Marius, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, seeing as this post is two years old (lol). How much of your second post was you speaking, I'm not sure (were you simply "copying and pasting" commentary from an article?), but I was with you until this:
Quote:
One False Prophecy Makes For A False Prophet. " Behold, I am against the prophets, said the Lord, that use their tongues and say, He said. Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, said the Lord, and do tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their lightness; yet I send them not, nor commanded them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all, said the Lord." Jeremiah 23:31-32
[...]
So, Holy Scripture has told us to test every professed prophet, and it has also told us that only one false prophecy, a false prophet makes. Now, who is the false prophet? Scripture says it is the one who makes a prophecy which does not materialize. All it takes is one false prophecy to qualify them as a false prophet.
The text I've highlighted in red is not in scripture—nor an idea expressed by scripture at all—if by that you mean, "if they're wrong on one thing, then they're wrong on everything". If that is what you're saying, that would have Scripture contradicting itself by the time we get to Paul's epistles:
1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 (NIV)
20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21 but test them all; hold on to what is good,
...Paul suggests that certain elements of the prophetic message can be true, but whatever is wrong about it, discard it. Hold only to what was truthful. Again, I'm not sure if you authored the second post, or if you copied and pasted it, but whoever wrote it needs to take their own advice of "not adding or taking away" to scripture.
For the record, I'm not suggesting Ellen G. White is a prophet.
That said, some false presumptions that are being made here, directly because they've treated the prophecy with "contempt", not testing it, nor holding to what is good about it:
Quote:
Satan is to bear our sins.. "As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them upon the scapegoat, so Christ will place those sins upon Satan..." The Great Controversy, Pg 422, 485-486 Hmmm, I thought Christ bore our sins...
"So also was Christ offered once to TAKE AWAY THE SINS OF MANY." Hebrews 9:28. Show me where Christ will pass the sins onto satan? It is not in Scripture. Read Proverbs 30:5-6 again! Who is the liar?
Believers (not just SDA's) who believe in this theory are looking at three things to arrive at that conclusion:
(1) the Azazel goat mentioned in Leviticus 16:8-10, (2) the Azazel mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls, (3) and the description of Satan in Revelation 20.
1. The mention in Leviticus:
Leviticus 16:8-10 (ESV)
8 And Aaron shall cast lots over the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel.[a] 9 And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord and use it as a sin offering, 10 but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.
Footnotes:
a. Leviticus 16:8 The meaning of Azazel is uncertain; possibly the name of a place or a demon, traditionally a scapegoat; also verses 10, 26
2. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, "Azazel" is identified as the demon locked up until judgment day, at which point he is cast into the fire.
CHAPTER X.
[...] 4. And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azâzêl hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dûdâêl, and cast him therein. 5. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. 6. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons [...]
3. That gets paralleled to Satan, in Revelation 20, who is locked up for 1000 years, and at the end of those 1000 years, Satan is released and thrown into the lake of fire:
Revelation 20:2-3 (NIV)
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
Revelation 20:7-10 (NIV)
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And the verses that follow right after that, describe judgment day:
Revelation 20:11-15 (NIV)
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Jesus atoned for our sins (sin offering). So, going with this interpretation, Satan, who was NOT killed, is the Azazel who will be thrown into the wilderness (abandoned without God) for an eternity in the lake of fire. Jesus is not staying in the lake of fire for an eternity. Satan will be.
This separation from God is akin to:
2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NIV)
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
The way the words "for ever" were used here in the Dead Sea scrolls (suggesting Azazel is staying trapped "for ever", but then comes out on judgment day; thus, suggesting "temporary"), is how I heard it used from some other sources, and that made me look into what "for ever" meant in the Hebrew and the Greek, as used in the bible itself. Upon studying with a concordance, came to find, that there were some false ideas floating around in Christianity too. I found that "for ever" is not how we use "forever". It means "for an age" (the Greek uses "aeon/aion"; the Hebrew utlizes "olam"). It's a really long time, but it's not infinity. In scripture we hear of "this age, and the age to come". This "age" (aion), that we're currently living, is not infinity because there's another age to come. Ages do not last an infinity. Yet it's the same word translated as "forever". For an illustration of this, compare Matthew 12:32 and Revelation 20:10 (I'll post a screen shot of the Greek Interlinear)...
Matthew 12:32 (NIV)
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
How many more ages are there? I don't know. But scripture seems to suggest more than one awaits us.
Ephesians 2:7 (NIV)
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
I deny their doctrine of annihilation precisely because of that: the Scriptures say their torment will be "day and night forever and ever". And "a really long time" allows for day and night torment in the lake of fire; annihilation does not. But also wrong is the way we use the word "forever"—to mean infinity, without end. That's not true. Ages have a start and an end in scripture.
So you see, we need to hold on to what is good about their doctrine, and throw out the bad (some of the "bad" that's not even recognized as bad in mainstream, popular, Christian theology as well).
The person you're quoting in your third reply (David Cloud), is treating SDA doctrine with the same contempt. And at the same time, he is making distortions to Paul's epistles: glossing over details, ignoring Paul's actions in the book of Acts, which in turn muddies up what, exactly, Paul argues against in his epistles. Paul's letters cannot be read without reading the book of Acts. There's a reason Peter warned that Paul's epistles were getting distorted to support "the error of the lawless" (2 Peter 3:15-17).
Some examples of this happening:
David Cloud
"Christ hath REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith" (Ga. 3:13-14).
"Redeemed from the curse of the law" is one thing. It's another to say, "don't live by God's Law / the Law of Moses any longer"; the second is an entirely different statement, and one which the bible doesn't make. On the contrary,
Acts 21:21-24 (NIV)
21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.
Acts 21:26 (NIV)
26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.
Paul complied. Thus, he agreed that the rumor about him was wrong (Paul was not teaching "stop living by the law of Moses"; he himself continued living obediently to the Law of Moses, which is God's Law, including ceremonial and sacrificial ones; so the idea that Paul "taught against keeping the Law of Moses" was proven false by Paul himself). Why, then, does the church accept it as a truth today and force Paul's epistles to say the opposite of the very thing he demonstrated he was staying loyal to? Because they're not adhering to the leaven from heaven, but the leaven of the Pharisees, the religious authority who taught things because it had traditionally been doctrine, despite it being in disaccord with the law and the prophets, in disagreement with truth/actuality, to the point that it denied their own Messiah. And that's what's happening today: for Jesus did say,
Matthew 23:1-3 (NIV)
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Jesus said obey what's read from Moses' seat. The Pharisees weren't obeying Moses. They were obeying doctrines and traditions of men. (Ergo, Matthew 15:1-20).
So, no, Galatians 3:13-14 is not identifying God's Law as the "curse" that we were freed from. The interpretation that allows for consistency is this: there is literally a curse written in the law, accompanied by a bitter drink (which we deserved to drink, but Jesus graciously drank for us). The scroll (which the priest would write a curse on) and its bitter drink, are a part of the jealousy offering described in Numbers 5:11-31. These were the procedures for when the husband suspected his wife of infidelity. And if she had been unfaithful, she would suffer that curse. I posted a video in the past that described and compared how Jesus on the cross fulfilled this curse specifically: The Cup & The Ordinances. Whatever that "curse ritual" represented, the real thing was endured by Jesus, which Israel deserved to endure for being unfaithful.
Yes, the Galatians were trying to earn justification by obeying the law, but obeying the law in and of itself, is not the issue—as we see from Paul's clear example, how he lived upon converting.
God's timing is amazing. I had a conversation on YouTube with another believer recently, and out of it, God finally pinpointed the problem, the passages people are not interpreting in light of each other (though they should) and that's leading to distortions of Paul's writings:
Put it this way: when a bunch of Pharisees think "obeying the law" is what justifies them, it's not prudent to get circumcised with them around (thus, Titus in Galatians 2:3, refusing to get circumcised). The Pharisees must be proven wrong: how? Show them, I am justified by believing in Jesus, not by obeying the law of Moses, thus I'm not getting circumcised to prove it.
