"and ye shall be as gods.."

[Garland-Green]

I didn't always use to be a Christian. At one point I was an esoteric Buddhist...

I was looking for enlightenment, and freedom from suffering. I did this for years thinking the truth was inside myself and believed that I only needed the right technique to find it. Eventually I accumulated a huge number of occult books. About different yogas, and biographies of so called enlightened people. The word yoga is derived from Sanskrit, yunakti, and means yoking or union. युनक्ति { युज् }, yunakti { yuj }, verb, come into union or conjunction with. युनक्ति { युज् }, yunakti { yuj }, verb, unite. युनक्ति { युज् }


I think it is sufficient to that you can't find happiness looking inward. Those were the worst years of my life. With self injury, and general hopelessness. No matter how many hours you spend meditating you won't be free. Only Jesus brings real freedom and sets captives free. Back then I spent most of my spare time when I was not meditating or going to work, online flirting with girls where ever I came across them. I had cybersex with girls on Gaia, and broke hearts as easily as someone would give it. I used girls to distract me from a loneliness that those types of "relationships" couldn't heal. My ideas of the opposite sex was very colored by how much pornography I was consuming. How it formed and molded my thinking. My mind would automatically go in that direction when talking to a girl. I would evaluate her based on how sexually attractive she was. I had a long lasting long distance relationship with a girl on Gaia that was less than healthy because I couldn't stay faithful and felt good when I managed to make her feel jealous. We talked on the phone and through webcam until one day she refused to say she loved me, and I being short tempered always in need of affirmation ended it with that. For someone looking to get rid of pain in myself I didn't hesitate inflicting pain on others. Compassion is not so important if nothing is real. Compassion is important if you believe there is a God and that there is a certain moral standard based on God's character which has to be upheld, if not - it is optional.

There was also a vampire guild back then I ran as Louis, the vampire from Anne Rice novels. I used the guild to attract attention to myself.

I had a friend, Mimmi, at that time that I had gotten to know through my dad. He did work on her house, and I took care of her garden. I rushed through mowing her lawn just so I could sit with her and talk. She has spent much of her life with gurus trying to achieve enlightenment, or self realization. When she was younger she had plans of becoming a professional singer.

This was my introduction to it. I asked many questions, and immersed myself in the subject. She would talk to a voice inside herself to see if she could bring up certain subjects to me (This is pretty scary, since I now know what that voice was and what intentions it had towards me). The voice that had tricked her was also trying to trick me down the road that it had made her walk. She told me not to tell this to anyone, but I don't consider that binding since my agreement to keep this to myself was based on the understanding that it was the Truth, and not a lie. I believe it is something that should be shared so people will understand what we are up against.

When she was young she walked into a meeting that the white brotherhood had (in London I believe). She didn't know at the time who they were, or what they were capable of. When she walked in they were talking about her, what she was trying to do, and they were discussing her. She named the leader at the time. Someone she said was very advanced spiritually. It sounded to me like she said San Chermè, but it is possible that she obscured his name by pronouncing it in French (she was fluent in French). It could have been Saint Germain she said. 'Saint' is pronounced words sain and sein in French, and Germain is pronounced j uh r - m ai n. If it was someone claiming to be Saint Germain then there are many interesting things that could be said about this individual. According to some of his followers gave the world through a man something called The 'I AM' discourses. In these discourses he is attempting to convince you that you are the 'I AM'. Does anything of this sound familiar to you? Who said you can been like God if you only eat of this fruit?

The 'I AM' discourses has its origin in Guy Warren Ballard who with his wife Edna Anne Wheeler Ballard, founded the "I AM" Activity. Ballard claimed to have been in contact with Saint Germain, who he considered to be an ascended master. According to Ballard Germain dictated to him what to write. Is this the same being claiming to be Saint Germain that my friend saw and spoke to? We can't know for sure, but it does fits his modus operandi.

Where we first are told about God's name is in the Bible. Let's examine together what it says. God is not inconsistent in His messages, so let us see if it lines up with Ballard's claim.

Exodus 3:7
And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

I Exodus 3 He tells Moses to tell the children of Israel that I AM has sent you (Moses). He doesn't say that Moses should go tell the children of Israel that they are I AM, or that Moses is I AM. There would be no distinctions between God and Moses, so He would not have sent anyone. There would be no you and there would be no sending of any kind. But God can't lie. That is one of His character traits, a part of what makes Him God. He is Truth by nature (John 17:17, Psalm 31:5, John 1:14, Numbers 23:19). So there is a clear distinction between you/me and God. There is a God - and He is not you/me.

So who is telling us that we are I AM, if it is not God Himself who is doing it? Who benefits from us not thinking there is a distinction?

Let us get back to Saint Germain again for a little bit.
Wikipedia has an article about Saint Germain I would like to share a snippet from;

Myths, legends and speculations about St. Germain began to be widespread in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and continue today. They include beliefs that he is immortal, the Wandering Jew, an alchemist with the "Elixir of Life", a Rosicrucian, and that he prophesied the French Revolution. He is said to have met the forger Giuseppe Balsamo (alias Cagliostro) in London and the composer Rameau in Venice. Some groups honor Saint Germain as a supernatural being called an Ascended Master.

According to themselves The White Brotherhood is; "an organization of Ascended Masters united for the highest purposes of God on Earth." To be an ascended master you have to achieve Christ-consciousness which is another word for self-realization often used in New Age. See how they make Christ into being something something smaller than He is, and how they glorify themselves? They talk about God, but it is a twisted message, one that has no freedom in it. It is a god where you are god. You should always be on your guard when someone glorifies themselves, and show a prideful nature (Proverbs 16:5). My conclusion at this time is that they were either possessed, malevolent beings, or people who communicated with spirits that Mimmi had come in contact with through her yogic practices (she was maybe the first person in my country to do yoga, and she has had a few students. Some of which have gone on to start their own yoga classes) and mystic research. She was also making potions, doing alchemy to extend her life.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour:

She slipped and fell on the ice on the way to pick up her mail, a few years before I met her, and broke her back. This caused her to be bound to a wheelchair the remainder of her life. She died in a retirement home at the age of 94, back in 2007 - the same year I was saved. She didn't want to live anymore, and she thought that by dying she would be reborn into a better body so she could try achieving enlightenment once more since she felt it was within her grasp. A thing she said to me while she was half asleep in her chair, maybe realizing that she had been on the wrong track (?) has stuck with me since then; "Evil men, have taken over the world." This was the sentence that made me search and look for the truth in a different way then I had before.

Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

I came across a site one day, not too long after she has said this to me, being constantly in search for the truth. It was a Christian site, based on a speaker at 'The Prophecy Club'. It was writing about the very people I used to look up to. Showing me their real nature, and that there is real evil in the world. I believe this was God nudging me to accept Him. If there is real evil (not just human evil)- there is also real goodness. That night I went for a walk and I cried, confessing my sins to God, and asking him for forgiveness for not believing in Jesus and what he did for me on the cross.

I felt relieved, like a huge burden had been cut of my back. Like the strings to an enormous luggage that I had been pulling behind me had been cut.

I ended up burning all of my old books. The title of my testimony is from Genesis when the serpent tricks Eve and Adam to eat the fruit. It is something he uses to this very day in order to deceive people. A deception I myself was victim to.


However - though I was deceived I was also guilty in that I had made myself open to such deception. Deception doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens where there is room for the deception to take root and grow. In me the deception found fertil soil as it appealed to my desire to worship myself. To put myself above all things and everyone. To be someone in possession of special powers. With self-realization of Yogananda and other Indian gurus came the promise that I was alreadygod, I just needed to rediscover it. I was as guilty as those the deception originated with.

Many, if not all of these alternative philosophies and spiritual practices such as yoga etc have real spiritual evil entities as a source. They are not discovered by humans for the betterment of humanity. It is the work of deceitful spirits, and the doctrines of demons. I will use Theosophy as an example, because many of the experiences are similar when it comes to how these evil spirits operate to germinate their doctrines: Helena Blavatsky (Controversial religious writer and leader, a founder of the Theosophical Society, who widened the exposure to Eastern religions in the West), said she first met her Teacher, a spirit who she said inspired her later studies and insights. Her later claims were that from that point, she was visited by key masters (mahatmas) who lived on a higher plane. She was, she said, appointed their messenger.

Like Blavatsky, my friend Mimmi also had things like books appear in her (locked) house, on specific topics relevant to her attempt at self-realization. Books she told me were almost impossible to find, because they were limited prints, and obscure. She showed me some of the books, and I borrowed a couple of them. Blavatsky had been receiving messages from the Mahatmas, she claimed, by miraculously appearing letters. There was a shrine in her "Occult Room" that had a closed cabinet. Every so often, letters from the Mahatmas, as well as other objects, would miraculously appear inside the cabinet.

Quote from blavatskyarchives;
H.P. Blavatsky was then forty-two years old and in controlled possession of her many and most unusual spiritual and occult powers. In the opinion of the Mahatmas, she was the best available instrument for the work they had in mind, namely to offer to the world a new presentation, though only in brief outline of the age-old Theosophia, "The accumulated Wisdom of the ages, tested and verified by generations of Seers...," that body of Truth of which religions, great and small, are but as branches of the parent tree. Her task was to challenge on the one hand the entrenched beliefs and dogmas of Christian Theology and on the other the equally dogmatic materialistic view of the science of her day. A crack, however, had recently appeared in the twofold set of mental fortifications. It was caused by Spiritualism, then sweeping America. To quote Helena’s own words: "I was sent to prove the phenomena and their reality, and to show the fallacy of the spiritualistic theory of spirits."

