Should Christians Say the Pledge of Allegiance?

[Aquatic_blue]

I know that in America today (sorry to those who aren't in the United States - although you can still participate in this) in schools this is highly enforced. I remember the first day of kindergarten, the whole class had to learn the Pledge of Allegiance. As a kid, I had to say it so I didn't see anything wrong with it and said it because we had to and every morning of every day of school it was said and the whole class would get up, put their hands over their heart, and recite it out loud. Well, after many years of doing this - I stopped saying the Pledge of Allegiance because not everyone in class said it and early in the morning, I really don't feel like talking so I would stand there and pray in my mind through it and through the 30 seconds of silence. I thought it may be "rebellious" even to not say it, but no one got onto me about it. At my brother's 8th grade graduation, my Mom gave me a nasty look when I wouldn't recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Later on, I thought to myself if the Pledge of Allegiance is something that believers should be saying and came across a few articles explaining a view point on how it came about.

The American flag or flag of any country can be a hot debate because some denominations or non-denominations see it as an "idol" instead of a "symbol" of a nation. So some people don't appreciate flags, while others hold their country's flag up with great pride.

I would honestly like to see everyone's view point about this. You don't have to live in the United States to participate and can discuss flags in general or pledge of allegiances.

My view point:

The Pledge of Allegiance for America is:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

*Now, I see how most Christians see the Pledge of Allegiance as "good" because it says "one nation under God" and get offended when atheists sue schools for making their child say "one nation under God". However, because of the history I have stopped saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

A pledge is to promise, to bind something to, an agreement, an oath, etc. etc. and in Caesar's time, people would pledge their allegiance to Caesar. Caesar was also seen as "lord" and "god". The consequence for not pledging your allegiance to Caesar was death. Pledging your allegiance to something or someone was to bind yourself to that person or object and serve that person or object. However, as Christians, we know that Jesus is Lord.

When we say the pledge of allegiance we are pledging ourselves to the country's flag. Most people do not realize what the pledge of allegiance even means because it's repeated so often that people say it mindlessly when they're told because that's how it was either at home, at school, or at some other event. I'm afraid this topic may be more serious than most of us have thought.

About this, there are a few verses that come to mind when thinking on this topic:

Matthew 5:33 - 37 NIV:

“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Matthew 12:25 NIV:

Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.

James 5:12 NIV:

Above all, my brothers and sisters, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. All you need to say is a simple “Yes” or “No.” Otherwise you will be condemned.

*As far as country flags go - it's fine to have a flag symbolize your nation. I know some people may idolize the flag in their country, which can be a problem. All in all - as a symbol, it isn't a bad thing or something to represent where you came from.

However, God and country are important together. We serve God and serve the people - not serve a flag alone. We also witness to people in the land, which is important. However, we can defy things that are not of God - even if some of those things are in a country. We can be in a country with authority over us, and not pledge allegiance to anyone but God. Hopefully that makes sense.

Anyway, what are your opinions on all of this? I've noticed it is a complex issue and I'm interested in the discussion it can bring about.  

[Rae of Hope]

I personally liked saying the pledge. I saw it as a way to show that I loved my country. I always thought it was really disrespectful that the boys in my class would always say it as fast as possible so that they could sit down. For me, the flag is just a symbol of this nation and the people who died so that we could be free. Reciting the pledge is something like a prayer of appreciation. I pledge my allegiance to my country, but that allegiance does not come before my allegiance to God.
I think I started to become more appreciative of our pledge and our national anthem when I started getting interested in other countries national anthems. They're so full of pride about who they are as a nations and what they have accomplished. The pride of other countries gave me more pride for my own. I don't see anything wrong with being appreciative of where I live.

But I think most people don't think the same way as I do about the pledge.  

