Mormonism

[SinfulGuillotine]

Shadows, what was it that led you to you conversion to Mormonism from traditional Christianity? Every Mormon I've known has grown up LDS, so I'm just curious what you found in the LDS church that your previous denomination was lacking? (I'm not asking in any sort of mocking way, I'm genuinely curious.)

I aplogise if you've already answered that question; if that's the case, can you perhaps point me to the page that contains your answer?  

[Garland-Green]

Shadows-shine

Regardless of how you attempt to cover your rudeness, you were still rude. An apology would be accepted if it was offered but you chose to insult me and be rude. I am done with this argument as it is going no where. I offered to answer questions and have decent debate/discussion, but alas it didn't happen. So I'm done and will not continue with this debate.

If any of the moderators agree with you that it was rude of me then they may delete my posts that are rude. It was not name calling, or said to be-little you.
If anyone of the moderators delete my posts I will see it as being in the wrong and stand corrected. They may do that if they see me do anything wrong. I will not be offended, hurt or take offense. I direct this at any of the guild moderators reading this.  

[Shadows-shine]

SinfulGuillotine

Shadows-shine

SinfulGuillotine

Shadows-shine

SinfulGuillotine

II already mentioned my source: a book called Under the Banner of Heaven. Also, various news articles I found online relating to the subject. I can try to find them again, but I'm currently using a friend's mobile to get online, so that might have to wait until I can get online on a real computer.

It may have been common practise for girls to marry young "back in the day," but by the 19th century, it was not common (and possibly not even legal) for girls to marry much younger than 18. And I'm not talking about back in the day. I'm talking about things going on right now. This stuff is still going on today in some fundementalist Mormon splinter groups.

And I never meant to imply that you support child rape, and as I said before, I'm also aware that such behaviour is not condoned by the mainstream LDS church.

Sorry, I didn't catch that refernce. My bad. The Church is.not affiliated with any of those splinter groups, so what they do or teach is not a reflection on The LDS Church.

I realise that, but that doesn't change the fact that such atrocities are being committed in the name of the Mormon religion, and feel justified in their actions because of teachings from those who founded the religion. Not that this is the first time someone has used religion as an excuse to commit horrible crimes, nor will it be the last, but whhat I find...frustrating...is that the mainstream LDS church seems more concerned with separating themselves from these people rather than making a concerted effort to stop what they themselvaes profess to be a perverse bastardisation of their religion.

All that aside, I do actually have a legitimate question that I've asked several other Mormons but never received a satisfying answer: if polygamy was a practise allegedly condoned, even encouraged, by God, why has the mainstream LDS church rejected it so vehemently?

What can the Church do to stop them? I mean, it has no control over what another religion does. I think the Church distances itself so much from those groups because there truly is nothing we can do to stop it since it's beyond our control.. To answer your question, it's because polygamy is an andwer to a concern. The concern was population. When civilization needed successors to the Church then God would allow polygamy. Thus was the case with Abraham and thus was the case with the early days of the LDS Church. Because God would allow it for a time but then would take it away as was the case with King David.

From what I understand, the LDS church has absurd amounts of money. Why not use some of that in outreach programmes, shelters for girls and women who run away from these compounds, therapy/spiritual healing for survivors of this kind of abuse..."Oh well, there's nothing we can doabout it" is a cop-out, especially when it comes from an organisation that really does have the resources to do quite a lot, or if not a lot, at least something. To my knowledge, the LDS church has done little more than throw up their hands and assure the world that they're not like that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That's actually the best answer I've gotten to that question. Thank you.

The Church may already do things like that. I know it has an extensive welfare program, job outreach program, etc. I'd have to do some digging just to satisfy curiousity.  

[Shadows-shine]

SinfulGuillotine

Shadows, what was it that led you to you conversion to Mormonism from traditional Christianity? Every Mormon I've known has grown up LDS, so I'm just curious what you found in the LDS church that your previous denomination was lacking? (I'm not asking in any sort of mocking way, I'm genuinely curious.)

I aplogise if you've already answered that question; if that's the case, can you perhaps point me to the page that contains your answer?