Unlike Jesus they appeal to man's intellectual, spiritual vanity, and pride, while Jesus urge you to be humble, and be obedient. They claim to have a special knowledge that is only for the Initiated. Those with the right spiritual development to understand it. "You are special to be honored with this message from the masters. Special spiritual techniques for your spiritual development. You are the special elect." It puffs you up, make you bigger than you really are. Distorts reality and prevents you from knowing the Truth. The message of salvation is much simpler than that, and it doesn't elevate you, but the author of salvation - Jesus Christ (Hebrews 12:2).

The good news message is so uncomplicated (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), that people don't want it and see it as foolishness. Christ died for you despite of yourself, not because you can do anything in the present to deserve His sacrifice, or because you did anything in the past.

I also got married to my wife because of God's help, whom I met on Gaia back in 2007. She no longer uses Gaia, but I am still here. A few months later we decided to met in the US. She came with me back home to Norway after I stayed for more than three months in the US attempting to get a passport for her. We lived in dilapidated motels where people sold drugs next door, walked through neighborhoods where people ran after each other and there were people sitting on their stairs under the influence of drugs (?). I waved money around like the foolish tourist I was (muggings don't happen where I live), but we got through safe. We cried and we wailed because we saw no hope of her getting her passport, but we found a place called Rainbow Passport Services after going through all the numbers we could find in the phone-book. A place where they dealt mainly with getting passports for Muslims. That is the impression I got since there were so many Muslims working there at the time. They managed to expedite an application for a passport through a senator. We got her passport the same day as the tickets we had bought were intended to be used. At the airport there was military personell discussing whether or not they should detain me for questioning because I had been two weeks over my allowed date. They decided against this since they had let a few other people earlier get through who had been there longer than the allowed time.

My plan as a Buddhist had been to go into the Himalayan mountains to meditate, away from everything, instead God sent me to the US to met my wife. Or rather, He granted me my request after me begging Him, and being a bit obnoxious about it now that I look back, to have a wife because I was lonely. I didn't at the time get the fullness and completeness there is in the Holy Spirit, being a new Christian, so I was holding on to the old feelings of being alone I used to have, not seeing what I had received. But I am very grateful to God. God hasn't left me to my own devices. We went through a nightmare just to be together, and a nightmare once we moved to my country with miscarriages, illness and troubles. Nobody said being a Christian is easy, or the easy way out. If anything it is harder with more troubles, trials and temptations, but I take comfort in knowing that Jesus is there and he never gives up, never rests. He knows our troubles because he has been there. He went through them. He knows what we need, and in the troubles we experience we are being equipped for better things.  

[Aoife]

Garland-Green

I felt relieved, like a huge burden had been cut of my back. Like the strings to an enormous luggage that I had been pulling behind me had been cut.

...but I comfort in knowing that Jesus is there and he never gives up, never rests. He knows our troubles because he has been there. He went through them. He knows what we need.

What a beautiful testimony! I LOVE how it's SUCH a relief once you find that salvation, that true relationship with the Lord, getting "saved" (maybe everyone doesn't use that term) or "born-again" is such a wonderful feeling!

You are right, it isn't always easy, but there is no freedom in ourselves. smile
I wasn't always a Christian either, I was late 20's when I got saved, in bad situations and spots in my life. The release was immediate, but it also took me a while of working the old out and "renewing my mind" to understand the depth of my freedom.

I love how God sets us free!  

[Garland-Green]

Aoife

Garland-Green

I felt relieved, like a huge burden had been cut of my back. Like the strings to an enormous luggage that I had been pulling behind me had been cut.

...but I comfort in knowing that Jesus is there and he never gives up, never rests. He knows our troubles because he has been there. He went through them. He knows what we need.

What a beautiful testimony! I LOVE how it's SUCH a relief once you find that salvation, that true relationship with the Lord, getting "saved" (maybe everyone doesn't use that term) or "born-again" is such a wonderful feeling!

You are right, it isn't always easy, but there is no freedom in ourselves. smile
I wasn't always a Christian either, I was late 20's when I got saved, in bad situations and spots in my life. The release was immediate, but it also took me a while of working the old out and "renewing my mind" to understand the depth of my freedom.

I love how God sets us free!

Thank you. It is a wonderful feeling. ^^ Though we don't always feel the peace we used to initially we are not told to rely on feelings (feelings change and are not always a subject to the truth), but on faith. God sets us free because of himself; his love. heart

It is a life long commitment. How were you saved? Do you want to share your story? smile  

[Aoife]

Garland-Green

Thank you. It is a wonderful feeling. ^^ Though we don't always feel the peace we used to initially we are not told to rely on feelings (feelings change and are not always a subject to the truth), but on faith. God sets us free because of himself; his love. heart

It is a life long commitment. How were you saved? Do you want to share your story? smile

Yeah, I know we can't rely on our feelings! My Pastor is famous for saying "there are two times to pray, when you feel like it and when you don't." Lol, I always loved that!
I will happily share another time, tonight I must get to bed! sweatdrop  

[Samael KOT]

Your problem with the inner part of it is that you don't believe it was real. You believe in Christianity with all your heart (wrongfully)
The thing is that having a positive outlook spreads among your whole life and believing that someone exists can help it be so. It's all bout believing with all your heart, if you believe with all your heart that God exists and is looking after you, your life will go better because you believe it with all your heart and think you have help but it's all really you. So the truth is that it's all inner, though there is a lot of supernatural things in the world, there is however no proof of an omnipotent being. Though there is a concept that with enough will from enough people a spirit can be born but it definitely won't be omnipotent. So yeah, it's just how you view something. You weren't into the other thing and didn't believe it with all your heart but then something made you believe in christianity (either from widespread belief all around the world or another) which made it seem successful.  

[Garland-Green]

Samael KOT

Your problem with the inner part of it is that you don't believe it was real. You believe in Christianity with all your heart (wrongfully)
The thing is that having a positive outlook spreads among your whole life and believing that someone exists can help it be so. It's all bout believing with all your heart, if you believe with all your heart that God exists and is looking after you, your life will go better because you believe it with all your heart and think you have help but it's all really you. So the truth is that it's all inner, though there is a lot of supernatural things in the world, there is however no proof of an omnipotent being. Though there is a concept that with enough will from enough people a spirit can be born but it definitely won't be omnipotent. So yeah, it's just how you view something. You weren't into the other thing and didn't believe it with all your heart but then something made you believe in christianity (either from widespread belief all around the world or another) which made it seem successful.

I believed these things. I devoted my life to it. It was all I read. All I did. So much that I had decided to go to the Himalayas and spend my life there meditating, trying to achieve self realization. You are making quite a few assumptions here. First you are assuming based on your presumptions that I did not have a genuine experience. Based on your presumptions (there is no God etc) you assume no one can have a genuine experience that is based on truth. Your problem going into this is going into it assuming that you are right and that I am wrong.

War of the Worldviews: Christianity vs. Naturalism  

[Samael KOT]

Garland-Green

Samael KOT

Your problem with the inner part of it is that you don't believe it was real. You believe in Christianity with all your heart (wrongfully)
The thing is that having a positive outlook spreads among your whole life and believing that someone exists can help it be so. It's all bout believing with all your heart, if you believe with all your heart that God exists and is looking after you, your life will go better because you believe it with all your heart and think you have help but it's all really you. So the truth is that it's all inner, though there is a lot of supernatural things in the world, there is however no proof of an omnipotent being. Though there is a concept that with enough will from enough people a spirit can be born but it definitely won't be omnipotent. So yeah, it's just how you view something. You weren't into the other thing and didn't believe it with all your heart but then something made you believe in christianity (either from widespread belief all around the world or another) which made it seem successful.

I believed these things. I devoted my life to it. It was all I read. All I did. So much that I had decided to go to the Himalayas and spend my life there meditating, trying to achieve self realization. You are making quite a few assumptions here. First you are assuming based on your presumptions that I did not have a genuine experience. Based on your presumptions (there is no God etc) you assume no one can have a genuine experience that is based on truth. Your problem going into this is going into it assuming that you are right and that I am wrong.

War of the Worldviews: Christianity vs. Naturalism

Doesn't mean your willpower was strong enough or you believed in it with all your heart. A person who just decides on a whim to do it has the potential to have better results than you with all that training.

Either way, psi balls and stuff are pretty easy and you work into new stuff, I don't understand how you haven't felt all that.
There are clear examples of it.

And that million dollar for proof thing is a scam, the guy even when seeing real stuff refuses and says it's fake, he has the power to do that in the rules, that way he gets publicity (his goal) and also not pay a million dollars. It's called marketing.
Also he screens people so he brings forward frauds to make his claim stronger.

So yeah, it's upon you to prove stuff not to assume everyone has the same mindset to blindly believe a religion that can be proven via other strategies.  

