That old RAW debate.

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

I use to think that, as raw became more popular, eventually vets would come to accept it. Much like the way vets use to push dry for cats, and lately more and more are aware of the importance of moisture in a diet. It takes some time for things to change because it needs to change in the schools first. I really thought/hoped that soon there would be more studies and more vets would get on board. However, this does not seem to be the case. In fact, there is a movement against raw now. As vets are no longer surprised to hear clients feeding raw, as vets now know about all the pro's, they've (and by they, I imagine it originates with corporations like Hills teaching this to vets and techs who really do believe it) have devised a strong case against raw.

#1. It's not complete balanced. Granted, as everyone who makes their own raw knows balance over time, there is of course room for mistakes. There is the potential for deficiencies. Which is where commercial raw comes in. It takes out all the work and calculating and claims to be complete and balanced. The problem is, many are not. False claims about meeting aafco guidelines are everywhere. Not that aafco is a great standard, but if you can't even meet that, well, you might wind up with say, a food where the calcium and phosphorus ratio is actually inverted and dogs develop bone disease. A scary thought. But the rep who presented this to me claimed that of all the products she tested, NONE met aafco, however there is the Nature's Variety which follows aafco.

#2. You WANT to denature proteins. I thought this was a compelling argument as well. That you do not absorb whole proteins, a protein must be denatured to be absorbed, which is essentially what happens the moment in reaches your stomach acid. So she claimed that cooking actually rendered the food more digestible, and the whole fact of destroying nutrients doesn't matter since they add in vitamin supplements.

#3. Animals shed salmonela for their entire lives even months-years after you stop feeding raw, and therefor anyone planning on having children is putting their future child at risk. I do NOT know where this originates from and would love to know if it is true. One thing I heard not too long after, was that salmonella was discovered to be a normal microbiota in healthy dogs. Meaning dogs NOT fed raw natually have salmonella in their G.I. This might explain where this theory comes from.

I recall there was a few other arguments but these were the real heavy hitters.

The reason I'm bring this up now is because. I work at a clinic, where raw is extremely frowned upon. There was a vet working there who fed raw, and I was excited to work with her and possible ask her about it. But she no longer works there, and I wonder if they fired her because of it. And if they will do the same to me if they ever discover my secret. I think about how I can do the job that I've spent 3yrs in school for, if it means giving up everything I believe about nutrition, or how hard it may be to find a clinic where I fit in. Will I have to choose between a clinic where I can work as a physiotherapist or one that doesn't shun my choice of dog food.

Also, I put Cowboy BACK on raw. A commercial raw. I normally feed Acana on account of the staff feeding program and raw is expensive but some of the commercial brands my store carries got "ruined" when we lost our freezer. They defrosted for, 12 or so hours and were refrozen. Due to freezer burn and the possible proliferation of bacteria, we opted not to sell these bags and lost a lot of money. But, I got to take all those unsellable bags xd

Cowboy was on honest kitchen (dehydrated raw, which I now buy instead of canned food as a treat) and raw Bison from Arusha for the better part of a week and his stools were magnificent, I've never seen them so solid and small. Yesterday he ran out, and I'd also gotten a bag of Senior rather than light & fit since he's doing a lot more exercise lately. Today was a mess. I couldn't even pick it up, it all got stuck in the grass. I also know that even vets who bash raw, will admit that coat and stool are usually brilliant in raw fed dogs. To me that is a mega big sign that this is GOOD for my dog.


What do you think about the above arguments? Do you think the veterinary community will ever accept this form of dog food? Does your vet? Perhaps certain parts of the world are worse than others. I get the feeling Ontario is a very raw friendly place.  

[Ailinea]

I'll get back to a more detailed response later, but my first thought to the whole "cooking proteins" is this: man, those wolves, foxes, and coyotes out there must be dying left and right without being able to cook that meat.  

[Shanna66]

the risk of even us getting salmonella from eating undercooked meats is low and we have such a long digestive track. if it was as common as people make it sound then i would have had it dozens of times by now since i eat raw meat off the floor when i drop it

i cant imagine it being common at all with dogs so long as you are careful with the meat and try to make sure its clean  

[Ailinea]

Now that I'm bored at work, I can answer this a little better.