But when people start thinking that you teach, "don't keep Moses anymore", that's when you start scheduling sacrifices in the temple (i.e Paul in Acts 21:19-26).
Both groups of people were wrong; it's neither: "Moses done away with" nor "obey the law to be saved". All that the disciples are highlighting is WHO/WHAT justifies us: not the law, but our belief in Jesus. That does not mean that the laws have been done away with.
This is especially true when we still have prophecies—even the very apostle John's prophecy—suggesting a temple building will be up in Jerusalem, with courtyards, in the holy city, aside from its worshipers (so aside from the spiritual body of believers) i.e. Revelation 11:1-2. We cannot ignore Zechariah 14 about cooking sacrifices in that future temple, nor Ezekiel 40 describing in detail the rooms and tables where the animal sacrifices will be prepared and cooked.
That these prophecies involved foreigners, not living amongst the Israelites, is what proves these prophecies are talking about a time under the new covenant. All the Gentile nations who fought against Jerusalem will have to come to Jerusalem, year after year. They're making pilgrimages every year, to Jerusalem, to observe the Feast of Tabernacles—or else YHWH will send them no rain. Has that happened yet? No. [...]
All the more "amazing timing" because we're about to enter the New Year on God's calendar, Abib/Nisan, the month of Passover which is immediately followed by the feast of unleavened bread that calls for us to rid our homes of leaven prior to it (and ridding ourselves of Pharisaical leaven is exactly what I intend to do with this post). Not a coincidence that Meili bumped up this topic when she did. There is old Pharisaical leaven in here that is fermenting in the guild and can lead people astray. On the one hand it exposes a lot of White's prophecies for the lies they are. But in the process it's making stabs at biblical doctrine that is actually true. Not good.
A few more examples:
David Cloud
The Good News of Christ is not salvation through grace which produces the works of the law.
Actually, it is...
And that does not deny that our sins are imputed onto Jesus. The Holy Spirit—who is also an act of grace / a favor from God which we receive and do not deserve—desires to do just that.
Ezekiel 36:27 (NIV)
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
Romans 8:7-9(NIV)
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
David Cloud
Those who persist in placing themselves under the Mosaic law in spite of clear N.T. teaching are outside of true salvation.
According to him, Paul is "outside of true salvation". Scheduling sacrifices. Circumcising Timothy (Acts 16:1-3). Keeping Pentecost (doing his best to observe it, in Jerusalem, i.e. Acts 20:16). Old Testament laws. Pentecost also involves sacrifice in Jerusalem. He's doing them after converting, while under the new covenant. Doing demonstrations, at the temple, to convince people he's still living in obedience to the law (again, Paul continuing to schedule sacrifices in Acts 21:19-26).
I expect that, by now, you must see the instability going on here with such an interpretation of Paul's words. The sources quoted in this topic twist Paul's writings. They have Paul falsely accusing himself (the "Paul" of the Book of Galatians accusing the "Paul" of the Book of Acts of trying justify himself by the law merely for continuing to live in adherence to the Law of Moses: circumcising people and scheduling sacrifices in the temple, in obedience to the Law of Moses, after Jesus' once and for all sacrifice). I'll post below, in another reply, how and where, the church has gone terribly wrong in their handling Paul's epistles and the details they overlook or distort. Thankfully, YHWH led me to explain the passages to Chrissy in PM's already, so for whoever is interested, I'll just copy and paste into here as well (though I think I'll post it as a separate topic too in the scripture interpretation subforum):
Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:20 pm
note: there are a total of 12 details.
About Days We Can Keep (Romans 14 & others):
There are a total of seven details in this section.
- Detail #1: Paul does not allow believers to be convinced in their own minds, but judges them over the days they want to keep. Is this surprising to you? Because it was to me.
Quote:
Galatians 4:8-11 (NIV)
8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces[a]? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.
Footnotes:
a. Galatians 4:9 Or principles
He's not allowing the Galatians to be convinced in their own minds. He's not allowing the Galatians to esteem special days and months and seasons and years the way they want. Paul starts judging them and speaking negatively about what they chose to observe. It wasn't a disputable matter in Paul's mind (so, whatever he's referring to in Romans 14:1, about "quarreling over disputable matters", this is not one of them. This is not disputable to Paul, but something he strongly feels should not be done, at all, by believers. Paul, the way most people interpret Romans 14, is not doing what he said to do in Romans 14:22, "So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God." He's doing the opposite, on a grand scale: writing letters about it, to be read and shared by others (not just leaving it up to God's knowing only), but to a whole group of believers. A church. So, whatever observances Paul condemns in Galatians 4, it is not the same kind of observance he's addressing in Romans 14. He's against one, but not the other. Telling us to not judge one, but, by his example, judge the others. What can that difference be?
First to define what he's against: and a note: I will admit that the Galatians also had a problem of wanting to be justified by the law instead of by their belief. But that's not all I noted: when we compare Galatians 4 to Colossians 2, we get a fuller picture of what it is Paul truly condemns.
- Detail #2: notice the same "forces" mentioned in Galatians 4:9 is repeated in Colossians 2:20.
Quote:
Colossians 2:18, 20-23 (NIV)
18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind.
[...]
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
Thus, these worldly rules are what Paul is condemning in both Galatians and Colossians, and what the Galatians had gone back to. These are traditions and worldly philosophies that people impose upon themselves, that sound very religious, but were never commanded by God and violate God's laws (God's Law does not allow us to worship angels, nor treat our bodies harshly in our worship of him: contrast that to self-flagellation done in Catholic churches [link] and the Yazidis who worship the Peacock Angel named "Melek Taus" [link].
So, in verses 16-17, when Paul says, "16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ" (NIV) the implication here is: you want to observe God's sabbaths, don't let anyone judge you, because these are Christ-centered, they are truthful, and prophetic—unlike these other useless, human rules, that mankind invents and imposes upon themselves.
Next detail:
Detail #3: None of what you find in God's Law fits under the label: "human commands and teachings". They're the opposite. Jesus makes a clear distinction between the two (God's Law / The Law of Moses vs. traditions of men that nullify God's laws). He speaks the same as Paul, or rather, Paul speaks the same as Jesus (and this, amongst other things, is what we died to, were set free from, along with Christ: the world's rules, man-made traditions that nullify God's laws):
Quote:
Matthew 15:3-9 (NIV)
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[b] 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’[c]” Footnotes:
Matthew 15:4 Exodus 20:12; Deut. 5:16 Matthew 15:4 Exodus 21:17; Lev. 20:9 Matthew 15:9 Isaiah 29:13
Quote:
Colossians 2:20 (NIV)
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules:
Jesus does not want us breaking God's commands (the ones written in the Law of Moses), and is suggesting we should keep them (outright saying that in Matthew 23:1-3); so, God's laws are not the human traditions and commands that Jesus, Paul and Isaiah speak against. The Old Testament, as well, tells us God's commands are not of human origin:
Quote:
Exodus 31:18 (NIV)
18 When the Lord finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the covenant law, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.
Quote:
Deuteronomy 9:10 (NIV)
10 The Lord gave me two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God. On them were all the commandments the Lord proclaimed to you on the mountain out of the fire, on the day of the assembly.
Quote:
Leviticus 11 (NIV)
11 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3 You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud.
Quote:
Exodus 16:23, 26 (NIV)
23 He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’”
[...]
26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”
None of what we find in the written Torah can be called "human rules and teachings" / "traditions of men" / "the world's rules". What's found in the written Torah are God's laws. God is unlike the world. Their rules/commands are not the same. Neither Jesus nor Paul speak against God's laws, but self-imposed traditions of men that contradict God's laws.