It was a number of things. I had many unanswered questions. None of the pastors I talked to would answer them our they could not, I don't know. Conflicting doctrines, lack of unity, etc. I have had a testimony of the Book of Mormon since high school. I won't share my conversion story as a whole, unless you care to read it, but the brief version is after studying and praying and searching for truth for several years, the Holy Ghost whispered to me one evening shortly after my daughter was born, and said, calling me by name, "you already know this Church is true, you don't have to ask any more." Ultimately, it was the whisperings of the Spirit that led me to convert.
Does that answer your question?  

[Aoife]

Garland-Green

Shadows-shine

Regardless of how you attempt to cover your rudeness, you were still rude. An apology would be accepted if it was offered but you chose to insult me and be rude. I am done with this argument as it is going no where. I offered to answer questions and have decent debate/discussion, but alas it didn't happen. So I'm done and will not continue with this debate.

If any of the moderators agree with you that it was rude of me then they may delete my posts that are rude. It was not name calling, or said to be-little you.
If anyone of the moderators delete my posts I will see it as being in the wrong and stand corrected. They may do that if they see me do anything wrong. I will not be offended, hurt or take offense. I direct this at any of the guild moderators reading this.

I think perhaps you just hit a nerve with your comment, I didn't think it was rude or meant to bring offense, but since she did, I think you did the right thing by apologizing. I don't think it should be deleted though.  

[Garland-Green]

Aoife

Garland-Green

Shadows-shine

Regardless of how you attempt to cover your rudeness, you were still rude. An apology would be accepted if it was offered but you chose to insult me and be rude. I am done with this argument as it is going no where. I offered to answer questions and have decent debate/discussion, but alas it didn't happen. So I'm done and will not continue with this debate.

If any of the moderators agree with you that it was rude of me then they may delete my posts that are rude. It was not name calling, or said to be-little you.
If anyone of the moderators delete my posts I will see it as being in the wrong and stand corrected. They may do that if they see me do anything wrong. I will not be offended, hurt or take offense. I direct this at any of the guild moderators reading this.

I think perhaps you just hit a nerve with your comment, I didn't think it was rude or meant to bring offense, but since she did, I think you did the right thing by apologizing. I don't think it should be deleted though.

There is nothing to gain for me in hurting or offending people, though my wife sometimes say I can be insensitive and blunt, not because I am intentionally rude but because of lacking social antennas. If none of the other moderators object I will leave my posts as they are.  

[Ratsah]

I remember observing the heated competition for doors between the Mormons, Jehovah's Witness'', Christian Science, and 7th day Adventist. The funny thing is they all sprang up and out of the Millerites in the mid to late 1800's. X) I have to say though the 7th day Adventist were the most tolerable. I had a Mormon friend in High School who later left them.  

[_Leon Camero_]

Mormonism is just sad today... I had seen them. And I know their idealism far better than they do. Surprisingly they said it is a bunch of laws that gets them to be corrected and not fall for sin. And yet, they not realized they had sinned since the 1800s. No wonder God almighty himself warned against this specific type of religion. As well as Islam, Judaism, and Catholics combined.

They do not want to be corrected by a Christian. Odd isn't it? It seems to go along with the ideal with Islam themselves. They can deny me, but had they read the Qur'an? As I had along with this false doctrine Mormonism? Seem.like they do not. You cannot add the Bible to another doctrines. There are no other doctrines but God's truth. If there is another, that book becomes a curse ( mormons, islam, catholic, Judaism, other Religions). It wil bring downfalls to many nations. Telling a mormon this truth is like talking to an atheist, pointless. Especially if they are deep in this curse.

I do recommend praying for them to see the truth.

They know this is truth, but will deny it, for they had been devoted for too long...  

[_Leon Camero_]

Shadows-shine

SinfulGuillotine

Shadows, what was it that led you to you conversion to Mormonism from traditional Christianity? Every Mormon I've known has grown up LDS, so I'm just curious what you found in the LDS church that your previous denomination was lacking? (I'm not asking in any sort of mocking way, I'm genuinely curious.)