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

#1. It's not complete balanced. Granted, as everyone who makes their own raw knows balance over time, there is of course room for mistakes. There is the potential for deficiencies. Which is where commercial raw comes in. It takes out all the work and calculating and claims to be complete and balanced. The problem is, many are not. False claims about meeting aafco guidelines are everywhere. Not that aafco is a great standard, but if you can't even meet that, well, you might wind up with say, a food where the calcium and phosphorus ratio is actually inverted and dogs develop bone disease. A scary thought. But the rep who presented this to me claimed that of all the products she tested, NONE met aafco, however there is the Nature's Variety which follows aafco.

The AAFCO also passes garbage dog food like Ol' Roy and the kibble crack we all know and love to hate: Kibbles N' Bits. I don't put much faith in the AAFCO since I have no doubt in my mind that they're paid off by pet food manufacturers and corn producers for the low-cost, poorly digestible corn and soy, grain fillers, and slaughter house floor scrapings found in low-quality foods these days. Yet we've all seen the terrible side effects from these types of kibble: poor coat, allergies, lethargy, cancers, kidney disease, etc.

As with all special diets, people should only feed once they know what they're doing. I agree, it is difficult to keep up with the specifications of raw if all you plan on doing is giving scrap bones and meat and not following through with prey model, which is ideal. The lack of organs can cause vitamin deficiencies and giving too much bone to growing puppies may cause problems. However, working with a raw-friendly vet can help calculate the appropriate ratios, instead of using scare tactics like anti-raw vets are doing.

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#2. You WANT to denature proteins. I thought this was a compelling argument as well. That you do not absorb whole proteins, a protein must be denatured to be absorbed, which is essentially what happens the moment in reaches your stomach acid. So she claimed that cooking actually rendered the food more digestible, and the whole fact of destroying nutrients doesn't matter since they add in vitamin supplements.

As I mentioned earlier, this is really a silly argument. Humans are the only animals in the world that cook meat. Wolves, lions, tigers, non-human primates, etc. have been consuming raw meat for millennia. Obviously, protein absorption is working just fine for them. This seems like another silly distraction to sway people back to kibble.

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#3. Animals shed salmonela for their entire lives even months-years after you stop feeding raw, and therefor anyone planning on having children is putting their future child at risk. I do NOT know where this originates from and would love to know if it is true. One thing I heard not too long after, was that salmonella was discovered to be a normal microbiota in healthy dogs. Meaning dogs NOT fed raw natually have salmonella in their G.I. This might explain where this theory comes from.

What the hell does he mean "shed salmonella?" In poop? If so, I wouldn't be allowing children to play in poop anyway...

I personally think there's more of a risk of contracting salmonella from kibble, based on the ever more frequent dog food recalls.

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Also, I put Cowboy BACK on raw. A commercial raw. I normally feed Acana on account of the staff feeding program and raw is expensive

Raw really isn't expensive unless you're buying that commercial ground stuff. I look for the marked-down meat at supermarkets and go to Asian stores for the more obscure stuff. There's also a co-op in my area that gets cheap meat - that is, meat pulled from the store shelves because they're slightly past the expiration date. You might try to find one in your area. =D

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I also know that even vets who bash raw, will admit that coat and stool are usually brilliant in raw fed dogs. To me that is a mega big sign that this is GOOD for my dog.

Exactly. I also saw a marked increase in my dog's energy level. I wasn't sure until I put him back on high-quality kibble once and saw his energy wane a bit, and then put him back on raw a couple weeks ago and the energy definitely went back up. His poop is, as you said, much smaller, which makes me think he's digesting this raw meat really well, compared to the corn, veggies, and grains that are shed in big poops on kibble.

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What do you think about the above arguments? Do you think the veterinary community will ever accept this form of dog food? Does your vet? Perhaps certain parts of the world are worse than others. I get the feeling Ontario is a very raw friendly place.

My local co-op email list is currently sharing their vets with the list that are raw-friendly. The amount in my area is actually surprising. I think it's beginning to be more embraced. Unfortunately, it's leading the way into commercial ground raw, which is OK every now and then, but it's usually over priced and I feel it doesn't do a good job of exercising jaw muscles or cleaning teeth like large cuts of meat do.