And if Isaiah is condemning human rules and traditions on the one hand, yet is supporting God's laws on the other hand, that's further evidence that God's laws are not "merely human rules and traditions" and should be kept—or else reap the prophesied consequences.
Quote:
• Isaiah 66:17 (NIV)
17 “Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one who is among those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other unclean things—they will meet their end together with the one they follow,” declares the Lord.
It goes without saying, but we should not allow anyone to convince us that these, "special days, months, seasons and years", which Paul condemns in Galatians 4, is by extension condemning God's Holy Days, because...
Detail #4: Paul continued observing the weekly Sabbath (Acts 17:2); Passover, with Gentiles (1 Corinthians 5:7-8); and even Pentecost/Feast of Weeks (Acts 20:16).
Quote:
• Acts 17:2 (NIV)
2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Quote:
• 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 (NIV)
7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Quote:
• Acts 20:16 (NIV)
16 Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus to avoid spending time in the province of Asia, for he was in a hurry to reach Jerusalem, if possible, by the day of Pentecost.
Paul is not going to say, "to observe God's Holy appointments is wrong; now excuse me while I go observe the very thing I'm condemning".
Nor does he say, "don't judge believers for the days they observe, but I'm going to judge believers for the days they observe". That's overly simplified and ignores the details. In reality, Paul is saying, "don't allow others to judge you for keeping God's holy days", and "I will judge believers who keep—and are being enslaved back under—pagan/idolatrous/self-imposed traditions, traditions that nullify God's way and have believers walking in fleshly piety—not true, Holy-Spirit-driven, Christ-centered piety, that crucifies the desires of the flesh—but instead just gives the appearance of it.
Quote:
Colossians 2:23 (NIV)
23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
Quote:
Galatians 5:24-25 (NIV)
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Knowing what Paul truly condemns now, that only leaves one thing: what type of observances is there freedom to observe or not?
Pagan Days?
- Detail #5: Pagan days, that honor demons, are out of the question.
Quote:
1 Corinthians 10:18-22 (NIV)
18 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?
Conclusion: prohibited.
God's Days?
God's days, allowed of course. It depends on the temple's status, but Paul wouldn't have been referring to God's days in Romans 14:5 (be convinced in your own mind), since the temple was up in his days, and it was a definite "yes" for those in covenant with God—if they were ceremonially clean and not out of town, travelling, on the day it fell on. Not just definite "yes", but "come or else". If they were unclean or out of town (acceptable excuses), that individual's participation would be postponed by a month, but there's no "maybe I will participate" -attitude going on here. One's intention and effort had to be focused on observing it and doing your very best to be able to observe it on time. If you had no legitimate excuse, you'd be cut off from the community.
Quote:
Numbers 9:6 (NIV)
6 But some of them could not celebrate the Passover on that day because they were ceremonially unclean on account of a dead body. So they came to Moses and Aaron that same day
Quote:
Numbers 9:9-11 (NIV)
9 Then the Lord said to Moses, 10 “Tell the Israelites: ‘When any of you or your descendants are unclean because of a dead body or are away on a journey, they are still to celebrate the Lord’s Passover, 11 but they are to do it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight. They are to eat the lamb, together with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.
Quote:
Numbers 9:13-14 (NIV)
13 But if anyone who is ceremonially clean and not on a journey fails to celebrate the Passover, they must be cut off from their people for not presenting the Lord’s offering at the appointed time. They will bear the consequences of their sin.
14 “‘A foreigner residing among you is also to celebrate the Lord’s Passover in accordance with its rules and regulations. You must have the same regulations for both the foreigner and the native-born.’”
Notice: under the old covenant, it says, "foreigner residing among you". But under the new covenant, the obligation is no longer limited to foreigners living in the land of Israel only; foreigners living outside of Jerusalem must pilgrimage to observe it at its appointed time. According to Zechariah 14, all nations will be obligated to keep Feast of Tabernacles—even if we, as foreigners, don't live amongst the Israelites in Israel. ("choice" is technically involved, but the alternative is to receive plague, no rain, if we don't go up).
Quote:
• Zechariah 14:16-18 (NIV)
16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord[a] will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
Footnotes:
a. Zechariah 14:18 Or part, then the Lord
...without a temple in Jerusalem, however, no one can really keep it right now. The reason I say that Zechariah 14 describes "new covenant" observance: under the old covenant, only foreigners who lived in Israel were told they could observe passover, and optional at that. The Feast of Tabernacles/Booths, under the old covenant, on the otherhand, only obligates the native-born Israelites, and makes it a point to say "native-born Israelites" are to observe this; if it was for everyone, dwelling in Israel, to observe, then they shouldn't have made that distinction (I'll quote verse 42 specifically, so you see what I mean; but for the whole description of Tabernacles you can open up Leviticus 23:33-44. There's no mention of foreigners for Tabernacles).
Quote:
Passover
Exodus 12:48 (NIV)
48 “A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the Lord’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it.
Quote:
Feast of Tabernacles
Leviticus 23:42 (NIV)
42 Live in temporary shelters for seven days: All native-born Israelites are to live in such shelters
Under the new covenant then, at most—until we reach the time of Zechariah 14, of worldwide observance, coming to Jerusalem yearly—we can only keep the elements of the commands that say: don't work, abstain from leavened bread, we can offer spiritual sacrifices (prayer, praise, etc...) instead of literally cooking animal sacrifices (since we can't sacrifice outside of Jerusalem).
Conclusion: & Detail #6: God's Days we are obligated (thus commanded) to keep. Not optional. & Most definitely not prohibited.
What's Left?
So, by process of elimination, what we're at liberty to observe or not in Romans 14:5, under the new covenant, can only be referring to extra-biblical days (like the many days of fasting the Jews placed upon themselves [link] , or festivities like Hanukkah and Purim) that we can freely observe unto the Lord (without condemnation) or freely choose not to observe (without condemnation) because God neither commanded them nor prohibits them (and there's no paganism/idolatry/traces of demon worship involved). That's what we're free to be convinced about in our own minds.
Conclusion: & Detail #7: we're free to choose when it's about extra-biblical days that are not idolatrous / demonic / unlawful.
In a nutshell, the details people don't consider when deciding "what days can we keep" / "what days are condemned":
#1: Paul judges believers for the days they keep #2: there is a difference between "God's Laws" and "the human commands / traditions" which Paul speaks against in his epistles; #3 Jesus, Paul and Isaiah juxtapose "God's Laws" against "human commands"; they're not the same thing #4 Paul kept observing God's feasts days; they're not prohibited #5 Days that give honor to demons are out of the question #6 God's appointed days are not optional, but commanded, & most definitely not prohibited depending on whether or not there is a temple in Jerusalem, most elements can't be obeyed literally right now, but in the future we will be able to #7: extrabiblical days, that don't violate God's Law, are the only acceptable days we're allowed to be convinced about in our minds.
About The Law That Was Set Aside in Ephesians 2:
Moving on to Ephesians 2 then: there was so much to excavate here. I was already puzzled, before even getting to verse 15, because in verses 11-12 (& again in verse 19), at face value, Paul seems to be saying that Gentiles couldn't covenant with God or share in the promises.
Quote:
Ephesians 2:11-12 (NIV)
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
[...]
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,
Yet, prior to reaching this chapter, I had spent a great deal of time in the Old Testament and noticed:
Detail #8: Gentiles were covenanting with God, and having God make promises to them, and joining Israel long before Christ.
Abraham was a Gentile, born in Babylon / Ur of the Chaldees; he didn't wait for Christ's incarnation before he was brought close into covenant with God, to share in the promises of God.
Quote:
Genesis 15:6-7 (NIV)
6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
7 He also said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.”
Quote:
Genesis 15:18-19 (NIV)
18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi[a] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites,
Footnotes:
Genesis 15:18 Or river
After Abraham, in Moses' generation, there was a multitude of non-Israelites mentioned, that came out during the exodus from Egypt, along with the Israelites; thus, these Gentiles were amongst the Israelites when God descended on Mt. Sinai to give the commands / covenant with the people (ergo, Gentiles coming under covenant with God and sharing in the promises of that covenant).