[Garland-Green]

Samael KOT

Garland-Green

Samael KOT

Your problem with the inner part of it is that you don't believe it was real. You believe in Christianity with all your heart (wrongfully)
The thing is that having a positive outlook spreads among your whole life and believing that someone exists can help it be so. It's all bout believing with all your heart, if you believe with all your heart that God exists and is looking after you, your life will go better because you believe it with all your heart and think you have help but it's all really you. So the truth is that it's all inner, though there is a lot of supernatural things in the world, there is however no proof of an omnipotent being. Though there is a concept that with enough will from enough people a spirit can be born but it definitely won't be omnipotent. So yeah, it's just how you view something. You weren't into the other thing and didn't believe it with all your heart but then something made you believe in christianity (either from widespread belief all around the world or another) which made it seem successful.

I believed these things. I devoted my life to it. It was all I read. All I did. So much that I had decided to go to the Himalayas and spend my life there meditating, trying to achieve self realization. You are making quite a few assumptions here. First you are assuming based on your presumptions that I did not have a genuine experience. Based on your presumptions (there is no God etc) you assume no one can have a genuine experience that is based on truth. Your problem going into this is going into it assuming that you are right and that I am wrong.

War of the Worldviews: Christianity vs. Naturalism

Doesn't mean your willpower was strong enough or you believed in it with all your heart. A person who just decides on a whim to do it has the potential to have better results than you with all that training.

Either way, psi balls and stuff are pretty easy and you work into new stuff, I don't understand how you haven't felt all that.
There are clear examples of it.

And that million dollar for proof thing is a scam, the guy even when seeing real stuff refuses and says it's fake, he has the power to do that in the rules, that way he gets publicity (his goal) and also not pay a million dollars. It's called marketing.
Also he screens people so he brings forward frauds to make his claim stronger.

So yeah, it's upon you to prove stuff not to assume everyone has the same mindset to blindly believe a religion that can be proven via other strategies.

You are again making assumptions based on your beliefs. How do you know I did not have enough will power? How do you know I was not determined enough? I don't believe you have powers to determine this unless you could read my mind.

It could be that among all your research, among all the things that spoke in favor of Christianity, and the truth of God that there was a seed of truth that you rejected because you were determined to based on your presumptions.
"What Jesus did resembled magic. Therefor it was magic, and illusion." Which is yet another assumption. You are assuming that because a thing appear to be similar to the other it is the same. It is red, so it is an apple. When it could be a balloon. Because you hold to that presumption it determines what you believe. It is blinder than my faith. At least I experienced something to make me believe.
You did not answer my question. What proof is good enough? Cities in the old testament? Names of kings; David etc found in excavations? Collaborating historical documents? What would it require for you to believe? Wouldn't it require that you were open to the possibility that it real? Do you feel that through your posts that you have showed me to have an open mind? That there is any point in debating with you except maybe to satisfy some need to express your ideas on your part?
I don't get the idea that you got into this wanting to hear what I say.
The proof is there. There is plenty of it both in archaeology, and philosophy.

The link I provided is not the million dollar thing. It will explain to you why you believe what you do, and why you reject the notion of God.  

[Samael KOT]

Garland-Green

Samael KOT

Garland-Green

Samael KOT

Your problem with the inner part of it is that you don't believe it was real. You believe in Christianity with all your heart (wrongfully)
The thing is that having a positive outlook spreads among your whole life and believing that someone exists can help it be so. It's all bout believing with all your heart, if you believe with all your heart that God exists and is looking after you, your life will go better because you believe it with all your heart and think you have help but it's all really you. So the truth is that it's all inner, though there is a lot of supernatural things in the world, there is however no proof of an omnipotent being. Though there is a concept that with enough will from enough people a spirit can be born but it definitely won't be omnipotent. So yeah, it's just how you view something. You weren't into the other thing and didn't believe it with all your heart but then something made you believe in christianity (either from widespread belief all around the world or another) which made it seem successful.

I believed these things. I devoted my life to it. It was all I read. All I did. So much that I had decided to go to the Himalayas and spend my life there meditating, trying to achieve self realization. You are making quite a few assumptions here. First you are assuming based on your presumptions that I did not have a genuine experience. Based on your presumptions (there is no God etc) you assume no one can have a genuine experience that is based on truth. Your problem going into this is going into it assuming that you are right and that I am wrong.

War of the Worldviews: Christianity vs. Naturalism

Doesn't mean your willpower was strong enough or you believed in it with all your heart. A person who just decides on a whim to do it has the potential to have better results than you with all that training.

Either way, psi balls and stuff are pretty easy and you work into new stuff, I don't understand how you haven't felt all that.
There are clear examples of it.

And that million dollar for proof thing is a scam, the guy even when seeing real stuff refuses and says it's fake, he has the power to do that in the rules, that way he gets publicity (his goal) and also not pay a million dollars. It's called marketing.
Also he screens people so he brings forward frauds to make his claim stronger.

So yeah, it's upon you to prove stuff not to assume everyone has the same mindset to blindly believe a religion that can be proven via other strategies.

You are again making assumptions based on your beliefs. How do you know I did not have enough will power? How do you know I was not determined enough? I don't believe you have powers to determine this unless you could read my mind.

It could be that among all your research, among all the things that spoke in favor of Christianity, and the truth of God that there was a seed of truth that you rejected because you were determined to based on your presumptions.
"What Jesus did resembled magic. Therefor it was magic, and illusion." Which is yet another assumption. You are assuming that because a thing appear to be similar to the other it is the same. It is red, so it is an apple. When it could be a balloon. Because you hold to that presumption it determines what you believe. It is blinder than my faith. At least I experienced something to make me believe.
You did not answer my question. What proof is good enough? Cities in the old testament? Names of kings; David etc found in excavations? Collaborating historical documents? What would it require for you to believe? Wouldn't it require that you were open to the possibility that it real? Do you feel that through your posts that you have showed me to have an open mind? That there is any point in debating with you except maybe to satisfy some need to express your ideas on your part?
I don't get the idea that you got into this wanting to hear what I say.
The proof is there. There is plenty of it both in archaeology, and philosophy.

The link I provided is not the million dollar thing. It will explain to you why you believe what you do, and why you reject the notion of God.

Because I have had much more success than you seem to have had and I didn't go to near that far of extremes as you did. Either that or you are making up all the stories to try to down the other beliefs and strengthen people's view of Christianity and you have always been a Christian. Either you fail at the stuff or you never even did it. Because if you didn't get to a satisfactory level, lol.

Also lol, unless you are in the last years of your life, you are far to impatient. "Lol I went to asia for a year and I didn't find enlightenment, ******** it I'm going to blindly believe in a religion that has little to no proof"

Also what he did was pretty much magick, the stuff he did that was impressive.

For example, praying is considering magick if it does a result. Going to beings for stuff is magick like gods and spirits to do stuff, along with doing stuff on your own and with nature.

Jesus existed, though a lot of his stories are kinda crap.

God is the one who is metaphorically on trial for existing.  

[Garland-Green]

Samael KOT

Garland-Green

Samael KOT

Garland-Green

Samael KOT

Your problem with the inner part of it is that you don't believe it was real. You believe in Christianity with all your heart (wrongfully)
The thing is that having a positive outlook spreads among your whole life and believing that someone exists can help it be so. It's all bout believing with all your heart, if you believe with all your heart that God exists and is looking after you, your life will go better because you believe it with all your heart and think you have help but it's all really you. So the truth is that it's all inner, though there is a lot of supernatural things in the world, there is however no proof of an omnipotent being. Though there is a concept that with enough will from enough people a spirit can be born but it definitely won't be omnipotent. So yeah, it's just how you view something. You weren't into the other thing and didn't believe it with all your heart but then something made you believe in christianity (either from widespread belief all around the world or another) which made it seem successful.

I believed these things. I devoted my life to it. It was all I read. All I did. So much that I had decided to go to the Himalayas and spend my life there meditating, trying to achieve self realization. You are making quite a few assumptions here. First you are assuming based on your presumptions that I did not have a genuine experience. Based on your presumptions (there is no God etc) you assume no one can have a genuine experience that is based on truth. Your problem going into this is going into it assuming that you are right and that I am wrong.

War of the Worldviews: Christianity vs. Naturalism

Doesn't mean your willpower was strong enough or you believed in it with all your heart. A person who just decides on a whim to do it has the potential to have better results than you with all that training.

Either way, psi balls and stuff are pretty easy and you work into new stuff, I don't understand how you haven't felt all that.
There are clear examples of it.

And that million dollar for proof thing is a scam, the guy even when seeing real stuff refuses and says it's fake, he has the power to do that in the rules, that way he gets publicity (his goal) and also not pay a million dollars. It's called marketing.
Also he screens people so he brings forward frauds to make his claim stronger.

So yeah, it's upon you to prove stuff not to assume everyone has the same mindset to blindly believe a religion that can be proven via other strategies.

You are again making assumptions based on your beliefs. How do you know I did not have enough will power? How do you know I was not determined enough? I don't believe you have powers to determine this unless you could read my mind.