I aplogise if you've already answered that question; if that's the case, can you perhaps point me to the page that contains your answer?

It was a number of things. I had many unanswered questions. None of the pastors I talked to would answer them our they could not, I don't know. Conflicting doctrines, lack of unity, etc. I have had a testimony of the Book of Mormon since high school. I won't share my conversion story as a whole, unless you care to read it, but the brief version is after studying and praying and searching for truth for several years, the Holy Ghost whispered to me one evening shortly after my daughter was born, and said, calling me by name, "you already know this Church is true, you don't have to ask any more." Ultimately, it was the whisperings of the Spirit that led me to convert.
Does that answer your question?

A lie from the Devil himself... and He won you over...  

[Souijji]

Garland-Green

I am saying that Mormonism tells of a different Christ, which is not the Christ of the Bible so hence he can't save anyone. I am not calling you evil. Just lost and deceived. That is speaking as I see it, not putting anything in between, or speaking with a cleft tongue. If I didn't that would be speaking with a cleft tongue. He didn't beat down the sinner, but he did tell them to turn from their sins and we are told to follow his example. I don't feel it is beating someone down trying to make them see their errors.

James 5:19-20
My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

The Mormon Jesus

1. The literal son of god and his goddess wife begotten in the pre-existence.
2. The brother of all spirits born in heaven in the premortal existence.
3. One of 3 gods in the godhead.
4. The Trinity is three separate gods.
5. First one to receive a spirit body.
6. Atoned for sin on the cross and in the garden of Gethsemane.

The Christian Jesus

1. Not the literal son of god and his goddess wife.
2. Not the brother of all spirits born in heaven in a premortal existence.
3. Not one of 3 gods in the godhead.
4. The Trinity is 3 persons in one God.
5. Was always spirit from eternity.
6. Atoned for sin on the cross alone.

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)

If I may take up a bit where Shadows-shine left off for a moment.

1-If Christ is not the literal Son of God then who is he and why should we believe in him?

2-If we were not all brothers and sisters in heaven then where did we come from?

3-You speak of the Godhead. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost. Is this not three separate beings? If it's not then why list three titles?

4-See three for the question

5-Jesus Christ was not the first one born, therefore He could not be the first spirit to receive a body

6-In the garden of Gethsemane, Christ wept and prayed for all mankind, he bled at every pore with the pain of the sins of the world that he took upon himself. He was nailed to the cross by his enemies and frankly forgave them, asking His father to do the same (Luke 23:34). His resurrection promised that all who believed in him would see the resurrection themselves.


Now if I may add a few points here.

If you believe in the bible then you read over and over again that Christ spoke to his Father. This means that God the Father and Jesus Christ can't be the same person, unless you say that Christ was praying to himself, which would be silly.

Take that one step further. If God is a loving Heavenly Father, which so many are taught then why would he stop speaking to his"children"? Us being His children. That would point to the fact that either we are not his children, or that he is powerless to do so, or possibly that even he doesn't want to, (which would be opposite of Him being a loving Father.) This leads me to conclude that either he still does or that people are too blind to hear or see Him speaking.

I know a lot of people don't understand The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I get very tired of seeing so much bashing of it and having people call it evil  

[Garland-Green]

Souijji

Garland-Green

I am saying that Mormonism tells of a different Christ, which is not the Christ of the Bible so hence he can't save anyone. I am not calling you evil. Just lost and deceived. That is speaking as I see it, not putting anything in between, or speaking with a cleft tongue. If I didn't that would be speaking with a cleft tongue. He didn't beat down the sinner, but he did tell them to turn from their sins and we are told to follow his example. I don't feel it is beating someone down trying to make them see their errors.

James 5:19-20
My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

The Mormon Jesus

1. The literal son of god and his goddess wife begotten in the pre-existence.
2. The brother of all spirits born in heaven in the premortal existence.
3. One of 3 gods in the godhead.
4. The Trinity is three separate gods.
5. First one to receive a spirit body.
6. Atoned for sin on the cross and in the garden of Gethsemane.