Quote:
Exodus 12:37-38 (NIV)
37 The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Sukkoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. 38 Many other people went up with them, and also large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.
During Joshua's generation, after Moses dies, we have Rahab; she's a Gentile and she came under covenant with the Holy God of Israel to live amongst the Israelites.
Quote:
Joshua 6:25 (NIV)
25 But Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, with her family and all who belonged to her, because she hid the men Joshua had sent as spies to Jericho—and she lives among the Israelites to this day.
God commanded that we treat foreigners, who have come to live in Israel, as if they were native-born, living under the same laws.
Quote:
• Exodus 12:49 (NIV)
49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”
• Leviticus 16:29 (NIV)
29 “This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves[a] and not do any work—whether native-born or a foreigner residing among you—
Footnotes:
a. Leviticus 16:29 Or must fast; also in verse 31
• Leviticus 17:15 (NIV)
15 “‘Anyone, whether native-born or foreigner, who eats anything found dead or torn by wild animals must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be ceremonially unclean till evening; then they will be clean.
• Leviticus 18:26 (NIV)
26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things,
Getting back to Ephesians 2 then, here I am thinking, "Paul, what are you talking about? All these Gentiles were brought near to God before Christ came. What in the world are you referring to?" On paper, both Gentile and Israelite were brought into convenant and shared in promises. But—
Detail #9: whether Gentile or Israelite, mankind was hostile towards God's law, back then and today, thus needing to make peace with both those "who were far away and peace to those who were near" Eph 2:17 (NIV).
Quote:
• Leviticus 26:21 (NIV)
21 “‘If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve.
• Romans 8:7-9 (NIV)
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
God's law was not the dividing wall of hostility (because God's law always included Gentiles from the get go). The law of sin, in our flesh, is what keeps us—both Israelite and Gentile alike—in hostility towards God, divided from God, and divided against each other. The flesh has its own regulations contrary to God's. Thus, why Christ had to come: the nature in our flesh we inherited from Adam keeps us away, in rebellion and hostility towards God and his laws. He came to free us from that sinful nature.
Quote:
• Romans 7:25 (NIV)
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[a] a slave to the law of sin.
Footnotes:
a. Romans 7:25 Or in the flesh
Quote:
• Romans 6:6 (NIV)
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
Footnotes:
a. Romans 6:6 Or be rendered powerless
Quote:
Colossians 2:11 (NIV)
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[a] was put off when you were circumcised by[b] Christ,
Footnotes:
a. Colossians 2:11 In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit; also in verse 13. b. Colossians 2:11 Or put off in the circumcision of
We're suppose to be slaves to God's law like Paul. Dead to the nature we were born with, the fleshly, sinful nature, that is hostile towards God (and his law). Those who choose to stay in the flesh, as slaves to the flesh, and who choose to be guided by it, to please it, instead of pleasing the Spirit (which has a desire to walk in his law), stay hostile. There's no excuse anymore, however: he provided the way to come close to him again and rid the hostility: by giving us the Holy Spirit...
Quote:
Ezekiel 36:27 (NIV)
27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
On top of that, getting back to Ephesians 2 again, I noticed...
Detail #10: that five verses after Ephesians 2:15, Paul says our foundation is built upon the prophets too:
Quote:
Ephesians 2:20 (NIV)
20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
...the prophets are pretty adamant about keeping God's laws (sabbath observances and dietary distinctions of clean/unclean alike)
Quote:
• Ezekiel 22:26 (NIV)
26 Her priests do violence to my law and profane my holy things; they do not distinguish between the holy and the common; they teach that there is no difference between the unclean and the clean; and they shut their eyes to the keeping of my Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.
• Isaiah 65:2-4 (NIV)
2 All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations— 3 a people who continually provoke me to my very face, offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on altars of brick; 4 who sit among the graves and spend their nights keeping secret vigil; who eat the flesh of pigs, and whose pots hold broth of impure meat;
• Isaiah 56:6-7 (NIV)
6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord, and to be his servants, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant— 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
I had to consider the statement in Romans 14:20, that "all food is clean" to be sure I wasn't going crazy with some twisted interpretation. Are details being ignored here as well? Come to discover: Yes, indeed. People subconsciously read, "all animals" into the phrase "all food".
But...
Detail #11: Paul says his food is consecrated by the word of God (in 1 Timothy 4:5), not just by prayer, but by the Word of God, that means that he didn't consider all animals to be food for him, but what God in his Word set-apart as food .
Quote:
1 Timothy 4:3-5 (NIV)
3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
The areas of the Word of God that consecrate food for us, and that Paul would be referring to (since the New Testament wasn't compiled yet), is Leviticus 11, Deuteronomy 14:1-21 and Genesis 1:29.
Knowing that Paul still made clean/unclean distinctions between animals is what made me scrutinize the common passages people used to defend that we shouldn't make those distinctions any longer.
The vision of the unclean animals in the sheet, for example, which Peter saw three times. It apparently had nothing to do with eating animals, but accepting Gentiles who feared God and received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10). Had the vision been about, "eat all animals; they're all acceptable now", Peter would not have spent so much time thinking about the vision's true meaning.
Quote:
Acts 10:9-17 (NIV)
9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
17 While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate.
Detail #12: Had the vision been communicating a straighforward: "go ahead, eat bacon, vulture, human and rats", Peter would not have needed to wonder.
It's not acceptable to eat those things, according to the law and prophets, and Paul's own teachings. The true meaning of the vision is revealed by the Holy Spirit to Peter in verse 34-35.
Quote:
Acts 10:34-35 (NIV)
34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.
And his suspicions are confirmed by what happens later in verses 44-48.
Quote:
Acts 10:44-48 (NIV)
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Footnotes:
a. Acts 10:46 Or other languages
God was consecrating the Gentiles who fear him by giving them the Holy Spirit.
Another popular example, which people use to support that "eat all animals" is New Testament doctrine, is the gospels stating that Jesus declared all foods clean. Well, now that we know what "food" is, Jesus was not talking about all animals. But everything that God consecrates as food is clean. Why would he need to state this should-be-obvious fact to anyone knowing the law? Because the Pharisees had this tradition: that if we don't participate in the netilat yadayim (hand washing) ritual prior to eating, the person becomes unclean/defiled all of a sudden (in Matthew 15/Mark 7)—which was a lie and a self-imposed tradition, one the Pharisees made up.
Quote:
Mark 7:1-4 (NIV)
7 The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus 2 and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. 3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.[a])
Footnotes:
Mark 7:4 Some early manuscripts pitchers, kettles and dining couches
Jesus' conclusion:
Quote:
Matthew 15:20 (NIV)
20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”
Like I mentioned in my comment on the article, Jesus is adamant about teaching the crowds and his disciples to adhere to the Law of Moses / God's law too, even when the religious authority in charge of teaching/preaching it, starts nullifying it, instead of putting it into practice.
So, in a nutshell: when considering what is "the law" that brought about so much hostility and divided people from each other and from God, we must consider two main ones really (though I noted other important details):
#8 - Gentiles were covenanting with the Holy God of Israel—and having God make promises to them, and joining Israel—long before Christ. God's Law allowed Gentiles to come in and share of the blessings of being in covenant with Him.
#9 - that Paul's epistles, though not clearly delineated everytime, makes reference to at least two laws: the law of the flesh VS. the law of God; the law of their flesh, with its regulations, brought hostility to both the circumcised and uncircumcised people, separating them from God. The flesh was hostile towards God and his law. Those walking in the flesh could not submit to it. And that hostility stayed because of mankind's sinful nature; that fleshly nature has always been the problem, doesn't matter if you were near God and entrusted with his divine revelation (Israelites) or far from God (Gentiles, not living in Israel). Thus why both groups of people needed to be reconciled.