[ll-0RACL3_kun-ll]

I agree that the flag should be seen as a symbol only and not as an idol. I think christians(those who don't want recite the pledge of allegiance) are confused with their decision of not reciting the pledge. I mean I think they feared the idea that they're actually pledging to an idol(influenced by people who really idolize the flag), but it's a wrong mindset. Instead they should think of it as having pride for America. I don't mind hearing the side of the 33% against the pledge though mrgreen  

[911child]

When ever i did the pledge (when i was a kindergartner and when i was born again in Middle School) I did the pledge as normal, though when it came to saying "One Nation Under God" I always made a promise to God that i will do my best to please him.  

[Aquatic_blue]

ll-0RACL3_kun-ll

I agree that the flag should be seen as a symbol only and not as an idol. I think christians(those who don't want recite the pledge of allegiance) are confused with their decision of not reciting the pledge. I mean I think they feared the idea that they're actually pledging to an idol(influenced by people who really idolize the flag), but it's a wrong mindset. Instead they should think of it as having pride for America. I don't mind hearing the side of the 33% against the pledge though mrgreen

Hmm...I see what you say. I suppose the only problem is I don't feel it's right to have "pride" in America because pride comes before the fall:

Proverbs 16:18 NIV

Pride goes before destruction,
a haughty spirit before a fall.

*And I suppose in the book of 1 Samuel when Israel wanted a physical king instead of God as their king - even after Samuel told them what would happen if they got a physical king over them, the Israelites wanted a king anyway. Samuel was frustrated, but talked to God about it and God said to give them a king and they gave them Saul, who was later rebuked by God, and David was meant to be the rightful king. Technically, a flag in a way is a banner for a king or higher authority, which is for the country as well. I suppose it all winds down to what the person feels is right in their heart.  

[Aoife]

I didn't know this was even something Christians thought of to debate about before! Interesting!
After giving this some thought, I still hold my position of saying the pledge. There are plenty of cases where someone pledged or vowed to stand with someone in the Bible and that didn't mean they were placed above God. My husband and I have pledged ourselves to each other and I submit to his decisions even if I don't agree (after we have discussed it, and he DOES listen to me, but bottom line is he IS called to be the head of this home) and I can pledge myself to my country, indeed I feel I should and pray for it and sometimes I don't' agree with all the policies, but I do recognize that God did put leaders in place even if I don't agree with them to put his greater plans and purposes into place.
We are told to give to Ceasar what is his due and God what is His, I can serve both, but if my country called me to do something specifically against God Word, I wouldn't. (if mandatory abortions were ever in place for whatever reason or some other unfathomable thing I can't come up with now)
That's my take anyway,  

[Dolphina Oceanus]

I'm not speaking for anyone else here, but this is how I feel.

I do not believe that by saying the Pledge of Allegiance, I am putting America before God. I believe that God placed me in this Country for a reason, and that He sort of expects me to be loyal to the Country He gave me. I feel that, as both a Follower of Christ and an American, I am called to serve both America and God. By Pledging Allegiance, I feel that I am simply proclaiming that I am fulfilling my duty and being a loyal citizen of the Country God chose for me. He created me to love America. He designed me, and in that design placed a strong sense of belonging to America, a desperate need to protect my Country. He gave me a fierce sense of Pride in my Country, so strong, that after college, I will enlist in the Navy. (I don't believe pride in a Country is a bad type of pride. There are indeed bad prides, such as pride in yourself, but I believe a Country is something God gave to us, a gift from Him, that we should be glad to have.)

Of course, if you do not love America the same way I do, or have an issue with the Pledge or Allegiance, there is no need for you to recite it. However, I will gladly recite it, as it is, to me, a memory of the great gift my God has given me.  