It could be that among all your research, among all the things that spoke in favor of Christianity, and the truth of God that there was a seed of truth that you rejected because you were determined to based on your presumptions.
"What Jesus did resembled magic. Therefor it was magic, and illusion." Which is yet another assumption. You are assuming that because a thing appear to be similar to the other it is the same. It is red, so it is an apple. When it could be a balloon. Because you hold to that presumption it determines what you believe. It is blinder than my faith. At least I experienced something to make me believe.
You did not answer my question. What proof is good enough? Cities in the old testament? Names of kings; David etc found in excavations? Collaborating historical documents? What would it require for you to believe? Wouldn't it require that you were open to the possibility that it real? Do you feel that through your posts that you have showed me to have an open mind? That there is any point in debating with you except maybe to satisfy some need to express your ideas on your part?
I don't get the idea that you got into this wanting to hear what I say.
The proof is there. There is plenty of it both in archaeology, and philosophy.

The link I provided is not the million dollar thing. It will explain to you why you believe what you do, and why you reject the notion of God.

Because I have had much more success than you seem to have had and I didn't go to near that far of extremes as you did. Either that or you are making up all the stories to try to down the other beliefs and strengthen people's view of Christianity and you have always been a Christian. Either you fail at the stuff or you never even did it. Because if you didn't get to a satisfactory level, lol.

Also lol, unless you are in the last years of your life, you are far to impatient. "Lol I went to asia for a year and I didn't find enlightenment, ******** it I'm going to blindly believe in a religion that has little to no proof"

Also what he did was pretty much magick, the stuff he did that was impressive.

For example, praying is considering magick if it does a result. Going to beings for stuff is magick like gods and spirits to do stuff, along with doing stuff on your own and with nature.

Jesus existed, though a lot of his stories are kinda crap.

God is the one who is metaphorically on trial for existing.

Quote:

Because if you didn't get to a satisfactory level.

You are again assuming a lot. Could it be that you are biased towards Christianity, and Christians? Could that bias color your responses to what I am saying about myself? You have seen some magicians, seen some tricks (preformed?), and now you reject all evidence of a Creator.

Why are his stories crap? Because you have decided so? If Jesus existed, and the stories told about him are true, then he testifies to the truth of God. (Evidence indicates this; the change in the attitude of his disciples, their unwillingness to bow down to force. Being killed for what they beileved etc) We also have archaeological finds of the places mentioned in the new testament and characters mentioned.

Quote:

Also what he did was pretty much magick, the stuff he did that was impressive.

Please read the story of Moses and the magicians at the Pharaohs court. The devil can make himself into an angel of light. Deception here is the key to why you believe what you believe... As a Christian I can say that I was deceived. I was tricked to believe in self realization. Once you have been changed by believing in Jesus, lies stand out very clearly.

Quote:

Also lol, unless you are in the last years of your life, you are far to impatient. "Lol I went to asia for a year and I didn't find enlightenment, ******** it I'm going to blindly believe in a religion that has little to no proof

I did not go, but I intended to. God changed my purpose. You are denying the rationality of some of the greatest minds in history, by claiming that it is a myth.
I am going to provide you with some link. I know you most likely won't go to read them since it could disagree with your preconceptions about Christianity, but I am offering them to show you there is more than enough evidence for those who really want the truth, and not their own version of it. smile The problem is not that there is not enough evidence to believe in God. The problem is stubbornness, and unwillingness to believe. The Bible tells us that man suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. I did. Most people who reject God do, because deep down everyone know there is a God. It is written in peoples hearts. That is the real reason why you and I are debating God.

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/05/070508-herod-tomb.html
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/seven-churches-in-revelation.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWawVUZg3Es
http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/does-archeology-support-the-bible-a-look-at-the-evidence/
http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=23240923
http://www.equip.org/articles/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/  

[Samael KOT]

Garland-Green

Samael KOT

Garland-Green

Samael KOT

Garland-Green

I believed these things. I devoted my life to it. It was all I read. All I did. So much that I had decided to go to the Himalayas and spend my life there meditating, trying to achieve self realization. You are making quite a few assumptions here. First you are assuming based on your presumptions that I did not have a genuine experience. Based on your presumptions (there is no God etc) you assume no one can have a genuine experience that is based on truth. Your problem going into this is going into it assuming that you are right and that I am wrong.

War of the Worldviews: Christianity vs. Naturalism

Doesn't mean your willpower was strong enough or you believed in it with all your heart. A person who just decides on a whim to do it has the potential to have better results than you with all that training.

Either way, psi balls and stuff are pretty easy and you work into new stuff, I don't understand how you haven't felt all that.
There are clear examples of it.

And that million dollar for proof thing is a scam, the guy even when seeing real stuff refuses and says it's fake, he has the power to do that in the rules, that way he gets publicity (his goal) and also not pay a million dollars. It's called marketing.
Also he screens people so he brings forward frauds to make his claim stronger.

So yeah, it's upon you to prove stuff not to assume everyone has the same mindset to blindly believe a religion that can be proven via other strategies.

You are again making assumptions based on your beliefs. How do you know I did not have enough will power? How do you know I was not determined enough? I don't believe you have powers to determine this unless you could read my mind.

It could be that among all your research, among all the things that spoke in favor of Christianity, and the truth of God that there was a seed of truth that you rejected because you were determined to based on your presumptions.
"What Jesus did resembled magic. Therefor it was magic, and illusion." Which is yet another assumption. You are assuming that because a thing appear to be similar to the other it is the same. It is red, so it is an apple. When it could be a balloon. Because you hold to that presumption it determines what you believe. It is blinder than my faith. At least I experienced something to make me believe.
You did not answer my question. What proof is good enough? Cities in the old testament? Names of kings; David etc found in excavations? Collaborating historical documents? What would it require for you to believe? Wouldn't it require that you were open to the possibility that it real? Do you feel that through your posts that you have showed me to have an open mind? That there is any point in debating with you except maybe to satisfy some need to express your ideas on your part?
I don't get the idea that you got into this wanting to hear what I say.
The proof is there. There is plenty of it both in archaeology, and philosophy.

The link I provided is not the million dollar thing. It will explain to you why you believe what you do, and why you reject the notion of God.

Because I have had much more success than you seem to have had and I didn't go to near that far of extremes as you did. Either that or you are making up all the stories to try to down the other beliefs and strengthen people's view of Christianity and you have always been a Christian. Either you fail at the stuff or you never even did it. Because if you didn't get to a satisfactory level, lol.

Also lol, unless you are in the last years of your life, you are far to impatient. "Lol I went to asia for a year and I didn't find enlightenment, ******** it I'm going to blindly believe in a religion that has little to no proof"

Also what he did was pretty much magick, the stuff he did that was impressive.

For example, praying is considering magick if it does a result. Going to beings for stuff is magick like gods and spirits to do stuff, along with doing stuff on your own and with nature.

Jesus existed, though a lot of his stories are kinda crap.

God is the one who is metaphorically on trial for existing.

Quote:

Because if you didn't get to a satisfactory level.

You are again assuming a lot. Could it be that you are biased towards Christianity, and Christians? Could that bias color your responses to what I am saying about myself? You have seen some magicians, seen some tricks (preformed?), and now you reject all evidence of a Creator.

Why are his stories crap? Because you have decided so? If Jesus existed, and the stories told about him are true, then he testifies to the truth of God. (Evidence indicates this; the change in the attitude of his disciples, their unwillingness to bow down to force. Being killed for what they beileved etc) We also have archaeological finds of the places mentioned in the new testament and characters mentioned.

Quote:

Also what he did was pretty much magick, the stuff he did that was impressive.

Please read the story of Moses and the magicians at the Pharaohs court. The devil can make himself into an angel of light. Deception here is the key to why you believe what you believe... As a Christian I can say that I was deceived. I was tricked to believe in self realization. Once you have been changed by believing in Jesus, lies stand out very clearly.

Quote:

Also lol, unless you are in the last years of your life, you are far to impatient. "Lol I went to asia for a year and I didn't find enlightenment, ******** it I'm going to blindly believe in a religion that has little to no proof

I did not go, but I intended to. God changed my purpose. You are denying the rationality of some of the greatest minds in history, by claiming that it is a myth.
I am going to provide you with some link. I know you most likely won't go to read them since it could disagree with your preconceptions about Christianity, but I am offering them to show you there is more than enough evidence for those who really want the truth, and not their own version of it. smile The problem is not that there is not enough evidence to believe in God. The problem is stubbornness, and unwillingness to believe. The Bible tells us that man suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. I did. Most people who reject God do, because deep down everyone know there is a God. It is written in peoples hearts. That is the real reason why you and I are debating God.

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/05/070508-herod-tomb.html
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/seven-churches-in-revelation.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWawVUZg3Es
http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/does-archeology-support-the-bible-a-look-at-the-evidence/
http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=23240923
http://www.equip.org/articles/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/

I like how you are saying I'm bias yet you call magic just some tricks.

Either way, none of that stuff proves that God exists. Jesus existed but not God. And a lot of Jesus's stories were stolen from pre-established mythologies.

Are you seriously claiming self realization is the devil. Lol what a dumb ******** isn't a battle of debates but me at this point face palming at your theories. Seriously, so you believe that any sort of self ability is "the devil"

Don't you have a soldier funeral to protest or something?

You are one of the bad Christians it seems who blindly believe in it and all this other crap. None of the stuff you said came close to proving God. Just because characters existed and locations existed?