And those are the details, that once considered, drastically change our interpretation of Paul's epistles; those details allow Paul to be in agreement with himself, his other writings, and what the other disciples describe Paul doing (for instance, scheduling sacrifices after Jesus offers himself once and for all, in Acts 21:19-26), that allows Paul to be in agreement with the rest of the prophets, and with Jesus words. Peter warned us that Paul's epistles are difficult to understand (2 Peter 3:15-17) and that ignorant and unstable people were distorting his writings to live lawless. And this lengthy post is an attempt to communicate some of the details the Holy Spirit has allowed me to see. He's dropped the scales from my eyes that Satan and his minions have worked so hard to put up. I'm sure Satan has some of his children working on theology. They want to make us interpret God's Word in ways that violate God's Law to keep us divided and in hostility towards our Heavenly Father. Jesus came to undo that corrupt behavior and hostility.
If you made it to this part my post, I thank you, as well, for putting up with my lengthy explanations and tendency to go on tangents, lol, especially if you've already met with some [or all...?] of this information from my other replies in the guild. It was a challenge to organize this post because these thoughts exists as "dots" in my head that connect only when I need to make a decision or interpret verses as I read.
In short, I've come to learn that if there is an "apparent" contradiction, then faulty interpretation is present, or assumptions are being made about a verse, being read into a verse or is forcefully being jammed to fit a certain theology; otherwise, scripture gels perfectly with other portions of scripture.
May God open our eyes to the wonders of his law. May he humble our hearts to trust him and his words, all of his words. May he give us discernment, as he sees fit, eyes to see what he's doing with our lives, all those areas of our lives that we may interpret as "failures", but that are just what he needs (to affect the other pawns of his chess board in just the right way)—and give us inner peace and the grace to put up with the troubles of today, the fear of man, and the fear of death.
real eyes realize
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Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:43 pm
That said, continuing with statements made by David Cloud.
David Cloud
The sabbath was given, not to mankind in general, but to Israel alone as a special covenant sign between her and God (Ex. 31:13,17).
Romans 9:6 (NIV)
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
Isaiah 14:1 (NIV)
14 The Lord will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Foreigners will join them and unite with the descendants of Jacob.
Yeah, it was given to Israel. Israel is the one getting saved. Are we, the Foreigners who unite with them, a part of it (in accord with scripture)? Or not?
David Cloud
If the sabbath had been kept by mankind in general from the creation, it could not have been given as a special sign to Israel.
Actually, the Sabbath could still have been given to Israel, as a special sign, after being given to mankind in general. Remember, mankind rebelled against YHWH, their creator, and against his instructions. Once humanity starts doing their own thing, not God's things, setting apart a group of people to carry out your instructions, as originally intended, would make them set-apart from the rest. Simple analogy: Daddy says wear blue on the seventh day of the week. Nobody does it. Abram, come over here... you and your descendants, wear blue every seventh day—and here, take these along with you too, all these other decrees that will keep you set-apart. Inherent in the fourth commandment is a statement about who created the heavens and the earth. Not the Gentile's idols, but YHWH. This is just as much about YHWH as it is about Israel being a set-apart nation. And more.
Why do you think YHWH exiled Israel for 70 years? For not keeping the Sabbaths (nor his land sabbath). If they're going to behave like the world, he's going to expel them back out to the world because they're not carrying out their purpose: show the world what I want done; adhere to me, communicate my character, my laws, to them. Otherwise, get out. I'm tempted to say He vomits them out (because of Revelation 3:16), but the land vomits them out.
2 Chronicles 36:21 (NIV)
21 The land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested, until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah.
Jeremiah 29:10 (NIV)
10 This is what the Lord says: “When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my good promise to bring you back to this place.
Leviticus 26:34 (NIV)
34 Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths.
Leviticus 18:25 (NIV)
25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants.
Leviticus 20:22 (NIV)
22 “‘Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out.
Nehemiah 13:17-8 (NIV)
17 I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day?18 Didn’t your ancestors do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity on us and on this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.”
Why is YHWH so interested in the land getting a sabbath, if it's a mere sign of an Israelite, a person in covenant with him? It just goes to show that he doesn't grasp the meaning of YHWH's laws at all. It's not a mere jersey you wear to say whose team you're on (that is also one of its functions but not its most important). More importantly, it's for the well-being of his creation—the land included—that he gives these commands in the first place (physical protection: in the form of rest, no work; and spiritual protection: it declares that the real Living God is YHWH, who created the heavens and the earth in six days and rested on the seventh; He is God; thus, securing them from idolatry, the spiritual danger that leads people into lies).
Deuteronomy 10:12-13 (NIV)
12 And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?
Look what at happened to Adam and Eve: they transgressed YHWH's instructions and ALL of creation got affected. And I'm not just referring to Romans 8:19-23, which explicitly says that, but in the very Genesis account itself: the land was cursed too.
Romans 8:19-23 (NIV)
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[a] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
Footnotes:
a. Romans 8:21 Or subjected it in hope. 21 For
Genesis 3:17-18 (NIV)
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.
About the allegation that the patriarchs had the law prior to Moses: there are hints of this. Is he going to argue too that the dietary laws were given only to Israel? What excuse, then, does he have for Noah obeying those commands in Genesis, before an Israelite ever existed (let alone before Moses existed)? before Jacob (Israel) walked the earth at all...?
Genesis 7:2 (NIV)
2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate,
Genesis 7:8 (NIV)
8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground,
Genesis 8:20 (NIV)
20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it.
What is Abraham obeying?
Genesis 26:5 (NIV)
5 because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.”
David Cloud
According to the N.T. epistles, the sabbath question has no relevance to the church. In all the instruction God gave the churches in the epistles, there is only one mention of the sabbath-- Col. 2:16--and that one mention was only to show that it is not binding upon N.T. believers.
Liar, liar, pants on fire ~ ♫
Hebrews 4:9 (NIV)
9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
Only Colossians 2:16? Hebrews is an epistle too. That he even quoted from later on. And he's distorting Colossians 2. If you read the spoiler above, you'll see why.
It's actually defending people who want to obey God's sabbaths because they actually have prophetic significance (Jesus)—what the creator would do, did, and has yet to do. Unlike the self-imposed traditions that man places upon themselves, that were never commanded by God, and actually violate his laws (worship of angels, harsh treatment of the body, etc...).
I noticed how he tried to be sly and limit that statement to the epistles only. Because had he left it open, to the rest of the New Testament, or took a gander at the Book of Acts, they have a lot to say about the literal weekly Sabbath. The Book of Acts especially: it was taken for granted that Gentiles will go to synagogue and learn the law of Moses. They would not learn it all at once, immediately upon converting. Thus, "not making it difficult".
Acts 15:19-21 (NIV)
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
Abstaining from eating the meat of strangled animals and from blood is the Law of Moses. It is YHWH's Law. And these commands are not an option. They're not at liberty to say, "you know what, I'm not bound by the Law of Moses, I can eat that roadkill." They're not giving the Gentiles a choice here. If we obey this Law of Moses, are we trying to justify ourselves under the law? No. And yet, this is the type instability people have when handling the Law of Moses and which parts to obey. Their own interpretations nullifies other areas of scripture. We obey whatever applies to us and whatever can be kept without the the temple in Jerusalem. Temple-related commands / Jerusalem-specific commands (like sacrificing animals and their blood) can't be kept by us out here. Only in Spirit—spiritual sacrifices like praise, prayer, and openly professing his name [Psalm 54:6;Psalm 141:2;Hebrews 13:15]—but not flesh and blood sacrifices, like they're prophesied to continue doing in the future (as I detailed in the spoiler above).
David Cloud
The SDA, in their writings, place great importance upon it.