[Aquatic_blue]

Aoife

I didn't know this was even something Christians thought of to debate about before! Interesting!
After giving this some thought, I still hold my position of saying the pledge. There are plenty of cases where someone pledged or vowed to stand with someone in the Bible and that didn't mean they were placed above God. My husband and I have pledged ourselves to each other and I submit to his decisions even if I don't agree (after we have discussed it, and he DOES listen to me, but bottom line is he IS called to be the head of this home) and I can pledge myself to my country, indeed I feel I should and pray for it and sometimes I don't' agree with all the policies, but I do recognize that God did put leaders in place even if I don't agree with them to put his greater plans and purposes into place.
We are told to give to Ceasar what is his due and God what is His, I can serve both, but if my country called me to do something specifically against God Word, I wouldn't. (if mandatory abortions were ever in place for whatever reason or some other unfathomable thing I can't come up with now)
That's my take anyway,

Pledging yourself to your spouse is different compared to that of pledging to a nation. As a spouse you become one with your partner for life. As a loyal person pledging to a nation you are giving someone authority over you, and your decisions. You could say, "I will swear to the nation my loyalty", but loyalty to a country that does not actually follow God's commands and rules? I suppose that sounds like a bit of a stretch to me.

If you look at the basic Ten Commandments, and how the laws were put into place, would you say that the nation follows those laws? Does it complete the Justice set down by God to the letter? Or does it allow for people to slip through without punishment for crimes?
In the case of swearing to follow a nation because it seems like the right thing to do, does not always deem it to be the correct thing before God. God can call a person to serve Him by protecting a nation, by protecting His people, but God would never tell a person to swear/pledge/promise loyalty to anyone but Him.

Aquatic_blue

Matthew 5:33 - 37 NIV:

“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Matthew 12:25 NIV:

Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.

James 5:12 NIV:

Above all, my brothers and sisters, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. All you need to say is a simple “Yes” or “No.” Otherwise you will be condemned.

 

[Aquatic_blue]

Dolphina Oceanus

I'm not speaking for anyone else here, but this is how I feel.

I do not believe that by saying the Pledge of Allegiance, I am putting America before God. I believe that God placed me in this Country for a reason, and that He sort of expects me to be loyal to the Country He gave me. I feel that, as both a Follower of Christ and an American, I am called to serve both America and God. By Pledging Allegiance, I feel that I am simply proclaiming that I am fulfilling my duty and being a loyal citizen of the Country God chose for me. He created me to love America. He designed me, and in that design placed a strong sense of belonging to America, a desperate need to protect my Country. He gave me a fierce sense of Pride in my Country, so strong, that after college, I will enlist in the Navy. (I don't believe pride in a Country is a bad type of pride. There are indeed bad prides, such as pride in yourself, but I believe a Country is something God gave to us, a gift from Him, that we should be glad to have.)

Of course, if you do not love America the same way I do, or have an issue with the Pledge or Allegiance, there is no need for you to recite it. However, I will gladly recite it, as it is, to me, a memory of the great gift my God has given me.

As the children of Israel cried out for a king, their loyalty was being given to a man because they wanted a physical authority that they could see and hear. They wanted a nation to lead them instead of God. If you realize that you are pledging your loyalty to a nation that has fallen from the grace of God by placing themselves above God and removing Him from schools, government, the court system, law enforcement, and even in some parks or other public places then it is worth re-considering the facts. God said to put nothing before Him, no serving anyone but Him. As a person loyal to the military, I understand how you feel loyalty to your nation, but remember if you were called by God to serve Him, by not enlisting into the service would you do it? Do feel that God would never call a person to not serve their country?
Remember that King Saul was the one who called forth an army and had the men of Israel counted, and had them swear loyalty to him and the land to protect the Kingdom of Israel, which in result was putting himself before God (and rebuked by God).

If you take the structure of the Bible and how God truly had it in the days past, and put it into context of today, you wouldn't have sworn to follow anyone but God, not even a king or a land, just God.

Aquatic_blue

Matthew 5:33 - 37 NIV:

“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Matthew 12:25 NIV:

Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.

James 5:12 NIV:

Above all, my brothers and sisters, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. All you need to say is a simple “Yes” or “No.” Otherwise you will be condemned.

 

[Aoife]

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Rom 13:1  

[Dolphina Oceanus]

Aquatic_blue

Oh, had God instructed me not to pledge my loyalty to my Nation, I of course would not say the Pledge of Allegiance. Sorry for the confusion! I do feel that God would call a person to not serve their Country, and I would expect them to follow his orders. However, He has not called me to not serve my Country, in fact, I believe He has called me to serve America. I would never put America before God had He told me not to.  