Mount Olympus existed, must mean Zeus exists right?  

[Garland-Green]

Samael KOT

Garland-Green

Samael KOT

Garland-Green

Samael KOT

Doesn't mean your willpower was strong enough or you believed in it with all your heart. A person who just decides on a whim to do it has the potential to have better results than you with all that training.

Either way, psi balls and stuff are pretty easy and you work into new stuff, I don't understand how you haven't felt all that.
There are clear examples of it.

And that million dollar for proof thing is a scam, the guy even when seeing real stuff refuses and says it's fake, he has the power to do that in the rules, that way he gets publicity (his goal) and also not pay a million dollars. It's called marketing.
Also he screens people so he brings forward frauds to make his claim stronger.

So yeah, it's upon you to prove stuff not to assume everyone has the same mindset to blindly believe a religion that can be proven via other strategies.

You are again making assumptions based on your beliefs. How do you know I did not have enough will power? How do you know I was not determined enough? I don't believe you have powers to determine this unless you could read my mind.

It could be that among all your research, among all the things that spoke in favor of Christianity, and the truth of God that there was a seed of truth that you rejected because you were determined to based on your presumptions.
"What Jesus did resembled magic. Therefor it was magic, and illusion." Which is yet another assumption. You are assuming that because a thing appear to be similar to the other it is the same. It is red, so it is an apple. When it could be a balloon. Because you hold to that presumption it determines what you believe. It is blinder than my faith. At least I experienced something to make me believe.
You did not answer my question. What proof is good enough? Cities in the old testament? Names of kings; David etc found in excavations? Collaborating historical documents? What would it require for you to believe? Wouldn't it require that you were open to the possibility that it real? Do you feel that through your posts that you have showed me to have an open mind? That there is any point in debating with you except maybe to satisfy some need to express your ideas on your part?
I don't get the idea that you got into this wanting to hear what I say.
The proof is there. There is plenty of it both in archaeology, and philosophy.

The link I provided is not the million dollar thing. It will explain to you why you believe what you do, and why you reject the notion of God.

Because I have had much more success than you seem to have had and I didn't go to near that far of extremes as you did. Either that or you are making up all the stories to try to down the other beliefs and strengthen people's view of Christianity and you have always been a Christian. Either you fail at the stuff or you never even did it. Because if you didn't get to a satisfactory level, lol.

Also lol, unless you are in the last years of your life, you are far to impatient. "Lol I went to asia for a year and I didn't find enlightenment, ******** it I'm going to blindly believe in a religion that has little to no proof"

Also what he did was pretty much magick, the stuff he did that was impressive.

For example, praying is considering magick if it does a result. Going to beings for stuff is magick like gods and spirits to do stuff, along with doing stuff on your own and with nature.

Jesus existed, though a lot of his stories are kinda crap.

God is the one who is metaphorically on trial for existing.

Quote:

Because if you didn't get to a satisfactory level.

You are again assuming a lot. Could it be that you are biased towards Christianity, and Christians? Could that bias color your responses to what I am saying about myself? You have seen some magicians, seen some tricks (preformed?), and now you reject all evidence of a Creator.

Why are his stories crap? Because you have decided so? If Jesus existed, and the stories told about him are true, then he testifies to the truth of God. (Evidence indicates this; the change in the attitude of his disciples, their unwillingness to bow down to force. Being killed for what they beileved etc) We also have archaeological finds of the places mentioned in the new testament and characters mentioned.

Quote:

Also what he did was pretty much magick, the stuff he did that was impressive.

Please read the story of Moses and the magicians at the Pharaohs court. The devil can make himself into an angel of light. Deception here is the key to why you believe what you believe... As a Christian I can say that I was deceived. I was tricked to believe in self realization. Once you have been changed by believing in Jesus, lies stand out very clearly.

Quote:

Also lol, unless you are in the last years of your life, you are far to impatient. "Lol I went to asia for a year and I didn't find enlightenment, ******** it I'm going to blindly believe in a religion that has little to no proof

I did not go, but I intended to. God changed my purpose. You are denying the rationality of some of the greatest minds in history, by claiming that it is a myth.
I am going to provide you with some link. I know you most likely won't go to read them since it could disagree with your preconceptions about Christianity, but I am offering them to show you there is more than enough evidence for those who really want the truth, and not their own version of it. smile The problem is not that there is not enough evidence to believe in God. The problem is stubbornness, and unwillingness to believe. The Bible tells us that man suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. I did. Most people who reject God do, because deep down everyone know there is a God. It is written in peoples hearts. That is the real reason why you and I are debating God.

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/05/070508-herod-tomb.html
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/seven-churches-in-revelation.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWawVUZg3Es
http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/does-archeology-support-the-bible-a-look-at-the-evidence/
http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=23240923
http://www.equip.org/articles/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/

I like how you are saying I'm bias yet you call magic just some tricks.

Either way, none of that stuff proves that God exists. Jesus existed but not God. And a lot of Jesus's stories were stolen from pre-established mythologies.

Are you seriously claiming self realization is the devil. Lol what a dumb ******** isn't a battle of debates but me at this point face palming at your theories. Seriously, so you believe that any sort of self ability is "the devil"

Don't you have a soldier funeral to protest or something?

You are one of the bad Christians it seems who blindly believe in it and all this other crap. None of the stuff you said came close to proving God. Just because characters existed and locations existed?

Mount Olympus existed, must mean Zeus exists right?

It proves the accuracy of the Bible, in doing so it proves the Bible being what it claims to be. Places, customs, people, cultures and scientific data which had not been accepted by the majority of the world when these things occurred can be found in the Bible. Compared to other religious books it is far superior in its accuracy, also its portrayal of characters.
Proving that locations and characters existed, and that they held the offices the Bible claim goes to show credibility and possibility of the stories told.
Finding evidence for a Semitic people living in Egypt. Evidence of an Exodus.
Scarabs from the era of the exodus found in Israel. Seals and tombs of a number of the people mentioned in the Old testament. Temple equipment designed under God's instruction. Cultures mentioned in the Old Testament being rejected as having been real simply because they are found in the Bible, have been discovered with the Kings described in the Bible and so on.

Also, When studying the science of the ancient world, one is more apt to be impressed with its ignorance than to admire its accuracy. However, the Bible offers a definite exception to this rule. The scriptures are replete with statements suggesting scientific knowledge which predates the corresponding discoveries of secular science. Given that Bible writers were not scientists, and given that the scientific information at their disposal was generally misleading, the accuracy of the Bible can only be attributed to the inspiration of God (“Examples of Scientific Accuracy in the bible" David Pyles). Let me begin by listing a few of these Biblical foreshadows.

The fact that the earth is of spherical shape is generally considered to be recent knowledge. However, Isaiah 40:22 spoke of the circle of the earth approximately 750 years before Christ. Other statements in the Bible also indicate that God revealed this truth long ago. For example, David said that God has removed our transgression from us as far as the east is from the west (Ps 103:12). On a spherical surface, east and west are infinitely separated in the sense that one can travel indefinitely in either direction without ever attaining the other. However, Solomon described the wind as blowing in circuits, first towards the south and then turning toward the north. North and south are not infinitely separated as east and west, because a southward traveler on a spherical surface will be heading north after crossing the South Pole (David Pyles).

Thirdly consider this: What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. Matthew Maury (1806-1873) is commonly known as the father of oceanography. He was among the first to discover and chart systematic ocean currents. Maury claimed that his research was inspired by Ps 8:4-8 (David Pyles).

Fourthly, in Leviticus 17:11 it says that the “life of the flesh is in the blood" (KJV). That’s very interesting because science didn’t know about the properties of blood until centuries after Moses received the Law from God on Mount Sinai. Every ancient Jew was taught the validity of God’s Word for practical living as well as its spiritual value. Every Jew was taught that Leviticus 17:11 referred to the life of living creatures. If one drained the blood out of his sacrificial lamb, the lamb died; therefore, the blood equaled life. Here again, it was centuries after this Biblical knowledge that blood was discovered by means of science to circulate throughout the human body.

Fifthly, it wasn’t until the time of Pasteur that germs were discovered as the culprit to spoiling French wine. Pasture eliminated the microbes by “pasteurizing" the wine. The process is still used today with dairy products. The Old Testament proscribed certain meats as being unclean for human consumption. Today we know that many of these banned meats, if not properly prepared and fully cooked, can sicken or cause death in humans because of bad bacteria.

Little proof you say? I say sufficient proof. It is pretty solid. Evidence you can touch and see at the Smithsonian. As I said in an earlier post; The error is not with the proof that could be presented, but with your reasoning.

I do understand that to some this is not enough (they choose to see only the cons). With free will and all God would be imposing himself on us. It would be taking away our free will if all the evidence that speaks for the existence of God was of such a nature that we have no choice.

Quote:

Mount Olympus existed, must mean Zeus exists right?

If you compare the stories here you would see why one is human fabrication (where the gods have human aspects and are fallible, not making them gods, but humans etc), and the other show the Creator, infallible, all knowing etc. One is the fabrication of the human mind, the other is not.