I will say one thing about the cult that I will highly applaud: thanks for bringing attention to the biblical Sabbath. Though not the only ones, they're certainly the people known for popularizing it in Christian circles. And though worshiping on Sunday is biblical (not prohibited), Sunday is not the Sabbath (it's a lie to suggest otherwise; & to suggest otherwise calls for you to contradict biblical definitions). Jesus rose on the first day of the week (Sunday), not on the Sabbath.
Matthew 28:1 (NIV)
28 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
You can't assign that name (Sabbath) to any day of your liking.
It's sad that the cults are usually the ones who discover lost biblical doctrines—and "lost" in the sense that people no longer obey what God commanded because of false doctrine that become popular amongst believers—"lost" doctrines that are very true, but because of the cult's gross distortion and falsities in other areas, that truth gets tossed out as well. Thank God for Paul telling us to test all things.
I applaud the Jehovah's Witnesses too for standing firm against paganism and against using pagan ways to worship the Most High God. I don't applaud that they reduce Jesus to an archangel though.
Hold to what is good. Sadly, these articles do not do that.
Meili Kyumee Youichi
To conclude Seventh-day Adventist Church is not right?
Not in everything.
Read my replies above.
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:18 am
real eyes realize
Marius, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, seeing as this post is two years old (lol). How much of your second post was you speaking, I'm not sure (were you simply "copying and pasting" commentary from an article?)
Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt. I will admit that much of it was copying and pasting, but that I did hold to it being true. Not because it was necessarily true but because of the experience I personally have had with the SDA and I was guilty of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I see now after talking to someone (who said the Law was bad) that God would not contradict Himself and that inability or desire not to keep the Law doesn't mean that the Law is bad - but that we are bad. With the holy Spirit the Law is written on our hearts and that is is not a different Law then the one the Israelites received;
Jeremiah 31:33 "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Leaven is a bad thing.
Galatians 5:9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough."
A little ruins the whole batch. I would like to apologize for leading people to think that the Law is bad. It was because I was careless in my interpretation. The fault was entirely my own.
My experience with SDA left me a little paranoid. I received in the mail an invite to join a Bible study through someone who called themselves The Norwegian Bible Institute, and it was not until I had completed the course and I was sent a book by Ellen Gold White that I did some research and discovered who they were. They hid their identity behind a rather inconspicuous name until they thought I was ready to join their church. From what I have read about other peoples experience with SDA this is not an uncommon practice.
Garland-Green
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Garland-Green
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Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:32 am
real eyes realize
This is especially true when we still have prophecies—even the very apostle John's prophecy—suggesting a temple building will be up in Jerusalem, with courtyards, in the holy city, aside from its worshipers (so aside from the spiritual body of believers) i.e. Revelation 11:1-2. We cannot ignore Zechariah 14 about cooking sacrifices in that future temple, nor Ezekiel 40 describing in detail the rooms and tables where the animal sacrifices will be prepared and cooked.
That these prophecies involved foreigners, not living amongst the Israelites, is what proves these prophecies are talking about a time under the new covenant. All the Gentile nations who fought against Jerusalem will have to come to Jerusalem, year after year. They're making pilgrimages every year, to Jerusalem, to observe the Feast of Tabernacles—or else YHWH will send them no rain. Has that happened yet? No.
If Jesus was a perfect sacrifice, the once and for all sacrifice why would it be necessary in the future to establish temple sacrifice again? Just asking because it is something that troubles me. Not trying to be difficult or anything.
Hebrews 10 New International Version (NIV)
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All 10 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’”
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” 17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.
A Call to Persevere in Faith 19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,
“In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.” 38 And,
“But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.”
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
If they are an annual reminder of sin could Zechariah 14 be the nations that exists around the Heavenly Jerusalem during the Millennium thus ending temple sacrifice with the end of the Millennium?
Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:46 pm
Garland-Green
real eyes realize
This is especially true when we still have prophecies—even the very apostle John's prophecy—suggesting a temple building will be up in Jerusalem, with courtyards, in the holy city, aside from its worshipers (so aside from the spiritual body of believers) i.e. Revelation 11:1-2. We cannot ignore Zechariah 14 about cooking sacrifices in that future temple, nor Ezekiel 40 describing in detail the rooms and tables where the animal sacrifices will be prepared and cooked.
That these prophecies involved foreigners, not living amongst the Israelites, is what proves these prophecies are talking about a time under the new covenant. All the Gentile nations who fought against Jerusalem will have to come to Jerusalem, year after year. They're making pilgrimages every year, to Jerusalem, to observe the Feast of Tabernacles—or else YHWH will send them no rain. Has that happened yet? No.
If Jesus was a perfect sacrifice, the once and for all sacrifice why would it be necessary in the future to establish temple sacrifice again? Just asking because it is something that troubles me. Not trying to be difficult or anything.
Hebrews 10 New International Version (NIV)
Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All 10 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’”
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” 17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.
A Call to Persevere in Faith 19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For,
“In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.” 38 And,
“But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.”
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
If they are an annual reminder of sin could Zechariah 14 be the nations that exists around the Heavenly Jerusalem during the Millennium thus ending temple sacrifice with the end of the Millennium?
Q #1: If Jesus was a perfect sacrifice, the once and for all sacrifice why would it be necessary in the future to establish temple sacrifice again?
Well, as Hebrews 10 suggests, those animal sacrifices never actually took sin away—and yet, they were still done.
Hebrews 10:4 (NIV)
4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
The sacrifices spoke prophetically of the body that would atone for their sins.
In Romans 3:25, even though I'm not 100% sure about every sin being referred to here (in the sense of what those sins are, specifically, that weren't punished), I would say that Paul seems to be hinting at how animals did not atone for anything, thus our need for Christ...
Romans 3:25 (NIV)
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
Footnotes:
a. Romans 3:25 The Greek for sacrifice of atonement refers to the atonement cover on the ark of the covenant (see Lev. 16:15,16).
Despite offering animals, the animal blood never took sins away (nor cleansed our conscience).
So, knowing that these animal sacrifices weren't really atoning for their sins back then (nor wiping their conscience clean), then the animal sacrifices are not atoning for anything now, nor will they in the future. Never have, never will.
To answer your question then ("what purpose would these animal sacrifices serve during the 1000 year reign?"): the same purpose they have always served: a prophetic "sticky note" (reminder), in the form of a ritual/physical example, commemorating "what God has already done" while, at the same time, declaring "what God will do". For instance, passover: this feast commemorates the time when God's deadly wrath "passed over" his people; his wrath didn't touch them because they had the blood of the passover lamb on their doorposts. There's also a prophetic application to passover—whether or not that current generation fully realized what it meant at the time, there was a prophetic application—the blood of the suffering servant, the Lamb of God, who would be sacrificed as their "passover" / pesach (to them it was still future, to us it is in the past), whose blood will save God's people from his impending wrath once again. We don't deserve to be saved. Neither did they; they (and we) just believed the way to salvation and partook of the sacrifice accordingly, just like the Israelites in Egypt, and thus were saved if they stayed inside the house covered by the blood.
Exodus 12:22-23 (NIV)
22 Take a bunch of hyssop, dip it into the blood in the basin and put some of the blood on the top and on both sides of the doorframe. None of you shall go out of the door of your house until morning. 23 When the Lord goes through the land to strike down the Egyptians, he will see the blood on the top and sides of the doorframe and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down.
...until the dawning of the new day. Thus why we're told to remain in Jesus. He's our "Noah's ark", he's our Levitical "City of Refuge": stay inside or die.
And the same applies to the Feast of Tabernacles which even Gentile nations are expected, by God, to observe in the time of Zechariah 14:
What the Feast of Tabernacles originally commemorates is an act YHWH already did:
Leviticus 23:40-43 (NIV)
40 On the first day you are to take branches from luxuriant trees—from palms, willows and other leafy trees—and rejoice before the Lord your God for seven days. 41 Celebrate this as a festival to the Lord for seven days each year. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come; celebrate it in the seventh month. 42 Live in temporary shelters for seven days: All native-born Israelites are to live in such shelters 43 so your descendants will know that I had the Israelites live in temporary shelters when I brought them out of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.’”