The Christian Jesus

1. Not the literal son of god and his goddess wife.
2. Not the brother of all spirits born in heaven in a premortal existence.
3. Not one of 3 gods in the godhead.
4. The Trinity is 3 persons in one God.
5. Was always spirit from eternity.
6. Atoned for sin on the cross alone.

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)

If I may take up a bit where Shadows-shine left off for a moment.

1-If Christ is not the literal Son of God then who is he and why should we believe in him?

2-If we were not all brothers and sisters in heaven then where did we come from?

3-You speak of the Godhead. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost. Is this not three separate beings? If it's not then why list three titles?

4-See three for the question

5-Jesus Christ was not the first one born, therefore He could not be the first spirit to receive a body

6-In the garden of Gethsemane, Christ wept and prayed for all mankind, he bled at every pore with the pain of the sins of the world that he took upon himself. He was nailed to the cross by his enemies and frankly forgave them, asking His father to do the same (Luke 23:34). His resurrection promised that all who believed in him would see the resurrection themselves.


Now if I may add a few points here.

If you believe in the bible then you read over and over again that Christ spoke to his Father. This means that God the Father and Jesus Christ can't be the same person, unless you say that Christ was praying to himself, which would be silly.

Take that one step further. If God is a loving Heavenly Father, which so many are taught then why would he stop speaking to his"children"? Us being His children. That would point to the fact that either we are not his children, or that he is powerless to do so, or possibly that even he doesn't want to, (which would be opposite of Him being a loving Father.) This leads me to conclude that either he still does or that people are too blind to hear or see Him speaking.

I know a lot of people don't understand The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I get very tired of seeing so much bashing of it and having people call it evil

But Christ claimed that he existed before Abraham (John 8:58.), that he was equal with the Father (John 5:17-18.), that he had the ability to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7) (something the Bible teaches only God can do, Isaiah 43:25). The New Testament equated Jesus as the creator of the universe (John 1:3) and the one who holds all things together (Colossians 1:17). Paul says that God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).

Jesus' enemies wanted to stone him for blasphemy, "because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God" (John 10:33).

If Jesus is not God, then explain;

Why Thomas calls Jesus God in John 20:28? (Note, Thomas addresses Jesus specifically.)
Why does God call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8?
Why does John the apostle state that Jesus was the Word which was God that became flesh (John 1:1,14)?
Why is the phrase "Call upon the name of the LORD" (Hebrew, YHWH, i.e., Psalm 116:4) used only of God on the OT, and translated into the Greek in the LXX as "Call upon the name of the LORD (greek, KURIOS)," applied to Jesus in the NT (1 Cor. 1:2) if Jesus is not God in flesh?
Why does the apostle John say that Jesus was , "...calling God His own Father, making Himself equal to God," (John 5:18.)?
What did Jesus say that caused the Pharisees to claim that Jesus was making Himself out to be God (John 8:58.)?
How was it possible for Jesus to know all things (John 21:17)?
How can Jesus know all men (John 16:30)?
How can Jesus be everywhere (Matt. 28:20)?
How can Jesus, the Christ, dwell in you (Col. 1:27)?
How can Jesus be the exact representation of the Nature of God (Heb. 1:3)?
How can Jesus be eternal (Micah 5:1-2)?
How can Jesus be the one who gives eternal life (John 10:27-28.)?
How can He be our only Lord and Master (Jude 4)?
How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) if there is only one God in existence (Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:5)?
How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and "God" also be called the Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21?
How was Jesus able to raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21)?
How can Jesus create all things (Col. 1:16-17), yet it is God who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:24)?
How can Jesus search the hearts and minds of the people (Rev. 2:23)?
Why was Jesus worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6) when He says to worship God only (Matt. 4:10)? (same Greek word for worship is used in each place.)
In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18.). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing? See John 8:58.
Then why did Jesus claim the divine name, "I AM", for Himself in John 8:58? see Exodus 3:14.
Then why did Jesus say you must honor him even as you honor the Father (John 5:23)?
Then why is it that both the Father and the Son give life (John 5:21)?
Then why did Jesus bear witness of Himself (John 8:18; 14:6)?


"Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father'? John 14:8-9.

The key to understanding how Jesus could pray to God the Father is found in Hebrews 2:17: "Therefore [Jesus] had to be made like his brothers in every respect." One of the important callings of all people is to pray. Jesus was fully human as well as fully God, and it was perfectly fitting that He should pray to the Father in heaven.

There are several reasons why Jesus, as a human being, prayed to the Father. First, all people are called to worship God. Prayer is one form of worship.

Second, as a Jew, Jesus was fulfilling the Law of Moses to pray to the LORD. If He did not pray to God the Father, He would have been disobedient and sinful.

Third, as our high priest, Jesus intercedes on behalf of God's people (Hebrews 2:17). We see Jesus acting as intercessor in John 17, sometimes called the "High Priestly Prayer."

A fourth reason for Jesus praying to the Father is found in John 11:41-42. In this passage, Jesus prays before He raises Lazarus from the dead: "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me." So, one reason Jesus prayed to the Father was for the benefit of those around Him.

Fifth, Jesus prayed to the Father to enjoy the fellowship of the Triune Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Sometimes, the Bible simply says, "Jesus prayed," yet other times we see a glimpse of something more. Following Jesus' baptism, He prayed, and "the heavens were opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, 'You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased'" (Luke 3:21-22). Here, within the context of a prayer, Father, Son, and Spirit are all revealed in perfect fellowship.

Jesus prayed to God the Father because it was an appropriate, natural, and essential part of His mission on earth. His prayers set an example for us grow in intimacy with our Heavenly Father.

Jesus' identity as God is the cornerstone of the gospel message, and is something the early church fathers defended fervently. Had He simply been a man, just a good teacher or a prophet, His death on the cross would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2), and those who hope in Him are deceived and pitiable (1 Corinthians 15:19). Thankfully, there is ample evidence, both from the mouth of Jesus Himself, and from other accounts in Scripture, to prove to us that Jesus Christ is indeed God.  

[Garland-Green]

Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."  

[Garland-Green]

Following are Scriptures that support both his divinity and his humanity.

Fully God
Isa. 9:6; Matt. 11:27; 16:16; Mark 2:5-7; Luke 5:20-22; 9:20; John 1:1; 1:14; 2:19, 21; 3:13, 31; 5:18; 6:38; 8:58; 9: 38; 10:17; 10:30; 13:3; 14:9; 14:23; 16:15; 16:28; 17:8; 17:21-23; 20:28; Romans 9:5; 1 Cor. 10:3-4; 15:47; 18:4-6; 2 Cor. 8:9; Phil. 2:5-11; Colossians 1:15-17, 19; 2:9; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:2-3, 8-11; 2:7, 9, 14, 16; 13:8; 1 John 5:20; Rev. 1:8, 17; 2:8; 3:14.

Fully human
Matt. 1:1, 18-25; 4:2; 26:38; Luke 1:26-38; 9:58; 22:44; John 1:14; 11:33-35; 19:28, 34; Romans 9:5; 1 Cor. 15:3; Gal. 4:4; Phil. 2:5-11; 1 Tim. 2:5; 3:16; Heb. 2:14-15, 17-18; 4:15; 10:5; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 4:2; 2 John 7.  

[Garland-Green]

The Early Church Was Outspoken On The Deity Of Chris

Ignatius Bishop of Antioch died about 110 A.D. he was a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote about the lords 2nd coming, "Look for him that is above the times, him who has not times, him who is invisible". Only God is without time , eternal and invisible. In numerous other places in his letter to Polycarp he states "Jesus is God", "God incarnate"

"Be deaf, therefore, when any would speak to you apart from (at variance with) JESUS CHRIST [the Son of God], who was descended from the family of David, born of Mary, who truly was born [both of God and of the Virgin ... truly took a body; for the Word became flesh and dwelt among us without sin"… Bishop of Antioch died about 110 A.D. he was a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote about the lords 2nd coming, "Look for him that is above the times, him who has not times, him who is invisible". Only God is without time , eternal and invisible. In numerous other places in his letter to Polycarp he states "Jesus is God", "God incarnate."