I mean, honestly, what were we feeding dogs 60 years ago before kibble? Their digestive systems are still the same as their relatives. Raw, to me, is very species-appropriate and should be more embraced by vets.  

[Ailinea]

Also, semi-related, I'm trying to get my dog to self-regulate and not gulp down entire chicken legs, so I gave him a whole chicken a couple weeks ago, he didn't quite know what to do with it lol.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3867108992136  

[Shanna66]

Ailinea

Also, semi-related, I'm trying to get my dog to self-regulate and not gulp down entire chicken legs, so I gave him a whole chicken a couple weeks ago, he didn't quite know what to do with it lol.

]http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3867108992136

thats adorable whee  

[SmoothSavage]

Thankfully, my regular vet is homeopathic/holistic, so he's really gung-ho about raw. Also thankfully, my Western-style vets- the orthopedic specialist and my backup clinic if I can't get in with my normal vet- are accepting of me feeding raw. Neither knows anything about it, and both push things like Science Diet, but they both accept that I know what I'm doing and don't give me crap about it. I won't go to a vet that tries to argue with me about what I feed my dogs and cats. Riddle's hair falls out on kibble and she gets major diarrhea, so we won't ever be going back, and if a vet wants to argue with me they're not someone I want to see.

More vets are getting more accepting though, Gaby. Hell, we have a new vet at our local BANFIELD who is sending people to our store to buy pre-made raw!  

[Gabrielle_AnimalLuver]

On the subject of aafco. The way it was explained to me is this. Dogs were fed over a period of 6 months to observe the bare minimum and absolute maximum requirements of vitamins, minerals, fat, carbs, protein etc. The minimum/maximum requirements were based on how much they needed to not show sins of disease. aafco then decided on a range more in the middle of what they had discovered. Of course you could use say, hair, for protein, and meet aafco, but the dog can't digest it. On the other hand though, if you are a raw company who throws together meat and bone with no research into the analysis of the vitamins and minerals in the finished product, you could wind up with something that has more phos than calcium and this can easily lead to bone disease, especially in growing puppies.


And yes, raw is expensive when you are use to getting top quality kibble for free.  

[Ailinea]

Gabrielle_AnimalLuver

On the subject of aafco. The way it was explained to me is this. Dogs were fed over a period of 6 months to observe the bare minimum and absolute maximum requirements of vitamins, minerals, fat, carbs, protein etc. The minimum/maximum requirements were based on how much they needed to not show sins of disease. aafco then decided on a range more in the middle of what they had discovered. Of course you could use say, hair, for protein, and meet aafco, but the dog can't digest it. On the other hand though, if you are a raw company who throws together meat and bone with no research into the analysis of the vitamins and minerals in the finished product, you could wind up with something that has more phos than calcium and this can easily lead to bone disease, especially in growing puppies.

Yeah, I can see how AAFCO puts forward certain standards... it's just up to the kibble companies to determine how to meet those standards, like you said. They can just put in junk like soybeans and slaughterhouse floor scrapings (and euthanized pets) to make up the protein, which isn't quality at all. And yes, with puppies, you definitely have to know what you're doing.

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And yes, raw is expensive when you are use to getting top quality kibble for free.

Well, yeah, anything is expensive when you previously got something for free lol. But I just bought over 9 pounds of chicken today for $9, which will feed my dog for 3 weeks, compared to the $20 bag of ToTW, which would last about a month. My co-op sells expired meat, including roasts, red meat, etc for .50/lb, which is amazingly inexpensive. A lot of raw feeders I know post ads on Craigslist looking for free meat, and often score dozens of pounds of meat for free or extremely cheap. It's totally do-able. smile  

[imderanged]

Ailinea

Raw really isn't expensive unless you're buying that commercial ground stuff. I look for the marked-down meat at supermarkets and go to Asian stores for the more obscure stuff. There's also a co-op in my area that gets cheap meat - that is, meat pulled from the store shelves because they're slightly past the expiration date. You might try to find one in your area. =D

Is that OK? I thought the idea with feeding raw was to get the FRESHEST meat possible?  