I am a bad Christian for telling you the truth. You are insulted because I am striking a nerve, rejecting the ideals you hold to be true. Usually belittling, and name calling your competition is a sign you have lost, and have nothing more sensible to say, and in stead of addressing things to the point you chose to be vague;
"Either way, none of that stuff proves that God exists." "And a lot of Jesus's stories were stolen from pre-established mythologies" Making it impossible for me to comment as it is has no substance, or references to pre-established mythologies as you claim. Unless you actually references to said mythologies then it is only your personal view, and it is impossible for me to address it.

Quote:

Are you seriously claiming self realization is the devil. Lol what a dumb ******** isn't a battle of debates but me at this point face palming at your theories. Seriously, so you believe that any sort of self ability is "the devil"

Self-realization is an expression used in psychology, spirituality and Eastern religions. The basic premise of self-realization is that there exists an authentic self which has to be discovered by psychological or spiritual self-striving. Self-realization can be a gradual or instantaneous phenomena depending on the school of thought but in all cases it involves extensive preparation of mind and emotions to recognize self-realization when it occurs. Self-realization is a maturing of the ego or personality to accept its own evanescence and thus allow space for the true Self to reveal itself.

I am not claiming self realization is the devil, but that it is of the devil. Nor am I claiming that any ability that you have is of the devil, however some can be. Two very different claims. smile What do I mean with that? I mean that in man is nothing good, or a god to be realized, speaking of spirituality and Eastern religions, not so much psychology. When people attempt this they are basically falling for the age old trickery of the serpent in the garden, when he said "if you do this you will be like gods." All it does is separate you from God.

Quote:

I like how you are saying I'm bias yet you call magic just some tricks

.Even magicians call it tricks. smile

Quote:

Don't you have a soldier funeral to protest or something?

Again with your assumptions. All bad Christians (Christians who believe in Jesus and God, that believe the Bible to be true?) do that right? =/ Did you know that there are Christians outside of America?  

[Samael KOT]

You are mixing magic and magick.

Magick is real stuff
Magic are parlor tricks

Also btw, the science that is demonstrated by the egyptians are FAR superior to that which you speak.
Stongehenge as well. Get over it, it's all over the place and the egyptians believed in a pantheon of gods.

The human forms are simply to walk among the people in greek mythology, they are described as having transformations. Wouldn't that be the same as "God"
Also the bible saying God is omnipotent doesn't mean anything, that's like a kid thinking he's stronger than everyone.

If an omnipresent being exists, it's not a conscious being, I see God as more of a representation of the universe, so don't claim stuff like "God will protect us" and "God is almighty"

God if anything is the energy that makes up everything, symbolism. Nott to mention isn't Christianity just a concept. Think of it this way, there are stuff besides the stuff listed in the bible and some of that stuff is real, though that stuff is dramatized in the bible.

You do realize if your "God" exists, he essentially is a sadist who enjoys ******** with people's lives and not helping anyone ever. Considering a lot of the "incurable diseases" that were in history are not curable, for example the bubonic plague didn't have a cure back then but now it does, that's science. And we'll have cures for stuff we don't have now later on. Realize that our progression is slow because we must relearn what the dead have learned and built upon. Any conscious being which has intelligence, supernatural or not, who has a longer life than humans, will undoubtedly learn more.

We live so and so years and then the next generation learn stuff that we already learned to get to our level or might not even ever get to that level. Imagine how far an immortal Einstein would get?

So yeah, curing diseases isn't anything important, definitely not for proof for an omnipotent being.

Nothing in the bible that was scientifically proven EVER proved the existance of God.

Like I said, Jesus existed, at the very most he was skilled in kinetics or magick, very skilled, at the very least his stories were propagated and he was decent at that stuff or didn't know that stuff.

Tell me the proof that God doesn't exist and a Satan like figure isn't running this whole Christianity concept as a scam and isn't getting many followers. What has Christianity done? It has created wars, etc etc. Is he doing much helping? No
If he's omniscience then wouldn't it be kinda silly that he saw what would happen with humans and the "Fallen Angels" and would do nothing about it, just letting stuff get worse.

I don't believe that s**t at all, but if it did exist, I wouldn't want to worship such a being. Nothing proves he's omnipotent, just hyped up words.

Hydrogen was created by the pyramids.

Stonehenge was moved from miles away and stacked in a way that if I recall correctly, would still be impossible even by modern technology. Also you do realize that stonehenge has much more than it's creation.

"Stonehenge was built as a religious structure, and as the religion involved had a lot to do with their calendar, the structure reflected calendar attributes. The blocks were built so that on various calendar days, the sun would shine precisely from the outer ring openings to the central point on main days, such as equinoxes and solstices.
So on an equinox, say March 21st at sunrise, if you were standing in the middle of the circle, the sun would appear exactly in the middle of one of the openings. Same with Dec 21, etc etc. Basically , it worked like a sun calendar."

"Once the design was conceived the architectural plan was set up so that the stones sat astride the solar axis of midwinter and midsummer, and that is the only alignment to be found within the structure. Anyone who cares to think about how it was achieved will realize that placing the mirrored arrays either side of this axis was no mean feat of surveying - try and work out how they laid out a thirty-sided polygon ( the 30 uprights) so that a 'baseline' passed exactly between the stones. It took a lot care and forethought. Note that to do this exercise it's important to remember that the prehistoric surveyors set the centers of each inner face of the stones (regardless of width) against precise markers. Also work out how they set out the 10 uprights of the Trilithons and positioned the 4 'Station Stones' to frame the exact points of two opposing facets of an octagon. Not to mention they accurately laid out the large outer circle of 56 holes long before the central structure was build, think on that, if they could lay out 56 - they could lay out a regular heptagon"

Blood WAS ALWAYS paired with death. When someone gets cut and dies, they bleed, they are losing their life. Even if what you said was true, yeah, that. I think you are underestimating people in the past, they weren't idiots. For example, Columbus was the idiot and everyone knew the world was round, Columbus died thinking he landed in China and the others knew it was a new land. When you look at the coast, you can see a bend in the earth. Also on mountains and so forth.

And knowing cultures existed doesn't mean anything. That's just a matter of the people who wrote it knowing about different cultures and going around.
There are STILL cultures we don't know about.

So yeah, what the "bible" did was far from impressive compared to those and MANY more. Lol at your "blood = life, omg big conspiracy, God exists" idea.

There might be "A god" that backed Christianity but he doesn't stand out at all with the exception of the popularity.

Heck, the chinese had way more impressive discoveries before.
I wouldn't be surprised if the people who wrote the bible were finding this stuff in China.
Who were very advanced at that time just as we are now. Realize Europe was pretty dumb up till the Renaissance, with a exception of a few notable people.

Also I like how you claim "lol it's not that there isn't proof" and then start insulting me.
Do you typically insult people to try to sound like you are the intelligent one in the conversation, is that how you plan on trying to win this debate?

