians who are supposed to be non-judgmental and are the most commonly known to try to make others who aren't in the same line of thought adhere to a same set of beliefs and persecute others.... Well it's hypocritical in the highest sense, and attention SHOULD be brought to it. And I'm saying this as a ex-full-now-semi-Christian.... In response to #4) Though I'm of the persuasion of homosexuality not being a sin, I do believe it's entirely Christian to "take action against [sin]." The Bible says to correct each other (meaning other Christians) when we sin to strengthen each other. It's not Christian, however, to hold non-Christians to Christian standards. So banning gay marriage on the federal level on the grounds of it being "un-Christian" would be wrong. Like I said, according to this reasoning it is the job of all good Christians to take action against those loud angry ones who are to be held to Christian standards.
In response to #5) I used to think the same thing too, but people aren't as unreliable as you may make them out to be. When the Old Testament was being recorded it was common for someone's entire life to be dedicated to keeping God's word accurate. Making sure everything said exactly what is was supposed to say was all they did. These people, of course, probably worked in a temple and were under the influence that they were recording God's word. People like that don't just make errors to troll around; they take their jobs seriously. And if you've read and believe the Old Testament, you'd know that making God angry can be a very scary thing. I'm sure through all the translating some words might get jumbled up, but the overall message and holiness of the Bible is still there. I honestly don't care if cow got mistranslated into buffalo or something silly like that. Our Bibles at home may not be a perfect translation, but they have what they need. The New Testament is a little harder to defend. There were many books that didn't make the Bible. I forgot what they were called, but certain people went away and decided which books will make the New Testament. They didn't do it for political reasons and they had a list of criteria to separate fake and inaccurate gospels from the real legitimate ones. The Dead Sea Scrolls. But once again, I must disagree. If my memory serves me right, Mary Magdalene also wrote a book, but it was left out. Hmm, wonder why, when she was supposedly close to Christ? The Church has a history of political biases and involvements, and all human biases of the scholars that decided what to include, and the scribes that rewrote it, I do believe are fully present in the Bible. A truly fair and just God would not condone a lot of the actions and practices the Bible seems to say He did anyway. Not to mention Lilith was written out of the Bible. And Asherah. Lookie here...But despite all these things I believe the easiest and best argument for believing in the Bible is this: when you believe in a God that knows all, is all powerful, is all wise, and is active in the world, the idea that he could keep his gospel recorded in a book for a couple thousand years isn't all too difficult to believe in. But why this isn't the oldest religion, if it is the all-powerful-all-knowing God of the one true religion... Anyyyways.... I guess I don't want a theological debate here, so just food for thought.
I'm sorry if I sound nitpicky, but while I don't see you as a jerk at all, your arguments sounded a lot like complaints and excuses that weren't particularly well-grounded. I mean, they sounded that way to me. ^ ^" Or something like that. Therefore I thought I'd contribute a little.
:C8:
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