"Be deaf, therefore, when any would speak to you apart from (at variance with) JESUS CHRIST [the Son of God], who was descended from the family of David, born of Mary, who truly was born [both of God and of the Virgin ... truly took a body; for the Word became flesh and dwelt among us without sin."

Ignatius of Antioch "In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988.).

"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." ( The ante-nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, Vol. 1, p. 52 .)

"For our God Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost."( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:9)

"...God Himself appearing in the form of a man, for the renewal of eternal life."( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:13)

"Continue inseparable from Jesus Christ our God."( Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians 2:4)

"For even our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is in the Father".( Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans 1:13)

Clement of Rome (Philipians 4:3)"For Christ is with those who are humble, not with those exalt themselves over his flock. The majestic scepter of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, did not come with the pomp of arrogance or pride (though He could have done so), but in humility, just as the Holy Spirit spoke concerning Him." (1 Clement 16:1-2)

"Brethren, we ought so to think of Jesus Christ as of God : as of the judge of the living and the dead".(2nd Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians 1:1)

Justin Martyr ( 140 A.D.) "the word of wisdom, who is himself God begotten of the Father of all things, and word, and wisdom, and power, and the glory of the begetter, will bear evidence to me".(Dialogue with Tropho Ch.61)

"God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: 'Let us make man after our image and likeness' . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this Offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62).

"For Christ is King, and Priest, and God and Lord..."(Dialogue With Trypho, 34)

"...He preexisted as the Son of theCreator of things, being God, and that He was born a man by the Virgin." (Dialogue With Trypho, 48. )

"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5-6).

Polycarp (70-160). Bishop of Smyrna.A disciple of John the Apostle. "O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever"

"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest Himself, the God Jesus Christ, build you up in the faith..."( The Epistle of Polycarp to the Church at Philippi, 12

Iranaeus Iranaeus (120-202) "In order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King..."(Irenaeus Against Heresies, 1.10.1)

180 A.D. "But he Jesus is himself in his own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, and king eternal, and the incarnate word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles …The Scriptures would not have borne witness to these things concerning Him, if, like everyone else, He were mere man." (Against Heresies 3:19.1-2)

"For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, 'Let us make man after our image and likeness'".( Against Heresies, 4:10)

Iranaeus gave the Church two statements which have continued in its creeds: (1) Filius dei filius hominis factus, "The Son of God [has] become a son of man, (Earl Cairns Christianity Through the Centuries, Zondervan, 1981, pg.110) Jesus Christus vere homo, vere deus, "Jesus Christ, true man and true God." (Harold Brown Heresies, Zondervan, 1989, pg.84)

Irenaeus gave three forms of the statement of faith in three different contexts in This is showing the variety of ways that the faith could be expressed in his day smile

Third Form: IN ONE GOD ALMIGHTY, from whom are all things; and IN THE SON OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord, by whom are all things, and in his dispensations, through which the Son of God became man; the firm -persuasion also IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD, who furnishes us with a knowledge of the truth, and has set forth the dispensations of the Father and the Son, in virtue of which he dwells in every generation of men, according to the will of the Father (IV. xxiii. 7).(God in three persons C.Beisner) this is long before the council of Niacea.

Diogneteus Diogneteus to Mathetes (written 130 A.D.) "as a king sends his Son, who is also king, so sent he him, as God (1) he sent him; as men he sent him; as savior he sent him,…" Chpt.7 says "God" (1) which refers to the person sent.

Theophilus (115-181) Bishop of Antioch (To Autolycus 2:22 ,160 A.D.) "For the divine writing itself teaches us that Adam said that he had heard the voice but what else is this voice but the word of God, who is also his Son."

Tatian the Syrian (170 AD ) "Our God has no introduction in time. He alone is without beginning, and is Himself the beginning of all things. God is a spirit, not attending upon matter, but the Maker of material spirits and of the appearances which are in matter. He is invisible and untouchable, being Himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things. This we know by the evidence of what He has created; and we perceive His invisible power by His works".(Tatian, Address to the Greeks , 4)

"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21).