[Aquatic_blue]

Aoife

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Rom 13:1

Also, we mustn't forget to read the rest of that passage of Romans 13:

Romans 13:2 - 7 NIV:

Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

*Submission is different than pledging. For example, to follow the laws that do not defy God. Also, pay taxes - render unto Caesar what is Caesar's (Mark 12:17).

As for the verse you quote, I would like to mention that in the ancient Greek, there were two definitions of "submission":

1. This word was a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader".

2. In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden". (Strong's G5293 - hypotassō)

*As a key point, we serve and submit unto God. Yes, he put's people in authority, and even puts people into power. However, that does not imply that we are to take up allegiance to that individual or government. For example, look at Joseph, son of Israel, in the Old Testament. While he obeyed the laws, he would not bend his faith. Also, Daniel who was cast into the lion's den for not obeying the government because they were against God. Samson, who instead of submitting to the government of the Philistines fought against them with the strength God had given him.

If, for example, a nation followed God then yielding to that government would be in accordance to God's will. In contrast, we could look at what you're saying and say, "Yes, we can submit to a nation," but the fact is - are you willing to submit to a nation that creates laws and systems that hinder faith and spiritual outreach? Just as a thought. Remember, one such nation as in the US took prayer out of school then has ordered troops to "kindly" not say "Merry Christmas", or use Jesus in military funerals (for prayer and such).  

[Aquatic_blue]

Dolphina Oceanus

Aquatic_blue

Oh, had God instructed me not to pledge my loyalty to my Nation, I of course would not say the Pledge of Allegiance. Sorry for the confusion! I do feel that God would call a person to not serve their Country, and I would expect them to follow his orders. However, He has not called me to not serve my Country, in fact, I believe He has called me to serve America. I would never put America before God had He told me not to.

It's okay, we all make typo's, or type things we understand, but some people read differently smile and I am glad that you put God first as we all should do 3nodding  

[Aoife]

Clearly we are going to disagree here. That's ok I think. I wouldn't ever ask you to do something that goes against your conscience. If it does go against your conscience and you do it anyway, I do believe that is sin to you then. (Yes, I can find scripture later if you need me to backing that statement up)

“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation UNDER GOD, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

I am pledging myself to my country UNDER GOD. I do not feel one bit that I am dishonoring God or doing anything wrong. I do not have your conviction. I am not swayed by your arguments at this time, nor by the Holy Spirit within me. Perhaps if I had heard this argument when I was much newer in the Lord I may have jumped all over this (saved a few years or less) as I had a much "harder" view of God, I was much more likely to judge myself right and others wrong, but now I realize that the more I learn about God, the more I have to learn about God. His ways are greater than mine and His thoughts higher! I am constantly evolving as I learn more and my views change and grow. Currently however, I am not changing on this. wink  

[Aquatic_blue]

Aoife

Clearly we are going to disagree here. That's ok I think. I wouldn't ever ask you to do something that goes against your conscience. If it does go against your conscience and you do it anyway, I do believe that is sin to you then. (Yes, I can find scripture later if you need me to backing that statement up)

“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation UNDER GOD, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

I am pledging myself to my country UNDER GOD. I do not feel one bit that I am dishonoring God or doing anything wrong. I do not have your conviction. I am not swayed by your arguments at this time, nor by the Holy Spirit within me. Perhaps if I had heard this argument when I was much newer in the Lord I may have jumped all over this (saved a few years or less) as I had a much "harder" view of God, I was much more likely to judge myself right and others wrong, but now I realize that the more I learn about God, the more I have to learn about God. His ways are greater than mine and His thoughts higher! I am constantly evolving as I learn more and my views change and grow. Currently however, I am not changing on this. wink

Whether or not you change on this matter is your decision and that is between you and God.

I usually put in my input so others can see outside of the box, think out of the box, and to find out the true meaning of God's words and the belief's others have on matters that we may consider to be "gray areas". As The Holy Bible says - "As iron sharpens iron, one person sharpens another."