[Ailinea]

imderanged

Ailinea

Raw really isn't expensive unless you're buying that commercial ground stuff. I look for the marked-down meat at supermarkets and go to Asian stores for the more obscure stuff. There's also a co-op in my area that gets cheap meat - that is, meat pulled from the store shelves because they're slightly past the expiration date. You might try to find one in your area. =D

Is that OK? I thought the idea with feeding raw was to get the FRESHEST meat possible?

Nope. Meat is meat is meat. Once it starts getting really stinky, I tend to throw it away. But meat that is just slightly past "expiration date" is just fine for human consumption, why shouldn't it be OK for dogs? To be fair, "expiration date" is something stores use to cover their butts... it really has no grounding in how bad the meat is for people, unless it's obvious that the meat is smelly or slimy. And it doesn't need to be super fresh, the dogs don't care. smile (In fact, a lot of dogs LOVE stinkier meat, ha!)  

[Shanna66]

Ailinea

imderanged

Ailinea

Raw really isn't expensive unless you're buying that commercial ground stuff. I look for the marked-down meat at supermarkets and go to Asian stores for the more obscure stuff. There's also a co-op in my area that gets cheap meat - that is, meat pulled from the store shelves because they're slightly past the expiration date. You might try to find one in your area. =D

Is that OK? I thought the idea with feeding raw was to get the FRESHEST meat possible?

Nope. Meat is meat is meat. Once it starts getting really stinky, I tend to throw it away. But meat that is just slightly past "expiration date" is just fine for human consumption, why shouldn't it be OK for dogs? To be fair, "expiration date" is something stores use to cover their butts... it really has no grounding in how bad the meat is for people, unless it's obvious that the meat is smelly or slimy. And it doesn't need to be super fresh, the dogs don't care. smile (In fact, a lot of dogs LOVE stinkier meat, ha!)

i still cook slimy meat for myself lol havent gotten sick yet. unless its smells really bad then i figure its still good. all raw meat is a little slimy and kind of smelly anyways. not to mention the expiration date is pretty much just a sell by date lik eyou were saying, its still good for another week or so

our farm fresh used to sell meat that was past its date for a discount, if it really was unhealthy to do that they woudlnt be able to do that for fear of being sued  

[Ailinea]

Shanna66

i still cook slimy meat for myself lol havent gotten sick yet. unless its smells really bad then i figure its still good. all raw meat is a little slimy and kind of smelly anyways. not to mention the expiration date is pretty much just a sell by date lik eyou were saying, its still good for another week or so

our farm fresh used to sell meat that was past its date for a discount, if it really was unhealthy to do that they woudlnt be able to do that for fear of being sued

Indeed! Especially if you freeze the meat, then it stays good for a long time. 3nodding

Btw, Shanna, the new pic of Stowrm you have on your sig is so freaking adorable!! He's like ^_^ whee  

[Shanna66]

Ailinea

Shanna66

i still cook slimy meat for myself lol havent gotten sick yet. unless its smells really bad then i figure its still good. all raw meat is a little slimy and kind of smelly anyways. not to mention the expiration date is pretty much just a sell by date lik eyou were saying, its still good for another week or so

our farm fresh used to sell meat that was past its date for a discount, if it really was unhealthy to do that they woudlnt be able to do that for fear of being sued

Indeed! Especially if you freeze the meat, then it stays good for a long time. 3nodding

Btw, Shanna, the new pic of Stowrm you have on your sig is so freaking adorable!! He's like ^_^ whee

lol thanks. she has gotten pretty chill sitting out front with me. she doesnt even get tense when people walk past anymore  

[kage no neko]

I'm definitely going to look into feeding raw when I get a puppy. We've tried with the cats and they're just.. not interested at all. The one cat won't eat anything except wet food, his blue buffalo, and cat n** leaves. XD The other one won't eat anything raw, but she'll eat ANYTHING I'm eating. So if I'm eating meat, she always gets some.

I'm thinking to maybe get a german shepherd, or something else like that.. maybe a little less energetic, and probably a mix. But we'll see. I'll also have to look around for super cheap meat, and do lots of research of how to balance out the diet.