Melito of Sardis (177 AD )The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism… he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai's, The Guide 13).

Athenagoras (160 AD.) Speaks of "one God, the uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, uncontainable, comprehended only by mindand reason, clothed in light and beauty and spirit and powerindescribable, by whom the totality has come to be."(suppl. 10.1)

…"the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of Spirit, the understanding, and reason of the Father is the Son of God." (Ante Nicene Fathers vol.2 p.133 a plea for Christians)

"For Christ is the God over all".(Refutation of All Heresies 10.34)

Athenagoras identifies the Word as the Son of God, says 'although the word is God’s offspring, he never came into being. Rather, having been with God and in God eternally he issued forth at a point in time."( A plea for the Christians 12.20) "God the Word came down from heaven...He came forth into the world and...showed Himself to be God".( Against the Heresy of a Certain Noetus, 17)

speaking of what the church believes, "they hold the Father to be God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit, and declare their union and their distinction in order."(A plea for the Christians.10.3)

"Who, then, would not be astonished to hear those called atheists who admit God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and who teach their unity in power and their distinction in rank?"( Intercession on Behalf of the Saints, 10)

Clement of Alexandria (190 AD) "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning, for he was in God, and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone. is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1).

Tertullian (converted around 193 AD)(215 AD) "The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ 5:6-7).

"God alone is without sin. The only man without sin is Christ; for Christ is also God."(The Soul 41.3)

We find that it was the ones who did not understand the trinity that were looked upon as divisive. Tetullians theological writings consisted mostly in response to what the Oneness (modalists) believes. (God is singular in person) When he debated Praxeas of which he wrote. "thus the connection of the Father in the Son the Son in the paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are one essence, not one person, as it is said, "I and my Father are one," in respect of unity of substance, not singularity of number."( Ante-Nicene fathers vol.3,p.621, against Praxeas.) He went on to say "Yet we have never given vent to the phrases ‘two Gods’, or ‘two Lords’: not that it is untrue the Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God, each is God." (ibid 13)

Tetullian developed his arguments and refined his belief of which the third form of his rule of faith became this. "We believe there is but one God, and no other besides the maker of the world, who produced the universe out of nothing, by his word sent forth first of all, that this word, called his Son, was seen in the name of God in various ways by the patriarchs, was always heard in the prophets, at last sent down, from the spirit and power of God the Father, into the virgin Mary, was made flesh in her womb, and born of her, lived as Jesus Christ...".

Not only is he careful in his explanation but throughout all his writings he defines three persons and one substance who are the one God. ."That this one and only God has a Son, his word, who proceeded from himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the virgin, and to have been born of her- being both man and God, the Son of man, and the Son of God, and to have been called the name of Jesus Christ;" (against Praxeas vol.3, p.598.)

Novatian (235 AD. )"For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth Him to be the Son of God only, but also the Son of man; nor does it only say, the Son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of Him as the Son of God. So that being of both, He is both, lest if He should be one only, He could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that He must be believed to be God who is of God . . . Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the Son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God" (Treatise on the Trinity 11).

Novatian "The rule of truth demands that, first of all, we believe in GOD THE FATHER and Almighty Lord, that is, the most perfect Maker of all things. . .' The same rule of truth teaches us to believe, after the Father, also in the SON OF GOD, CHRIST JESUS, our Lord God, but the Son of God.... Moreover, the order of reason and the authority of faith, in due consideration of the words and Scriptures of the Lord ', admonishes us, after this, to believe also in the HOLY GHOST, promised of old to the Church, but granted in the appointed and fitting time.

The church did not have non-Trinitarians. The Gnostics, Arians, Oneness and others were considered to be praching heresy and were excluded from the church universal. (This is not my words but the Churches) This did not stop them from going out and starting their own movements and church’s. These were the first cultic movements and many today have aligned themselves with their teachings , some have synthesized several of them together to make something altogether new.

