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 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:31 am
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:34 am
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Weaknesses of Postmillennialism
1. Postmillennialism minimizes one of the primary experiences that will characterize the church and all Christians throughout this present age: suffering with Christ.
E.g., consider 2 Corinthians 4:7-12. Here Paul "effectively distances himself from the (postmil-like) view that the (eschatological) life of (the risen and ascended) Jesus embodies a power/victory principle that progressively ameliorates and reduces the suffering of the church. . . . Until the resurrection of the body at his return Christ's resurrection-life finds expression in the church's sufferings (and . . . nowhere else--so far as the existence and calling of the church are concerned); the locus of Christ's ascension-power is the suffering church" (Richard Gaffin, "Theonomy and Eschatology: Reflections on Postmillennialism," in Theonomy: A Reformed Critique [Zondervan, 1990], 212).
See also Romans 8:17-18. How long will this experience of suffering with Christ last? How long will the groaning under the weight of weakness last? According to vv. 19,21,23, it will last until the day of our redemption, the return of Christ. Says Gaffin:
"Until then, at Christ's return, the suffering/futility/decay principle in creation remains in force, undiminished (but sure to be overcome); it is an enervating factor that cuts across the church's existence, including its mission, in its entirety. The notion that this frustration factor will be demonstrable reduced, and the church's suffering service noticeably alleviated and even compensated, in a future era before Christ's return is not merely foreign to this passage; it trivializes as well as blurs both the present suffering and future hope/glory in view. Until his return, the church remains one step behind its exalted Lord; his exaltation means its (privileged) humiliation, his return (and not before), its exaltation" (214-15).
"as Paul reminds the church just a few verses after the Romans 8 passage considered above (v. 37), not 'beyond' or '[only] after' but 'in all these things' ('trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword,' v. 35), 'we are more than conquerors.' Until Jesus comes again, the church 'wins' by 'losing'" (216).
Gaffin concludes:
"Any outlook that tends to remove or obscure the (constitutive) dimension of suffering for the Gospel from the present triumph of the church is an illusion. The misplaced expectation, before Christ's return, of a 'golden age' in which, in contrast to the present, opposition to the church will have been reduced to a minimum and suffering will have receded to the periphery for an (at last) 'victorious' Christendom -- that misconception can only distort the church's understanding of its mission in the world. According to Jesus, the church will not have drained the shared cup of his sufffering until he returns. The church cannot afford to evade that point. It does so at the risk of jeopardizing its own identity" [217-18].
Kenneth Gentry responds to Gaffin by insisting that the “suffering” in view in these texts need not be generalized beyond the experience of the apostles and the first century church. He does not argue that suffering connected with indwelling sin and creaturely mortality will be eradicated, but he does insist that, as external opposition to the gospel progressively diminishes, suffering for the faith (i.e., persecution) will be reduced to negligible proportions.
2. Postmillennialism undermines the NT emphasis on the church's imminent expectation of Christ's return. That is to say, PostM undermines the element of watchfulness that is essential to the NT church. See 1 Cor. 16:22; Rom. 13:11-12; Phil. 4:5; Js. 5:8; 1 Pt. 4:7; 1 Jn. 2:18; Rev. 1:3; 22:20.
3. The OT identifies the "golden" age of consummate success and triumph with the New Heavens and New Earth which come only after the millennium of Rev. 20 (Rev. 21-22).
4. The NT seems to anticipate that the number of those saved when Christ returns will not be as great as the PostM suggests, and that conditions will be decidedly bad, not good. See Mt. 7:13-14; Lk. 18:8; 2 Thess. 2:3-4; 2 Tim. 3:1-5,12-13; 4:3-4. In the parable of the Tares in Mt. 13:36-43 "Jesus taught that evil people will continue to exist alongside of God's redeemed people until the time of harvest. The clear implication of this parable is that Satan's kingdom, if we may call it that, will continue to exist and grow as long as God's kingdom grows, until Christ comes again" (Hoekema).
5. PostM's interpretation of Rev. 19-20 seems forced and artificial. See the later lesson for an exegesis of these texts.
6. Scripture (esp. the NT) nowhere explicitly teaches the progressive and eventual wholesale reconstruction of society (arts, economics, politics, courts, education, etc.) according to Christian principles prior to Christ's return. Of course, there may be relative success in this regard in isolated instances.
Gary North contends that essential to any notion of Christians “reigning” in history is “Christians’ possession of the judicial authority to impose negative civil sanctions or the private economic power to impose both positive and negative cultural sanctions [in particular, those given in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28]” (Millennialism and Social Theory, 87).
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:54 am
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Weaknesses of Premillenialism
The first weakness is that premillenniarians have to explain how it is that people make it through the return of Christ and yet remain in natural bodies. Jesus taught that his return marks the end of the age (Matthew 13:39) and that after his return, people no longer marry or are given in marriage (Luke 20:34-36). At Christ’s return, he judges the world, making it tough for someone to be judged and yet not eternally condemned or rewarded with eternal life (Matthew 25:31-46). This is especially problematic for premillennarians, since they claim that their view is based upon a “literal” interpretation of prophecy. Where, then, is the one-thousand year gap between the return of Christ and the judgment (which, according to premillennarians takes place at the end of the millennium) when Jesus teaches that judgment takes place at his return? Those who take the Bible “literally” find themselves having to insert a gap into the biblical text which isn’t there.
The other problem with premillennialism is, if it be true, there is a great apostasy on the earth after one thousand years of Christ’s rule (Revelation 20:7-10). If there cannot be people on earth in natural bodies during the thousand years (which supposedly comes after Christ returns), then who are the people who revolt against Christ at the end of the millennium? And that after Christ’s own rule? It makes much more sense to see Revelation 20:1-10 as a description of the entire inter-advental age, since the scene takes place in heaven where the thrones are (vv. 1-6), before shifting to the earth in verses 7-10.
As for dispensational premillennialism, both the strengths and weaknesses of premillennialism generally apply. But if we consider dispenationalism on its own terms, its main strength is a stress upon progressive revelation (the careful consideration of how God interacts with his people throughout the different stages of redemptive history). We can also say that one of its strengths is its emphasis upon the imminent return of Christ.
As for weaknesses, there are many. One is that the presuppositions of dispensationalism (which, despite protests to the contrary, is a hermeneutic) cannot be sustained. The belief that God has distinct redemptive purposes for Israel and for the Gentiles is highly problematic in light of a text like Ephesians 2:11-22. Another serious problem with dispensationalism is the way in which the “literal interpretation” of Scripture is worked out in practice. The dispensational stress upon “literalism” actually amounts to an Israel-centered hermeneutic, largely taken from the Old Testament prophets which then predetermines what the New Testament authors can tell us about Israel.
The New Testament presents a Christ-centered reading of redemptive history and reinterprets the place of Israel in that redemptive history in light of the coming of Jesus Christ, who is the true Israel.
As for postmillennialism, remember that both postmillennarians and amillennarians hold in common the idea that the millennial age precedes the return of Christ and the consummation. So the structural strengths and weaknesses of each will be similar. The essential difference between postmillennialism and amillennialism is in how we understand the nature and character of the millennial age.
Postmillennialism’s greatest strength is the rhetorical stress upon optimism regarding the kingdom of God and its ability to transform the nations of the earth before Christ returns. Postmillennarians extend the kingdom of God beyond spiritual matters (word and sacrament) to the transformation of culture. Postmillennarians generally believe that Jesus returns to a saved earth, he does not return to save the earth (as amillennarians believe).
This means that the biggest weakness of postmillennialism is the determination of the beginning of the millennial age–”when do the thousand years begin?” Some have seen this in the conversion of Israel, the overthrow of Antichrist (usually defined as Romanism or Islam) and the conversion of the nations. Obviously, these things have not yet happened. Therefore, the biggest weakness of postmillennialism is the denial of an imminent return of Christ–which explains why so many postmillennarians are attracted to preterism, the understanding Christ returned in judgment upon Israel in A.D. 70.
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:23 am
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Weaknesses of Amillennialism
If you are Amillennialist there are some important things you must reckon with:
You must necessarily must read New Testament prophecies of Jesus’ Second Coming the same way Jews read Old Testament prophecies of Jesus’ First Coming. This thought came from George Eldon Ladd:
From the Old Testament perspective, the church age is not seen…There are indeed prophecies which describe the coming of a Messianic personage in suffering and humility such as Isaiah 53 and Zechariah 9:9-10, other prophecies which describe the victorious King of the Davidic Line (Isaiah 9, 10), as well as a prophecy of the coming of a heavenly Son of Man in Daniel 7. But the Old Testament does not relate these several prophecies to one another, either theologically or chronologically. God will finally act to redeem his people, and different prophets describe this eschatological redemption in different terms. The Old Testament makes no effort to synthesize the prophecies; and the effort to decide which prophecies apply to the church age, which apply to the millennial era, and which belong to The Age to Come ignores this basic fact of the prophetic perspective. – George Eldon Ladd, The Gospel of the Kingdom, 37
What Ladd is saying is that in the Old Testament, the prophets and the prophetic message didn’t clearly articulate a space between the events of Jesus First Coming (the Suffering Servant) and those of his Second Coming (reigning Davidic King). The perspective of the Old Testament prophets was that those events appeared to happen at once. That is why the Apostles expected Jesus to “restore the kingdom to Israel” (Acts 1:6) before his ascension. They did not yet understand that there would be a time period between Christ’s two comings.
Non-millennialists do the same thing with the New Testament explanations of the events of Jesus Second Coming and the ushering in of the New Heavens and New Earth. Ladd again:
One would never discover this fact [of the Millennial reign of Christ] from most of the New Testament because it sees the future like a two-dimension canvas in terms of length and breadth without depth. The transition between the two ages is viewed as though it were one simple event, even as the Old Testament prophets looked forward to a single Day of the Lord. – George Eldon Ladd, The Gospel of the Kingdom, 38
And
From the New Testament perspective, the eschatological act of God is usually viewed as a single day which will introduce The Age to Come. However, the Revelation of John, as well as I Corinthians 15: 20-28, indicates that there are yet to be two eschatological stages in the accomplishment of the divine purpose and the establishment of God’s Kingdom. – George Eldon Ladd, The Gospel of the Kingdom, 37
You must conflate what are clearly two separate resurrections into one. In Revelation 20:4 John says that he saw that “the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus…came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” In verse 13 the sea and Death and Hades give up the dead and they are judged. The Amillennialist must deal these two resurrections, separated by “a thousand” years, in such a way that there is only one resurrection at Christ’s return. Some Amillennialists have said that the first resurrection is speaking of regeneration, the new birth. Regeneration is passing from spiritual death to spiritual life. (Eph 2:5) But consider how those who were raised in Revelation 20 are described. It is those “who had been beheaded” who “had not worshiped the beast” or “received its mark”. They were not brought to life before they did these things in order that they might be able to do them, it was after they had done these things that they were brought to life. In other words, as John describes it they did regenerate things, were killed and then were brought to life.
If instead the Amillennialist says that this resurrection actually happens at the same time as the one in verse 13, then what does their reigning with Christ mean? They were raised and then reigned with Jesus. If they are raised at the time of the final judgment how do the reign with him? And why would John mention a specific interval of their reign if they are raised, judged and brought in to the New Heavens and New Earth in one event?
You must reconcile the present binding of Satan in order that he may not deceive the nations with verses in the New Testament that indicate that he is still actively deceiving people. One of the verses that bothered me enough to move me out of the Amillennialism was 2Co 4:4 “In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” If Satan is currently bound as he is described to be in Revelation 20:1-3, then he should not be able to “blind the minds of unbelievers.”
That is not to say that at the cross Jesus didn’t in some sense bind Satan. Matthew 12:28-29 indicates that Jesus’ ministry and that of his followers of casting out demons was in essence binding the strong man and plundering his house. But that appears to be different than Satan’s binding where he is remove and bound more fully not so that demons can be cast out of people, but that his deceptive powers over humanity are removed. The non-millennialist usually equates the binding of Satan in Revelation 20 with the binding of the strong man in Matthew 12 and exegetically that appears to require some justification.
You must believe that the present earth will never be set free from its bondage under sin but will be destroyed and recreated. Under a non-millennial view, Jesus returns to earth, judges the living and in the dead and ushers in the final state in one cataclysmic event. According to 2Pt 3:10-12 on the Day of the Lord the creation will be dissolved and judgment will come. There is no deliverance of creation, only a day when it is replaced. But Romans 8 indicts that creation is waiting a day when it will be delivered from the futility it was subjected to at the fall. If there is not a time when peace reigns on the earth but there is only recreation, creation is not waiting for deliverance but destruction. It would be like a hostage waiting for friendly forces to come and shoot him rather than liberate him.
We experience rebirth before resurrection. There is a period for us when we are born again but are not glorified. We have redeemed hearts but unredeemed bodies. The non-millennialist must believe that this “now and not yet” does not apply to the rest of creation even though verses like those in Isaiah 11 describe a time when the earth is at peace with itself, not yet burned up and replaced.
You must see the reign of the promised Davidic King as only ever partial on this earth. The non-millennialist sees currently Jesus reigning from heaven, as he truly is, and must accept that as sufficient. Though he is promised to rule the nations with a rod of iron (Isa 11:4, Ps 2, Rev 2:25-27), he actually will only rule his church on this earth. We do not see Jesus rule this way yet (Heb 2:6-9) but there is a day coming when he will [1Co 15:24-28].
We do not see Jesus rule the nations in this manner now and for the non-millennial view, he never will. The nations rage under God’s sovereign control as they have all along (Dan 7). But what seems to be pictured in many verses is the significant, earthly reign of the Davidic King over the nations of the earth. As I mentioned above, the Apostles still had this hope when Jesus ascended to heaven. His answer to them did not sound particularly amillennial; “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.” (Acts 2:7) An amillennial answer might have been more along the lines of “Yes I shall as you receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Instead Jesus tells them to not worry about when that will happen but that they will first be his witnesses to the nations under the hope of that coming day when Jesus will rule in that fashion.
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:26 am
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Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:12 am
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Premillenialism hands down makes more sense. A government has to be overthrown by the Messiah, not that we fix the government and he comes back to an already existing paradise. His second-coming brings destruction to ungodly men according to 2 Peter 3. What is there to destroy if he comes back to a planet full of righteousness already? plus who are the rebellious people who refuse to repent while he's pouring out wrath (Revelation 9:20)? So anything but premillenialism doesn't make sense in that regard.
With this in mind...
Quote: Revelation 20:4-6, 11-15 (NIV) 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. [...] 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Footnotes:Revelation 20:4 Or God; I also saw those who
...Matthew 25:31-46 cannot be referring to the "first resurrection" group, because that group completely avoids the lake of fire/the second death (according to Rev 20:4-6). Yet clearly, people in the "Matthew 25 group" are condemned to eternal punishment. So let's see: Yeshua comes back, first resurrection takes place, living believers at the time also get transformed, they meet him in the air, nonbelievers don't survive the wrath brought upon the earth, and they go to Hell (Hades, punishment) until the second resurrection. Yeshua reigns for 1000 years on his newly wiped planet. 1000 years are up, the second resurrection takes places, Satan is let loose, and these are the surrounding nations that come against Yeshua's kingdom (the masses of people who took part in the second resurrection). question
Looking at it that way, perhaps the "eternal punishment" reference in Matthew 25 actually means "punished for an age" or "deprived for an age" (aionios ["age-long"] kolasis ["chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation"]). They'll be killed, deprived of living in the millenial kingdom for the 1,000 years, and must wait until the end of the millenial reign to be resurrected. question The millenial kingdom doesn't seem to be on the New Heavens and New Earth because they have not been created yet; the Old Heavens and Old Earth disappear once the "Great White Throne" judgment /lake of fire time comes (and that's after the 1000 years according to Rev 20:11-15).
I dont quite understand why they see the existence of natural bodies at the end of the millenial reign as a weakness to the interpretation. Two resurrections take place (Rev 20:4-6); first resurrection happens upon his return and those believers get incorruptible bodies along with already living believers (1 Thess 4:15-17), I don't know what happens to non-believers' bodies. Assuming that they don't turn immortal like us, these nonbelievers will die when he comes back to destroy/deal out wrath, they'll go to Hades, then after the 1000 years they will be resurrected and face the Great White Throne judgment. So perhaps those at the end of the millenial reign, those who take part in the second resurrection, do not receive incorruptible bodies? That's why people with natural bodies will be around after the 1000 years and subsequently thrown into the lake of fire? But why are they assuming that they have natural bodies?
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:54 am
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real eyes realize Premillenialism hands down makes more sense. A government has to be overthrown by the Messiah, not that we fix the government and he comes back to an already existing paradise. His second-coming brings destruction to ungodly men according to 2 Peter 3. What is there to destroy if he comes back to a planet full of righteousness already? plus who are the rebellious people who refuse to repent while he's pouring out wrath (Revelation 9:20)? So anything but premillenialism doesn't make sense in that regard. With this in mind... Quote: Revelation 20:4-6, 11-15 (NIV) 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. [...] 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Footnotes:Revelation 20:4 Or God; I also saw those who ...Matthew 25:31-46 cannot be referring to the "first resurrection" group, because that group completely avoids the lake of fire/the second death (according to Rev 20:4-6). Yet clearly, people in the "Matthew 25 group" are condemned to eternal punishment. So let's see: Yeshua comes back, first resurrection takes place, living believers at the time also get transformed, they meet him in the air, nonbelievers don't survive the wrath brought upon the earth, and they go to Hell (Hades, punishment) until the second resurrection. Yeshua reigns for 1000 years on his newly wiped planet. 1000 years are up, the second resurrection takes places, Satan is let loose, and these are the surrounding nations that come against Yeshua's kingdom (the masses of people who took part in the second resurrection). question Looking at it that way, perhaps the "eternal punishment" reference in Matthew 25 actually means "punished for an age" or "deprived for an age" ( aionios ["age-long"] kolasis ["chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation"]). They'll be killed, deprived of living in the millenial kingdom for the 1,000 years, and must wait until the end of the millenial reign to be resurrected. question The millenial kingdom doesn't seem to be on the New Heavens and New Earth because they have not been created yet; the Old Heavens and Old Earth disappear once the "Great White Throne" judgment /lake of fire time comes (and that's after the 1000 years according to Rev 20:11-15). I dont quite understand why they see the existence of natural bodies at the end of the millenial reign as a weakness to the interpretation. Two resurrections take place (Rev 20:4-6); first resurrection happens upon his return and those believers get incorruptible bodies along with already living believers (1 Thess 4:15-17), I don't know what happens to non-believers' bodies. Assuming that they don't turn immortal like us, these nonbelievers will die when he comes back to destroy/deal out wrath, they'll go to Hades, then after the 1000 years they will be resurrected and face the Great White Throne judgment. So perhaps those at the end of the millenial reign, those who take part in the second resurrection, do not receive incorruptible bodies? That's why people with natural bodies will be around after the 1000 years and subsequently thrown into the lake of fire? But why are they assuming that they have natural bodies?
Revelation 13:7
He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
There is a verse in revelations that speak of the great number of people that goes against Jerusalem, and Jesus, seem to recall that it was an unfathomable number. They should not exist if we think of what will happen during the time when God's wrath is poured out on the earth. There will be very few people left on the earth due to wars, plagues, famine and natural disasters. Why would Jesus allow people (those who are lost) to increase outside of New Jerusalem after his second coming, when the Bible states he will rule the nations with an iron rod? It makes more sense to see it as those that are a part of the second Resurrection as you pointed out. Satan is again let lose from his prison and allowed to trick the nations. There are people to be tricked once again after the second Resurrection, before the second Resurrection who is there to trick? The saints who are fashioned into imperishable bodies at Jesus Second coming? Those who rejected and refused heed God's warning and shook their fists at the sky? Would they have been allowed to continue outside New Jerusalem as before?
Revelation 20:7-8
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
If Jesus has established his everlasting kingdom there would be no one to trick, because it would only be made up from saint. If the judgement of everyone, also those that go into everlasting condemnation had already occurred with his second coming then there would have been no one to fight once the thousand years have passed, meaning that the Gog and Magog war must be nations made up from those who were ressurected last, who are ressurected with perishable bodies?
Zechariah 14:12
This is the plague with which the LORD will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come” (Revelation 6:15-17 NKJV).
I doubt they would be able to hide from the lamb to build up new nations, unless Jesus allowed it to serve his purpose which could be a possibility.
The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads of many countries (Psalm 110:5-6). |
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:50 pm
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real eyes realize Premillenialism hands down makes more sense. A government has to be overthrown by the Messiah, not that we fix the government and he comes back to an already existing paradise. His second-coming brings destruction to ungodly men according to 2 Peter 3. What is there to destroy if he comes back to a planet full of righteousness already? plus who are the rebellious people who refuse to repent while he's pouring out wrath (Revelation 9:20)? So anything but premillenialism doesn't make sense in that regard. With this in mind... Quote: Revelation 20:4-6, 11-15 (NIV) 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. [...] 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Footnotes:Revelation 20:4 Or God; I also saw those who ...Matthew 25:31-46 cannot be referring to the "first resurrection" group, because that group completely avoids the lake of fire/the second death (according to Rev 20:4-6). Yet clearly, people in the "Matthew 25 group" are condemned to eternal punishment. So let's see: Yeshua comes back, first resurrection takes place, living believers at the time also get transformed, they meet him in the air, nonbelievers don't survive the wrath brought upon the earth, and they go to Hell (Hades, punishment) until the second resurrection. Yeshua reigns for 1000 years on his newly wiped planet. 1000 years are up, the second resurrection takes places, Satan is let loose, and these are the surrounding nations that come against Yeshua's kingdom (the masses of people who took part in the second resurrection). question Looking at it that way, perhaps the "eternal punishment" reference in Matthew 25 actually means "punished for an age" or "deprived for an age" ( aionios ["age-long"] kolasis ["chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation"]). They'll be killed, deprived of living in the millenial kingdom for the 1,000 years, and must wait until the end of the millenial reign to be resurrected. question The millenial kingdom doesn't seem to be on the New Heavens and New Earth because they have not been created yet; the Old Heavens and Old Earth disappear once the "Great White Throne" judgment /lake of fire time comes (and that's after the 1000 years according to Rev 20:11-15). I dont quite understand why they see the existence of natural bodies at the end of the millenial reign as a weakness to the interpretation. Two resurrections take place (Rev 20:4-6); first resurrection happens upon his return and those believers get incorruptible bodies along with already living believers (1 Thess 4:15-17), I don't know what happens to non-believers' bodies. Assuming that they don't turn immortal like us, these nonbelievers will die when he comes back to destroy/deal out wrath, they'll go to Hades, then after the 1000 years they will be resurrected and face the Great White Throne judgment. So perhaps those at the end of the millenial reign, those who take part in the second resurrection, do not receive incorruptible bodies? That's why people with natural bodies will be around after the 1000 years and subsequently thrown into the lake of fire? But why are they assuming that they have natural bodies?
Addition to my previous comment:
There are also theological implications. Is it possible for someone born after the second coming (I am here commenting on those who believe that nations will grow around New Jerusalem made up of those who do not accept Jesus as their savior and eventually increase enormously in numbers, to then rebel against Jesus and march towards Jerusalem with an army more countless then the grain of sands on a beach?) to be saved? Is it fair of God to allow someone to be born during a time were it is impossible to be saved?
Romans 8:24
24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? |
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Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:44 pm
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Garland-Green real eyes realize Premillenialism hands down makes more sense. A government has to be overthrown by the Messiah, not that we fix the government and he comes back to an already existing paradise. His second-coming brings destruction to ungodly men according to 2 Peter 3. What is there to destroy if he comes back to a planet full of righteousness already? plus who are the rebellious people who refuse to repent while he's pouring out wrath (Revelation 9:20)? So anything but premillenialism doesn't make sense in that regard. With this in mind... Quote: Revelation 20:4-6, 11-15 (NIV) 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. [...] 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Footnotes:Revelation 20:4 Or God; I also saw those who ...Matthew 25:31-46 cannot be referring to the "first resurrection" group, because that group completely avoids the lake of fire/the second death (according to Rev 20:4-6). Yet clearly, people in the "Matthew 25 group" are condemned to eternal punishment. So let's see: Yeshua comes back, first resurrection takes place, living believers at the time also get transformed, they meet him in the air, nonbelievers don't survive the wrath brought upon the earth, and they go to Hell (Hades, punishment) until the second resurrection. Yeshua reigns for 1000 years on his newly wiped planet. 1000 years are up, the second resurrection takes places, Satan is let loose, and these are the surrounding nations that come against Yeshua's kingdom (the masses of people who took part in the second resurrection). question Looking at it that way, perhaps the "eternal punishment" reference in Matthew 25 actually means "punished for an age" or "deprived for an age" ( aionios ["age-long"] kolasis ["chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation"]). They'll be killed, deprived of living in the millenial kingdom for the 1,000 years, and must wait until the end of the millenial reign to be resurrected. question The millenial kingdom doesn't seem to be on the New Heavens and New Earth because they have not been created yet; the Old Heavens and Old Earth disappear once the "Great White Throne" judgment /lake of fire time comes (and that's after the 1000 years according to Rev 20:11-15). I dont quite understand why they see the existence of natural bodies at the end of the millenial reign as a weakness to the interpretation. Two resurrections take place (Rev 20:4-6); first resurrection happens upon his return and those believers get incorruptible bodies along with already living believers (1 Thess 4:15-17), I don't know what happens to non-believers' bodies. Assuming that they don't turn immortal like us, these nonbelievers will die when he comes back to destroy/deal out wrath, they'll go to Hades, then after the 1000 years they will be resurrected and face the Great White Throne judgment. So perhaps those at the end of the millenial reign, those who take part in the second resurrection, do not receive incorruptible bodies? That's why people with natural bodies will be around after the 1000 years and subsequently thrown into the lake of fire? But why are they assuming that they have natural bodies? Addition to my previous comment: There are also theological implications. Is it possible for someone born after the second coming (I am here commenting on those who believe that nations will grow around New Jerusalem made up of those who do not accept Jesus as their savior and eventually increase enormously in numbers, to then rebel against Jesus and march towards Jerusalem with an army more countless then the grain of sands on a beach?) to be saved? Is it fair of God to allow someone to be born during a time were it is impossible to be saved? Romans 8:24 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have?