So, on the way to the promised land, after God brought them out of Egypt, he made them dwell in tents (not permanent homes since it was a journey, and they were itinerant, going from place to place); and because of that he wants this aspect of the journey commemorated once a year by dwelling in a temporary tent, in Jerusalem, for seven days at the appointed time.
Inspecting the Feast of Tabernacles a little more closely: it lasts for seven days, but there's an eighth day included, at the end, as a day of sabbath rest (though they still sacrifice on that eighth day).
Leviticus 23:33-36 (NIV)
33 The Lord said to Moses, 34 “Say to the Israelites: ‘On the fifteenth day of the seventh month the Lord’s Festival of Tabernacles begins, and it lasts for seven days. 35 The first day is a sacred assembly; do no regular work. 36 For seven days present food offerings to the Lord, and on the eighth day hold a sacred assembly and present a food offering to the Lord. It is the closing special assembly; do no regular work.
As it said in verses 42-43 earlier, they would live in booths/tabernacles, temporary shelters made out of palm branches ("sukkoth" in hebrew, thus why the feast goes by "Sukkot" as well); they would stay in those temporary shelters instead of their houses throughout the feast, and this in the presence of God (the reason why they would have to come to Jerusalem to observe this).
Deuteronomy 16:16 (NIV)
16 Three times a year all your men must appear before the Lord your God at the place he will choose: at the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the Festival of Weeks and the Festival of Tabernacles. No one should appear before the Lord empty-handed:
One of the future applications of the Feast of Tabernacles—one that Moses' generation I don't think understood / couldn't foresee, but who knows (God knows), maybe Moses knew: God "tabernacle"-ing with us, as Jesus, "God with Us" a.k.a. Immanuel (even being born on the Feast of Tabernacles—which is one of reasons why I go with that theory for his "birthday"). YHWH uses His Divine appointments to carry out his plan: just like Jesus, who was our passover Lamb, being sacrificed exactly on the day of passover; just like His Spirit being given to the believers on the day of Pentecost—the same time Moses received the tablets of stone in the past—"coinciding" with the Holy Spirit's role of writing God's laws on the tablets of our hearts).
After Jesus' tabernacling with us, there's still more prophetic application. We are dwelling in temporary shelters (corruptible bodies), in bondage to sin which he's taking us out of, on the way to being restored to the promised land (New Jerusalem), back to the tree of Life, like the Garden of Eden. In incorruptible bodies.
2 Corinthians 5:1-2 (NIV)
5 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling,
Likewise, Abraham was brought into Canaan (Jerusalem); God promised that land to him and his descendants. His descendants went into slavery in Egypt for 400-something years, until the land was ready to be dispossessed of its sinful inhabitants, and Abraham's descendants would inherit the land of Canaan (the promised land; literally the land God promised to Abraham and his descendants). On the way there, they dwelled in sukkoth, temporary tents. We are going back to the promised land, ultimately the New Jerusalem, which contains the tree of life, seeing God face to face once again. The meek will inherit the earth.
Since YHWH created a 7-day week, the "eighth day" is considered "the new day". And this new day will be a sabbath, a day of rest for everyone, for all of creation (thus Sabbaths for the land, and the weekly sabbath including rest for our animals).
Revelation 21:4 (NIV)
4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[a] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
Footnotes:
a. Revelation 21:4 Isaiah 25:8
Romans 8:20-23 (NIV)
20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[a] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
Isaiah 65:25 (NIV)
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,” says the Lord.
Thus the new day (new heavens, new earth) which will come after Jesus' millennial reign (going by the timeline in the Book of Revelation which I'll get into); during the millennial reign everyone would be celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles every year, having to come up to Jerusalem). What this feast will be symbolizing during the millennial reign itself: once this 1000-year period is over, the new day begins, the time when we'll be able to tabernacle with the Father in the new Heavens, new Earth, no temporary temple necessary.
Jesus hands the reign back to the Father after the 1000-year reign,
1 Corinthians 15:23-24 (NIV)
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:27-28 (NIV)
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[a] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Corinthians 15:27 Psalm 8:6
And if you read the details of the sacrifices offered during Tabernacles (in Numbers 29:12-40) there's one less bull offered with each passing day—reminds me of the new year count down (13 bulls [1st day]...12 bulls [2nd day]...11 bulls [3rd day]...10 bulls [4th day]...9 bulls [5th day]...8 bulls [6th day]...7 bulls [7th day]...1 bull [8th day] lol). I feel like there's more to this; but I haven't realized it / received revelation about it yet (or maybe I never will, or not until it happens?). The ram and year-old male lambs stay at a fixed number throughout the festivity though, until you get to the eighth day (alongside the bull offerings, YHWH called for 2 rams and 14 one-year-old male lambs, all perfect/without defect, but on the eighth day he called for 1 ram and 7 one-year-old male lambs, all perfect/without defect, alongside the bull offering). I'm not sure what's being communicated with the rams and lambs (or even the bulls to be quite honest; the countdown thing is peculiar though).
So, in a nutshell: the Old Testament Feast Days / holy days and sacrifices: (1) commemorate events done by God and (2) prophesy about future ones yet to be done by God.
By obeying the ritual in the past, without Christ having incarnated yet, people displayed that they believed in God's way to be reconciled to him (even though the very ritual itself wasn't what reconciled them, and the actual thing that atoned for them hadn't manifested yet) and they would stay in his mercy for complying with it (not atoned for/reconciled yet, but in his mercy, so wrath withheld), because it represented the actual thing that would atone for mankind and, in spirit, they were accepting it without having seen it manifested yet). For us, since it has already manifested, and we have been forgiven, the commemoration and prophetic aspects of it is what stayed the same. It was a "reminder of sin" for those who hadn't been atoned for yet; but to us, it's a reminder of who cleansed us from our sins and gave us a clean conscience. Had they continued to be reminders of sin for those in Christ, Paul would've stopped all observance of sacrifices and feast days the moment he converted, and yet that's not the case as I showed in my previous replies—he continues with sacrifices and Feast Day observances.
The question on everybody's minds should be: Why did we need the Levitical Priestood, at all, if the order of Melchizedek, which Jesus is operating under as we speak, was around during Abram's day? It's not a new priesthood.
Genesis 14:18-19 (NIV)
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth.
Hebrews 6:20 (NIV)
20 where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 7:11 (NIV)
11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?
The Levitical Priesthood, to me, sounds like performance art—much needed performance art—to teach the people God's ways in a way they could see (because the Heavenly Tabernacle which they represent, we can't see).
Hebrews 8:5 (NIV)
5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a]
Footnotes:
a. Hebrews 8:5 Exodus 25:40
The Levitical priesthood is commanded directly by God and prophesied to exist at end times (I'm already seeing hints of the Levitical Priesthood getting reinstated, considering how Israel started training Levite priests last year for passover: Israeli Institute Prepares Priests for Jerusalem's Third Temple). It's not the way to acquire a clean conscience and be cleansed of all your sins, but there's no denying that it still serves a purpose (not to atone for sins, but to teach God's way, keep his miracles in our consciousness, remind us of his works and what he has yet to do).
Q #2: If they are an annual reminder of sincould Zechariah 14 be the nations that exists around the Heavenly Jerusalem during the Millennium thus ending temple sacrifice with the end of the Millennium?
First, "no" to them still being an annual reminder of sin; at that point, it'll be an annual reminder of what saved them from their sins and wiped their consciences clean—Jesus' sacrifice. Sacrificing for sins won't be done. Jesus was it. Sacrificing for commemorative purposes, I'm sure will continue. And there are things like peace offerings a.k.a. fellowship offerings (that were never about atoning for sin)—aside from the burnt offering, the grain offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering. The peace/fellowship types of sacrifices are detailed in Leviticus 3. The rest are described through Leviticus chapters 1-5.
Second, if you're suggesting that Zechariah 14 describes Jesus' millenial reign and the Heavenly Jerusalem at the same time, then no (?) to that too. I put a question mark because I'm unsure about how to interpret the Timeline. In light of the Book of Revelation, then it doesn't sound like the Heavenly Jerusalem has descended in Zechariah 14.
Detail #1: The Heavenly Jerusalem descends onto the new heavens and the new earth—a new earth which does not appear until after Jesus' millennial reign (according to the Book of Revelation).
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Footnotes:
a. Revelation 20:4 Or God; I also saw those who
- one verse later, describes the time when the 1000 years are over (Revelation 20:7)
Revelation 20:7 (NIV)
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
- four verses later, this earth disappears (Revelation 20:11).
Revelation 20:11 (NIV)
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
- next chapter, new heavens, new earth appears (Revelation 21:1) - Heavenly Jerusalem finally descends (Revelation 21:2)
Revelation 21:1-2 (NIV)
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Footnotes:
a. Revelation 21:1 Isaiah 65:17
Again, concisely:
- Jesus' 1000-year reign happens (Revelation 20:4-6); - 1000 years are over (Revelation 20:7) - This earth disappears (Revelation 20:11). - new heavens, new earth appears (Revelation 21:1) - Heavenly Jerusalem finally descends onto the new earth (Revelation 21:2)
So, according to the Book of Revelation, the Heavenly Jerusalem is not present during the 1000-years that Jesus is reigning, but the city will be present after those 1000 years, after the Great White Throne judgment, on the new earth.
What's confusing about it is how Zechariah 14 seems to be describing the beginning of the millenial reign in verse 5.
Zechariah 14:5 (NIV)
5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake[a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
Footnotes:
a. Zechariah 14:5 Or 5 My mountain valley will be blocked and will extend to Azel. It will be blocked as it was blocked because of the earthquake
...sounds like Jesus coming with his angels, both comparing it to Revelation 19:13-15 and 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8...
Revelation 19:13-15 (NIV)
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
Footnotes:
a. Revelation 19:15 Psalm 2:9
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 (NIV)
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
So one would be tempted to say, "aha! Zechariah 14 is describing the beginning of Jesus' 1,000 year reign!"
But then, Zechariah gives us "New Jerusalem details" or what sounds similar to New Jerusalem (the one depicted in Revelation 21 and 22: the "no night" detail, "the living water flowing from Jerusalem" detail, The "living water" seems to be a reference to God himself, or the knowledge of God...? Not sure).
Zechariah 14:6-8 (NIV)
6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.
Jeremiah 2:13 (NIV)
13 “My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.
John 7:38 (NIV)
38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”[a]
Footnotes:
a. John 7:38 Or me. And let anyone drink 38 who believes in me.” As Scripture has said, “Out of him (or them) will flow rivers of living water.”
Habakkuk 2:14 (NIV)
14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.
Micah 4:2 (NIV)
2 Many nations will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Revelation 21:23-25 (NIV)
23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
Revelation 22:1-5 (NIV)
22 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
...and that last bit, about "they" will reign for ever and ever, is how Daniel expressed it: from Paul's epistles (1 Corinthians 15) we get this notion of Jesus handing the reign back to the Father. Daniel focuses on handing the kingdom back to the people of God:
Daniel 7:18 (NIV)
18 But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.’
Daniel 7:21-22 (NIV)
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
Daniel 7:27 (NIV)
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’
They are both true. Maybe it's a translation thing and we'd have to look at the Hebrew and Greek or we're glossing over a pivotal word that clarifies what is going on here. Or is it simply that the Old Testament prophets like Daniel and Zechariah gave a general outline, and the Book of Revelation, John's vision, is more detailed chronological-wise, than the former prophets? But the problem is...
Detail #2: If Zechariah 14 is describing the millennial reign though, then it can't be the Heavenly Jerusalem because by the end, we have a literal temple. The new Jerusalem, on the new earth, in the new heavens, has no temple; compare that to the circumstances depicted in Zechariah 14, Ezekiel 40-44, and Revelation 11:1-2 which do have a literal temple building present, in the Jerusalem we all know, because it's the holy city where they crucified our Lord (Rev 11:8). Even just staying within the Book of Revelation:
Contrast:
Revelation 11:1-2 (NIV)
11 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
Revelation 11:8(NIV)
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.
With:
Revelation 21:22 (NIV)
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Revelation 11 describes a future temple on this earth in the Jerusalem we all know (this physical temple is also the third temple described in Ezekiel 40-44 [thank you Ezekiel for being so meticulous with architectural details and measurements, which lets us know it's a building], and "the Lord's House" described in Zechariah 14 [no thank you Zechariah for using this vague title lol, though I'm still grateful for this prophet don't get me wrong—especially his zombie plague description, exciting stuff). It's not unusual for the temple to be referred to by that term ("The Lord's House"):
Solomon's temple (the first temple) described as "the Lord's House".
Jeremiah 7:2 (NIV)
2 “Stand at the gate of the Lord’s house and there proclaim this message:
“‘Hear the word of the Lord, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the Lord.
Ezrah's temple (the second temple) described as "the Lord's House".
Ezra 1:5 (NIV)
5 Then the family heads of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and Levites—everyone whose heart God had moved—prepared to go up and build the house of the Lord in Jerusalem.
But the problem is even the Tabernacle (the Tent built by Moses' generation) was called the Lord's House :L
Joshua 6:24 (NIV)
24 Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the Lord’s house.
Zechariah is a bit ambivalent in that respect (people will be cooking sacrifices, but will there be a physical temple present? That's necessary to know in order to tell if this is describing New Jerusalem or simply Jerusalem). Ezekiel 40-44 and Revelation 11:1-2 are easier to deduce by the architectural details they document as having seen. But Zech 14 is not. What I don't doubt is that they'll be cooking sacrifices. But anyway:
Rev 11:1-2, the Old Jerusalem we know, which has a temple building.
VS.
Revelation 21, the New Jerusalem, on the new earth, which we haven't seen / don't know, and which lacks a temple building.
As far as "identifying the nations", if we could figure out, for sure, what Zechariah 14 is describing (Jerusalem or New Jerusalem...or both? depending on which verse you're at?), then you'll have your answer. I can see the connection you're making to "the nations" described in Revelation 21 (New Jerusalem).
Revelation 21:22-27 (NIV)
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
But considering that Revelation 21 is describing the city on the new earth, I'm not sure if we can consider them to be the same surviving "nations" of Zechariah 14.
Between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 21, the Great White Throne judgment would have taken place. Not only that, but prior to that, after those 1,000 years have ended, Satan gets released to deceive the nations once again, round them all up to fight against Jerusalem. Fire comes down from heaven, defeats them all. Satan gets cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:7-10), followed by the Great White Throne judgment. Everyone with the mark of the beast is getting thrown into the lake of fire at that point. So, the nations in Revelation 21...on the new earth in the new heavens...wicked people wouldn't be around by then I don't think??? All who worshiped the beast would be in the lake of fire by then (Great White Throne judgment is judgment day which takes place before John sees the new earth and the new heavens).
Revelation 14:9-11 (NIV)
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
I don't think they will come to worship YHWH/Jesus in Jerusalem nor the New Jerusalem like the nations depicted in Revelation 21 or Isaiah 66.
Isaiah 66:22-24 (NIV)
22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
I'm not 100% sure who the nations in Revelation 21 are. Could they just be nations of righteous people? lol. Last minute repentance due to wrath?
Revelation 11:13 (NIV)
13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Zechariah 14 and Revelation 21 are a challenge to study in detail sometimes LOL. But fun emotion_dowantheart