Fyi:
Stongehenge: BC 2600
Great Pyramid of Egypt: BC 2584


With your logic, Egyptian gods are stronger than Christian God, and they are definitely real.
~~~~~~~~~~~~`
The "Free will so he won't intervene" thing seems like a convenient way to hold a lie that doesn't exist.
It's either he doesn't exist or he doesn't give a s**t, it has nothing to do with "free will"

We don't have free will, we actually do follow our genetics and instincts.
There is no such thing as free will truly, psychology disproves that along with biology.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Onto the whole "I didn't give proof"

1) A lot of the stuff Jesus preached was in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the time was right for Jesus to find that and to preach it's contents.
That would be when "he went into the wilderness"

2) Christianity spread and it took from other beliefs, the canonized saints consisted of the catholic interpretation of Celtic Gods
2b) Like the concept of demons, a lot of established gods that predated Christianity were made into Gods (pretty much to downplay them) like Beezlebub. He was a Semitic deity worshipped in the city of Ekron.
Also the demon concept seems to be taken from Greek and Celtic mythology.
The Fomors of Celtic mythology are pretty much what demons can be described as.
And daemon was a greek word to describe spirits like river gods and nature spirits. All of this predated

3) The Bible focused mainly around Egypt, they took stuff from it here and there. For example, it would be easier to get followers if it didn't just rape the concepts that they already believe and you put some stuff in there from the potential followers, and the influence of being around Egypt with such heavy religious acts.

Also realize that someone who created a species can create them in their own image. Someone who looks like a human might just be what the human model is based off of. For example in celetic mythology, the Dagda was the model for human men and other gods because he was very good and respected.
The Dagda was the king of the celtic gods. God sounds like a copy paste of him (plus some false hyped omnipotent hax)
Heck for all you know you could be connecting with The Dagda and he is what the christians worship.
The gods in celtic mythology come after the fomors if I remember correctly, and one guy was named Lugh, well Lugh was born to a fomor princess/queen or something and Cian.

Anyway Jesus doing the miracles and everything simply to prove he's the "son of god" seems a bit like Lugh trying to prove his worth when he first is starting out as a young man.

Take a look at the religions in europe and the surrounding areas, you'll find many things that Christianity copied

Jesus existed but the fact that the people and locations existed doesn't mean jesus was growing wings and pissing rainbows nor does it prove God exists.
A lot of the stories are copied from other areas.  

[Garland-Green]

Samael KOT

You are mixing magic and magick.

Magick is real stuff
Magic are parlor tricks

Also btw, the science that is demonstrated by the egyptians are FAR superior to that which you speak.
Stongehenge as well. Get over it, it's all over the place and the egyptians believed in a pantheon of gods.

The human forms are simply to walk among the people in greek mythology, they are described as having transformations. Wouldn't that be the same as "God"
Also the bible saying God is omnipotent doesn't mean anything, that's like a kid thinking he's stronger than everyone.

If an omnipresent being exists, it's not a conscious being, I see God as more of a representation of the universe, so don't claim stuff like "God will protect us" and "God is almighty"

God if anything is the energy that makes up everything, symbolism. Nott to mention isn't Christianity just a concept. Think of it this way, there are stuff besides the stuff listed in the bible and some of that stuff is real, though that stuff is dramatized in the bible.

You do realize if your "God" exists, he essentially is a sadist who enjoys ******** with people's lives and not helping anyone ever. Considering a lot of the "incurable diseases" that were in history are not curable, for example the bubonic plague didn't have a cure back then but now it does, that's science. And we'll have cures for stuff we don't have now later on. Realize that our progression is slow because we must relearn what the dead have learned and built upon. Any conscious being which has intelligence, supernatural or not, who has a longer life than humans, will undoubtedly learn more.

We live so and so years and then the next generation learn stuff that we already learned to get to our level or might not even ever get to that level. Imagine how far an immortal Einstein would get?

So yeah, curing diseases isn't anything important, definitely not for proof for an omnipotent being.

Nothing in the bible that was scientifically proven EVER proved the existance of God.

Like I said, Jesus existed, at the very most he was skilled in kinetics or magick, very skilled, at the very least his stories were propagated and he was decent at that stuff or didn't know that stuff.

Tell me the proof that God doesn't exist and a Satan like figure isn't running this whole Christianity concept as a scam and isn't getting many followers. What has Christianity done? It has created wars, etc etc. Is he doing much helping? No
If he's omniscience then wouldn't it be kinda silly that he saw what would happen with humans and the "Fallen Angels" and would do nothing about it, just letting stuff get worse.

I don't believe that s**t at all, but if it did exist, I wouldn't want to worship such a being. Nothing proves he's omnipotent, just hyped up words.

Hydrogen was created by the pyramids.

Stonehenge was moved from miles away and stacked in a way that if I recall correctly, would still be impossible even by modern technology. Also you do realize that stonehenge has much more than it's creation.

"Stonehenge was built as a religious structure, and as the religion involved had a lot to do with their calendar, the structure reflected calendar attributes. The blocks were built so that on various calendar days, the sun would shine precisely from the outer ring openings to the central point on main days, such as equinoxes and solstices.
So on an equinox, say March 21st at sunrise, if you were standing in the middle of the circle, the sun would appear exactly in the middle of one of the openings. Same with Dec 21, etc etc. Basically , it worked like a sun calendar."

"Once the design was conceived the architectural plan was set up so that the stones sat astride the solar axis of midwinter and midsummer, and that is the only alignment to be found within the structure. Anyone who cares to think about how it was achieved will realize that placing the mirrored arrays either side of this axis was no mean feat of surveying - try and work out how they laid out a thirty-sided polygon ( the 30 uprights) so that a 'baseline' passed exactly between the stones. It took a lot care and forethought. Note that to do this exercise it's important to remember that the prehistoric surveyors set the centers of each inner face of the stones (regardless of width) against precise markers. Also work out how they set out the 10 uprights of the Trilithons and positioned the 4 'Station Stones' to frame the exact points of two opposing facets of an octagon. Not to mention they accurately laid out the large outer circle of 56 holes long before the central structure was build, think on that, if they could lay out 56 - they could lay out a regular heptagon"

Blood WAS ALWAYS paired with death. When someone gets cut and dies, they bleed, they are losing their life. Even if what you said was true, yeah, that. I think you are underestimating people in the past, they weren't idiots. For example, Columbus was the idiot and everyone knew the world was round, Columbus died thinking he landed in China and the others knew it was a new land. When you look at the coast, you can see a bend in the earth. Also on mountains and so forth.

And knowing cultures existed doesn't mean anything. That's just a matter of the people who wrote it knowing about different cultures and going around.
There are STILL cultures we don't know about.

So yeah, what the "bible" did was far from impressive compared to those and MANY more. Lol at your "blood = life, omg big conspiracy, God exists" idea.

There might be "A god" that backed Christianity but he doesn't stand out at all with the exception of the popularity.

Heck, the chinese had way more impressive discoveries before.
I wouldn't be surprised if the people who wrote the bible were finding this stuff in China.
Who were very advanced at that time just as we are now. Realize Europe was pretty dumb up till the Renaissance, with a exception of a few notable people.

Also I like how you claim "lol it's not that there isn't proof" and then start insulting me.
Do you typically insult people to try to sound like you are the intelligent one in the conversation, is that how you plan on trying to win this debate?

Fyi:
Stongehenge: BC 2600
Great Pyramid of Egypt: BC 2584


With your logic, Egyptian gods are stronger than Christian God, and they are definitely real.
~~~~~~~~~~~~`
The "Free will so he won't intervene" thing seems like a convenient way to hold a lie that doesn't exist.
It's either he doesn't exist or he doesn't give a s**t, it has nothing to do with "free will"

We don't have free will, we actually do follow our genetics and instincts.
There is no such thing as free will truly, psychology disproves that along with biology.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Onto the whole "I didn't give proof"

1) A lot of the stuff Jesus preached was in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the time was right for Jesus to find that and to preach it's contents.
That would be when "he went into the wilderness"

2) Christianity spread and it took from other beliefs, the canonized saints consisted of the catholic interpretation of Celtic Gods
2b) Like the concept of demons, a lot of established gods that predated Christianity were made into Gods (pretty much to downplay them) like Beezlebub. He was a Semitic deity worshipped in the city of Ekron.
Also the demon concept seems to be taken from Greek and Celtic mythology.
The Fomors of Celtic mythology are pretty much what demons can be described as.
And daemon was a greek word to describe spirits like river gods and nature spirits. All of this predated

3) The Bible focused mainly around Egypt, they took stuff from it here and there. For example, it would be easier to get followers if it didn't just rape the concepts that they already believe and you put some stuff in there from the potential followers, and the influence of being around Egypt with such heavy religious acts.

Also realize that someone who created a species can create them in their own image. Someone who looks like a human might just be what the human model is based off of. For example in celetic mythology, the Dagda was the model for human men and other gods because he was very good and respected.
The Dagda was the king of the celtic gods. God sounds like a copy paste of him (plus some false hyped omnipotent hax)
Heck for all you know you could be connecting with The Dagda and he is what the christians worship.
The gods in celtic mythology come after the fomors if I remember correctly, and one guy was named Lugh, well Lugh was born to a fomor princess/queen or something and Cian.

Anyway Jesus doing the miracles and everything simply to prove he's the "son of god" seems a bit like Lugh trying to prove his worth when he first is starting out as a young man.

Take a look at the religions in europe and the surrounding areas, you'll find many things that Christianity copied

Jesus existed but the fact that the people and locations existed doesn't mean jesus was growing wings and pissing rainbows nor does it prove God exists.
A lot of the stories are copied from other areas.

Quote:

You are mixing magic and magick.

Magick is real stuff
Magic are parlor tricks

Factual examples?

Quote:

Also btw, the science that is demonstrated by the egyptians are FAR superior to that which you speak.
Stongehenge as well. Get over it, it's all over the place and the egyptians believed in a pantheon of gods.

Examples of the science?

Quote:

The human forms are simply to walk among the people in greek mythology, they are described as having transformations. Wouldn't that be the same as "God"
Also the bible saying God is omnipotent doesn't mean anything, that's like a kid thinking he's stronger than everyone.

In greek mythology the world was carried on the back of atlas. In the Bible it is described as being suspended in nothing. Showing the superiority of one over the other in dealing with the facts. One comes from One who have observed it, the other comes from the human mind. When other religions taught that the world was on the back of a giant tortoise, the Bible (God's word) showed how it actually is before it was testable to man. In law I think you call that evidence in favor. God can claim that because his claims are backed up.

Quote:

You do realize if your "God" exists, he essentially is a sadist who enjoys ******** with people's live

Be honest! In Christianity it is never claimed that God enjoys our suffering (quite the opposite), or that diseases are put here because of anything but mans fall. You do realize that this is your own interpretation (personal opinion) of Christianity, and not what Christianity says of itself?

Quote:

God if anything is the energy that makes up everything, symbolism. Nott to mention isn't Christianity just a concept. Think of it this way, there are stuff besides the stuff listed in the bible and some of that stuff is real, though that stuff is dramatized in the bible.

Then why is there evil in the world? Why is there death and suffering? If God was everything, and everything is God why would he not be the best he can be?`Why doesn't he come to the full expression of himself in every single being? Examples of stuff dramatized?

Quote:

So yeah, curing diseases isn't anything important, definitely not for proof for an omnipotent being.

Nothing in the bible that was scientifically proven EVER proved the existance of God.

Evidence in favor.Tell that to someone with Aids. Tell them that curing diseases is nothing important. Everyone wants to stay healthy. The Old testament people had no way of knowing that germs caused death, and diseases yet they took precautions to avoid germs by instructions of God.