Hippolytus 190 A.D. (Against the heresy of one Noetus "a Oneness promoter" ch.14, ) After quoting part of Jn.1:1 "If then the word was with God and was also God what follows ? Would one say that he speaks of two God’s ? I shall not speak of two Gods but of one; of two persons however and of a third economy, the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father is indeed one but there are two persons because there is also the son; and there is the third the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the word executes and the son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of the harmony is led back to the one God, for God is one. It is the father who commands and the son who obeys and the Holy Spirit who gives understanding; The Father is above all the son is through all and the holy Spirit who is in all. And we cannot think of one God, but by believing in truth in Father and Son and Holy Spirit".

"God, subsisting alone, and having nothing contemporaneous with Himself, determined to create the world....Beside Him there was nothing; but He, while existing alone, yet existed in plurality....And thus there appeared another beside Himself. But when I say another, I do not mean that there are two Gods....Thus, then, these too, though they wish it not, fall in with the truth, and admit that one God made all things....For Christ is the God above all.....He who is over all is God; for thus He speaks boldly, 'All things are delivered unto me of my Father.' He who is over all, God blessed, has been born; and having been made man, He is (yet) God for ever....And well has he named Christ the Almighty. "(Hippolytus " The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pp. 227, 153, 225)

In another of his writings "This is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; One God, the creator of all things; this is the first point of our faith. the second point is this; the word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the fathers dispensation, through whom all things were made."

Gregory the Wonder-worker (262 AD) "But some treat the Holy Trinity in an awful manner, when they confidently assert that there are not three persons, and introduce (the idea of) a person devoid of subsistence. Wherefore we clear ourselves of Sabellius, who says that the Father and the Son are the same [Person] . . . We forswear this, because we believe that three persons--namely, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--are declared to possess the one Godhead: for the one divinity showing itself forth according to nature in the Trinity establishes the oneness of the nature" (A Sectional Confession of Faith 8.).

"But if they say, 'How can there be three Persons, and how but one Divinity?' we shall make this reply: That there are indeed three persons, inasmuch as there is one person of God the Father, and one of the Lord the Son, and one of the Holy Spirit; and yet that there is but one divinity, inasmuch as . . . there is one substance in the Trinity" (A Sectional Confession of Faith, 14)

Dionysius (262 AD )"Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity . . . Rather, we must believe in God, the Father almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the Universe. `For,' he says, 'The Father and I are one,' and `I am in the Father, and the Father in me'" (Letter to Dionysius of Alexandria, 3)

Methodius (305 AD) "For the kingdom of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is one, even as their substance is one and their dominion one. Whence also, with one and the same adoration, we worship the one Deity in three Persons, subsisting without beginning, uncreated, without end, and to which there is no successor…. For nothing of the Trinity will suffer diminution, either in respect of eternity, or of communion, or of sovereignty" (Oration on the Psalms 5).

Arnobius (305 AD) "'Well, then,' some raging, angry, and excited man will say, 'Is that Christ your God?' 'God indeed,' we shall answer, 'and God of the hidden powers'" (Against the Pagans 1:42).

Athanasius (290 -370) "[The Trinity] is a Trinity not merely in name or in a figurative manner of speaking; rather, it is a Trinity in truth and in actual existence. Just as the Father is he that is, so also his Word is one that is and is God over all. And neither is the Holy Spirit nonexistent but actually exists and has true being." (Letters to Serapion 1:28.).

"United without confusion, distinguished without separation. Indivisible and without degrees." (Sermon on Lk.10:22)

If One examines carefully the writings of the early church writers their language and theology reflects their understanding of the Trinity. They contended from Scripture not from Greek philosophy or paganism as is charged from anti-Trinitarian opponents. Trinitarianism certainly was not developed in the 4th century but was part of the theology of the early church. Those who oppose it today, are not part of the Church just as they were not part of the Church in the beginning.  

[Garland-Green]

Anti-trinitarianism strikes at the foundations of Christianity by diminishing the Incarnation. If Jesus was created and not divine then God did not become man, nor did He have the power to redeem the world.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.