Wait, I may be confused. Are you implying that after the 1000 year reign Jesus comes back to re-establish His Kingdom down on Earth? Then after Satan has again rounded up another multitude of disbelievers against this Kingdom, Jesus sends them and Satan's Angel's into the Lake of Fire for all Eternity? |
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Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:11 am
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Hamul Garland-Green real eyes realize Premillenialism hands down makes more sense. A government has to be overthrown by the Messiah, not that we fix the government and he comes back to an already existing paradise. His second-coming brings destruction to ungodly men according to 2 Peter 3. What is there to destroy if he comes back to a planet full of righteousness already? plus who are the rebellious people who refuse to repent while he's pouring out wrath (Revelation 9:20)? So anything but premillenialism doesn't make sense in that regard. With this in mind... Quote: Revelation 20:4-6, 11-15 (NIV) 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. [...] 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Footnotes:Revelation 20:4 Or God; I also saw those who ...Matthew 25:31-46 cannot be referring to the "first resurrection" group, because that group completely avoids the lake of fire/the second death (according to Rev 20:4-6). Yet clearly, people in the "Matthew 25 group" are condemned to eternal punishment. So let's see: Yeshua comes back, first resurrection takes place, living believers at the time also get transformed, they meet him in the air, nonbelievers don't survive the wrath brought upon the earth, and they go to Hell (Hades, punishment) until the second resurrection. Yeshua reigns for 1000 years on his newly wiped planet. 1000 years are up, the second resurrection takes places, Satan is let loose, and these are the surrounding nations that come against Yeshua's kingdom (the masses of people who took part in the second resurrection). question Looking at it that way, perhaps the "eternal punishment" reference in Matthew 25 actually means "punished for an age" or "deprived for an age" ( aionios ["age-long"] kolasis ["chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation"]). They'll be killed, deprived of living in the millenial kingdom for the 1,000 years, and must wait until the end of the millenial reign to be resurrected. question The millenial kingdom doesn't seem to be on the New Heavens and New Earth because they have not been created yet; the Old Heavens and Old Earth disappear once the "Great White Throne" judgment /lake of fire time comes (and that's after the 1000 years according to Rev 20:11-15). I dont quite understand why they see the existence of natural bodies at the end of the millenial reign as a weakness to the interpretation. Two resurrections take place (Rev 20:4-6); first resurrection happens upon his return and those believers get incorruptible bodies along with already living believers (1 Thess 4:15-17), I don't know what happens to non-believers' bodies. Assuming that they don't turn immortal like us, these nonbelievers will die when he comes back to destroy/deal out wrath, they'll go to Hades, then after the 1000 years they will be resurrected and face the Great White Throne judgment. So perhaps those at the end of the millenial reign, those who take part in the second resurrection, do not receive incorruptible bodies? That's why people with natural bodies will be around after the 1000 years and subsequently thrown into the lake of fire? But why are they assuming that they have natural bodies? Addition to my previous comment: There are also theological implications. Is it possible for someone born after the second coming (I am here commenting on those who believe that nations will grow around New Jerusalem made up of those who do not accept Jesus as their savior and eventually increase enormously in numbers, to then rebel against Jesus and march towards Jerusalem with an army more countless then the grain of sands on a beach?) to be saved? Is it fair of God to allow someone to be born during a time were it is impossible to be saved? Romans 8:24 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? Wait, I may be confused. Are you implying that after the 1000 year reign Jesus comes back to re-establish His Kingdom down on Earth? Then after Satan has again rounded up another multitude of disbelievers against this Kingdom, Jesus sends them and Satan's Angel's into the Lake of Fire for all Eternity?
My post may be a little confusing. I am indirectly saying that it makes more sense if he is ruling for a thousand years here on earth before Satan is let lose along with the disbelievers that rise from the dead during the second coming. That these disbelievers are then gathered by Satan for one last battle before they are thrown into the lake of fire. When you think of how long it takes to populate the earth, that a thousand years is not really that long and given that extremely large number of people that decide to make war against Jesus it appears to me like this number can only be the accumulated number of people on earth through earths history. |
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Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:57 am
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