Quote:

Like I said, Jesus existed, at the very most he was skilled in kinetics or magick, very skilled, at the very least his stories were propagated and he was decent at that stuff or didn't know that stuff.

Personal opinion, not based on factual evidence.

Quote:

If he's omniscience then wouldn't it be kinda silly that he saw what would happen with humans and the "Fallen Angels" and would do nothing about it, just letting stuff get worse.

Actually he did. Through Jesus he provided a way out. Not because he had to, but because he wanted to. He allows rebellion up to a point.

Quote:

What has Christianity done? It has created wars, etc etc. Is he doing much helping? No

How do you know he has not helped? How do you know he has not put the right person in the right place at the right time? People are wicked. They will even use the truth for own personal gain. It is not Christianity that have created wars, but people.

Quote:

I don't believe that s**t at all, but if it did exist, I wouldn't want to worship such a being. Nothing proves he's omnipotent, just hyped up words.

I have mentioned things to prove that he does exist, and that he is who he claims to be. Like I said earlier the problem is not with evidence...  

[Garland-Green]

Samael KOT

~~~~~~~~~~~~`
The "Free will so he won't intervene" thing seems like a convenient way to hold a lie that doesn't exist.
It's either he doesn't exist or he doesn't give a s**t, it has nothing to do with "free will"

We don't have free will, we actually do follow our genetics and instincts.
There is no such thing as free will truly, psychology disproves that along with biology.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Genetic determinism gains additional support and wider influence from the popular notion that, since we can now establish a scientific connection between one's genes and one's actual and/or potential physical traits (hair and eye colour, disease susceptibility, etc), then we should use this knowledge to restructure the genetic make-up of certain individuals. In other words, genetic determinism does not just show us how we are victims of our genes; it also shows us how we can use the knowledge of our genes in order to change them and, therefore, change ourselves. This understanding of GENETICS and human freedom, or unfreedom as it were, illustrates the extent to which genetic determinists place the influence of nature (biology and genetics) over nurture (society and family). The fundamental premises of genetic determinism, therefore, come to be that:

We are victims of our genes and have no ultimate freedom, and
With proper knowledge, we can take charge of our genes so that we are no longer their victim, but rather, are their architect. This premise has been termed "Promethean determinism," meaning that with the proper knowledge we can take charge of our genetic and, therefore, moral/ behavioural makeup.
Though a fascinating and long-debated theory, determinism raises serious difficulties regarding the nature of human knowledge and its bearing on our understanding of morality. For example, if one adheres to the idea of determinism and believes that one's life is simply the mechanical and unchangeable outplay of forces beyond one's control, then how does this affect one's relationship to the world and other people. Further questions arise: Does adherence to determinism not lead one into a sense of meaninglessness and impotence regarding one's fate and actions? Does determinism not also lead one into the belief that whatever one does is morally acceptable, by virtue of the fact that whatever one does is already pre-determined, and therefore, meant to be?

If determinism is in fact true, then our whole conception of morality is a pointless illusion. Since everything in existence is the result of necessary and pre-determined causes, then even something like murder can be considered normal. Here, determinism fails to take into account human freedom and choice. The majority of humans would choose not to be killed, just as most humans would choose not to kill another human. Determinists can claim that our choice to be killed or not to kill is itself already a determined effect, but this is only of theoretical interest since the issue of one's life or death is of extreme existential significance. In other words, in relation to issues of morality, determinism is an interesting theory, but in practice it is quite untenable. In essence, the acceptance of determinism makes one into a mere thing, a mechanical and non-autonomous entity without the power to deliberate or change one's direction in life.

Afterthought added Sunday 29th of December 2013:
Why We Believe While Others Reject

Quote:

1) A lot of the stuff Jesus preached was in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the time was right for Jesus to find that and to preach it's contents.
That would be when "he went into the wilderness"

The Dead Sea Scrolls contain the same scripture the Jewish people had.
He wouldn't have to go into the wilderness to read them, it would simply have been enough for him to visit the temple.

Until 1947, scholars had only the clay tablets of Babylon and the Egyptian papyri to help them understand background information on the Bible, since no ancient Old Testament manuscripts were known to have survived. However, all this changed with the discovery of over 800 papyrus and parchment texts in caves along the northwest corner of the Dead Sea. These scrolls gave the world manuscripts of Old Testament books 1,000 years older than any previously in existence.
As the importance of the find was realized, the world waited to find out if the scrolls would prove that the Bible had been handed down and translated accurately through the generations. The answer is a resounding yes.

Regarding the faithful transcription of biblical manuscripts by the Jewish scribes, Jewish historian Flavius Josephus said the following:

We have given practical proof of our reverence for our own Scriptures. For, although such long ages have now passed, no one has ventured either to add, or to remove, or to alter a syllable; and it is an instinct with every Jew from the day of his birth to regard them as the decrees of God, to abide by them, and, if need be, cheerfully to die for them.

Time and again ere now, the sight has been witnessed of prisoners enduring tortures and death in every form in the theaters, rather than utter a single word against the Laws and the allied documents.

The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm that from the ninth centuries A.D., the Jewish scribal copying of the Old Testament Scriptures was accomplished with remarkably few errors. With the exception of minute copying errors here and there, the Dead Sea manuscripts exhibited virtually identical readings to their counterparts of the ninth century. They proved that the many scholars who expressed doubts concerning the accuracy of the Massoretic text were unfounded.

John Allegro, not a Christian sympathizer, said this of the discovery:

Excitement had run high among scholars when it became known in 1948 that a cave near the Dead Sea had produced pre-Massoretic texts of the Bible. Was it possible that we were at last going to see traditions differing seriously from the standard text, which would throw some important light on this hazy period of variant traditions? In some quarters the question was raised with some apprehension, especially when news-hungry journalists began to talk about changing the whole Bible in view of the latest discoveries, but closer examination showed that, on the whole, the differences shown by the first Isaiah scroll were of little account, and could often be explained on the basis of scribal errors, or differing orthography, syntax, or grammatical form.

Millar Burrows, a scholar of exceptional stature reveals his attitude toward the Dead Sea Scrolls:

It is quite true that as a liberal Protestant I do not share all the beliefs of my more conservative brethren. It is my considered conclusion, however, that if one will go through any of the historic statements of the Christian faith he will find nothing that has been or can be disproved by the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 11 caves on the upper northwest shore of the Dead Sea. The area is 13 miles east of Jerusalem, and is -1300 ft. below sea level (Jerusalem is +2400 ft. above sea level).

The Isaiah Scroll is the oldest complete manuscript. of a Hebrew scripture yet discovered and was found in Cave 1 at Qumran in 1947 and purchased by the Syrian Orthodox archbishop of Jerusalem. The Isaiah scroll was acquired by Israel in 1954 and has been the central exhibit in Jerusalem's Shrine of the Book since 1965.

In all, scholars have identified the remains of about 825 to 870 separate scrolls.

Only Caves 1 and 11 have produced relatively intact manuscripts. Discovered in 1952, Cave 4 produced the largest find. About 15,000 fragments from more than 500 manuscripts were found.

Fragments of every book of the Hebrew canon (Old Testament) have been discovered except for the book of Esther.

There are now identified among the scrolls, 19 copies of the Book of Isaiah, 25 copies of Deuteronomy and 30 copies of the Psalms .

Also found with the scrolls were nonbiblical writings along the order of commentaries on the OT, paraphrases that expand on the Law, rule books of the community, war conduct, thanksgiving psalms, hymnic compositions, benedictions, liturgical texts, and sapiential (wisdom) writings.

The Scrolls appear to be the library of a Jewish sect. The library was hidden away in caves around the outbreak of the First Jewish Revolt (A.D. 66-70) as the Roman army advanced against the rebel Jews.

Near the caves are the ancient ruins of Qumran. They were excavated in the early 1950's and appear to be connected with the scrolls.

The most commonly held belief is that the Dead Sea Scrolls were written by the Essenes during the period from about 200 B.C. to 68 C.E./A.D. The Essenes are mentioned by Josephus and in a few other sources, but not in the New testament. The Essenes were a strict Torah observant, Messianic, apocalyptic, baptist, wilderness, new covenant Jewish sect. They were led by a priest they called the "Teacher of Righteousness," who was opposed and possibly killed by the establishment priesthood in Jerusalem.

The enemies of the Qumran community were called the "Sons of Darkness"; they called themselves the "Sons of Light," "the poor," and members of "the Way." They thought of themselves as "the holy ones," who lived in "the house of holiness," because "the Holy Spirit" dwelt with them.

The last words of Joseph, Judah, Levi, Naphtali, and Amram (the father of Moses) are written down in the Scrolls.

One of the most curious scrolls is the Copper Scroll. Discovered in Cave 3, this scroll records a list of 64 underground hiding places throughout the land of Israel. The deposits are to contain certain amounts of gold, silver, aromatics, and manuscripts. These are believed to be treasures from the Temple at Jerusalem, that were hidden away for safekeeping.

The Temple Scroll, found in Cave 11, is the longest scroll. Its present total length is 26.7 feet (8.148 meters). The overall length of the scroll must have been over 28 feet (8.75m).

The scrolls contain previously unknown stories about biblical figures such as Enoch, Abraham, and Noah. The story of Abraham includes an explanation why God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac.