Religious Debate-- Christianity vs Islam-- First Debate--

[fit-choco]

[If the admin would like to move this thread to the
Friendly Debate section, I would be fine with it xp ]

Religious Debates

Hello Welcome to the Debate Thread on Religious differences and cross-links.

Hi I'm a Christian from England, Evangelical/Baptist/Pentecostal/Non-denominational..lol whatever you would like to call me. I am sort of new to this guild, I am glad to be apart of it, I would love to get involve a little more.

So this thread will officially host all forms of debates within different religious beliefs including islam, hinduism and buddhism. And even within our own faith such as Catholism, Jehovah witnessing, and mormonism and Protestants(non catholic).




So firstly we would start off the thread with an interesting topic on Islam and Christianity relations.

I have invited a Muslim member of this guild named Khalid Ibn Walid

Khalid Ibn Walid

Who recently introduced himself in the guild
forums about his faith and we are glad to have him, God bless you.

We will start off with
Two Debatable Questions>>


1.) Did Jesus Rise From The Dead?
And
2.) Who was Mohammed?

 

[Islamic Teacher]

In Islam Jesus (peace be upon him) wasn't killed on the cross, so he wasn't ressurected

And we Muslims believe Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be the Final Prophet of God  

[Rednal]

Speaking of Prophets... *Indicates Prophets thread* You could answer that here?  

[fit-choco]

Khalid Ibn Walid

In Islam Jesus (peace be upon him) wasn't killed on the cross, so he wasn't ressurected

And we Muslims believe Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be the Final Prophet of God

1.) If Jesus didn't die on the cross of Calvary, then what happened to him and what was his goal in the Quran and the Islamic view.

2.) How come Mohammed is valued so much as the prophet of exemplary values even though he had acted on immoral standards (man of war and threat) Why can Mohamed be so compared to a person like Jesus even though Jesus came to complete the will of God, isn't it obvious the Quran and it's so called Prophet contradict the word of God. What even makes the Quran more valuable than the Bible.  

[fit-choco]

Rednal

Speaking of Prophets... *Indicates Prophets thread* You could answer that here?

Apologies but I felt it necessary to put this thread on the main forums, Prophets will not be my only discussion topic and I guess I would have placed it on the "Friendly debate" thread, but yet again the main forum seemed reasonably.  

[Rednal]

Though this is a debate thread, it might work better to avoid statements like things being "obvious" to others. ^^ We come from different backgrounds and cultures, after all, and what seems normal to one person (based on their history) may seem very strange to another. Debates should always be conducted in a respectful fashion, right?  

[Islamic Teacher]

fit-choco

Khalid Ibn Walid

In Islam Jesus (peace be upon him) wasn't killed on the cross, so he wasn't ressurected

And we Muslims believe Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be the Final Prophet of God

1.) If Jesus didn't die on the cross of Calvary, then what happened to him and what was his goal in the Quran and the Islamic view.

2.) How come Mohammed is valued so much as the prophet of exemplary values even though he had acted on immoral standards (man of war and threat) Why can Mohamed be so compared to a person like Jesus even though Jesus came to complete the will of God, isn't it obvious the Quran and it's so called Prophet contradict the word of God. What even makes the Quran more valuable than the Bible.

I'll answer

1.) And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
The Noble Quran 4:157


2.) We Muslims believe Muhammad was prophesied to come by Moses,Isaiah,Jesus,etc.
We believe God chose him to complete the Revelations he sent to Mankind

"The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than God, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. God chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him)." The Noble Quran, 42:13  

[fit-choco]

Khalid Ibn Walid

fit-choco

Khalid Ibn Walid

In Islam Jesus (peace be upon him) wasn't killed on the cross, so he wasn't ressurected

And we Muslims believe Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be the Final Prophet of God

1.) If Jesus didn't die on the cross of Calvary, then what happened to him and what was his goal in the Quran and the Islamic view.

2.) How come Mohammed is valued so much as the prophet of exemplary values even though he had acted on immoral standards (man of war and threat) Why can Mohamed be so compared to a person like Jesus even though Jesus came to complete the will of God, isn't it obvious the Quran and it's so called Prophet contradict the word of God. What even makes the Quran more valuable than the Bible.

I'll answer

1.) And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
The Noble Quran 4:157


2.) We Muslims believe Muhammad was prophesied to come by Moses,Isaiah,Jesus,etc.
We believe God chose him to complete the Revelations he sent to Mankind

"The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than God, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. God chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him)." The Noble Quran, 42:13

1.) My first point would be (The use of the Quran) any form of your scriptures in a sense can contradict all things from the bible, from Genesis to Revelations, so when you "say" you will answer the questions, you can only use the Quran to back your statements up, which can be proven to be a flaw.

Second of all why would another man take their life for the sake of Jesus, wouldn't that be unjust worthy, Wasn't Jesus' will to complete the Torah's prophecy on he's coming;
>>Regarding Jesus’ birth—Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”


>>Isaiah 53:3-7 is especially unmistakable: “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.” The Old Testament; Verses in the Bible Before Jesus was born.

But no account of Mohammed in the Bible (might be in the Quran) but not in the Bible, he has no play in the Abrahamic movement. The Quran says Jesus spoke Arabic...no Arabic was never an influence in Isreal at the time, it was a Greek influenced region (the Roman Empire)

 

[fit-choco]

Khalid Ibn Walid

In the meantime Brother, I would like you to watch this clip when you can (and the rest of the series)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUGTZOYeF3U  

[Islamic Teacher]

fit-choco

Khalid Ibn Walid

fit-choco

Khalid Ibn Walid

In Islam Jesus (peace be upon him) wasn't killed on the cross, so he wasn't ressurected

And we Muslims believe Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be the Final Prophet of God

1.) If Jesus didn't die on the cross of Calvary, then what happened to him and what was his goal in the Quran and the Islamic view.

2.) How come Mohammed is valued so much as the prophet of exemplary values even though he had acted on immoral standards (man of war and threat) Why can Mohamed be so compared to a person like Jesus even though Jesus came to complete the will of God, isn't it obvious the Quran and it's so called Prophet contradict the word of God. What even makes the Quran more valuable than the Bible.

I'll answer

1.) And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
The Noble Quran 4:157


2.) We Muslims believe Muhammad was prophesied to come by Moses,Isaiah,Jesus,etc.
We believe God chose him to complete the Revelations he sent to Mankind

"The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than God, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. God chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him)." The Noble Quran, 42:13

1.) My first point would be (The use of the Quran) any form of your scriptures in a sense can contradict all things from the bible, from Genesis to Revelations, so when you "say" you will answer the questions, you can only use the Quran to back your statements up, which can be proven to be a flaw.

Second of all why would another man take their life for the sake of Jesus, wouldn't that be unjust worthy, Wasn't Jesus' will to complete the Torah's prophecy on he's coming;
>>Regarding Jesus’ birth—Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”


>>Isaiah 53:3-7 is especially unmistakable: “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.”

You used the Bible to back up your Statements, so I'll use the Quran
I believe the Quran is the Word, you believe its the Bible

However I'll also use your bible to back my statements up since thats the only thing you'll listen to

In Islam, God saved Jesus the Messiah son of Mary (peace be upon him)

Now I know that the LORD saves his anointed; he answers him from his holy heaven with the saving power of his right hand. (Psalms 20:6)

"Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm." (1 Chronicles 16:22)

LORD God, do not reject your anointed one. Remember the great love promised to David your servant." (2 Chronicles 6:42)

He gives his king great victories; he shows unfailing kindness to his anointed, to David and his descendants forever. (Psalms 18:50)

Jesus was not foresaken by God, or else he wouldn't be the Messiah.

Also


"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (God is with us)."

Isaiah 7:14

The phrase "a virgin" which we find in our English Bibles does not appear in the original Hebrew text. The word used is 'almah {al-maw'} meaning "a young woman of marriageable age". The Hebrew word for "virgin" is bthuwlah {beth-oo-law'}. When the Hebrew text is translated into Greek in the NT, it uses the word parthenos {per-then'-os}, which has a dual meaning; a young girl or a virgin. The translators have mistakenly chosen the latter. More recent and accurate versions of the Bible such as the Revised Standard Version present this verse as follows:

"Therefore, the Lord Himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel"

Isaiah 7:14 (RSV)

Biblical scholars have suggested that this prophesy was concerning the second son or possibly the third son of Isaiah by a Jewish maiden. It does not relate to Jesus or his virgin birth.

If Jesus (pbuh) was indeed intended by this prophesy, then why was he named "Jesus" and not "Immanuel" as the prophesy requires? Notice that the prophesy states that "his NAME shall be Immanuel." It does not say that "HE shall be Immanuel." There is a big difference between saying "His name shall be 'God is with us'" and between saying "He shall be God with us."

"Immanuel" is not the only name in the OT that contains the word "El" (God). There are hundreds of Hebrew names that consist of "El" and another noun. For example, "Ishmael" which means "God hears." Did God's sense of hearing come down to earth and live among us in the form of a man? Was God's sense of hearing "incarnated" in the form of a man?. There is also "Israel" (prince of God), and "Elijah" (my God is Jehovah), and so forth. As we can see, it was a very common occurrence for Israelites to have such names. Neither prophet Isaiah, nor King Ahaz, nor any Jew ever thought that the prophesy was for God himself to come down and live among them.

In Genesis 28:19 we read "And he called the name of that place Bethel (house of God)". Since the place was named "house of God," does this mean that God lived inside this house?

In Genesis 32:30, we are told that Jacob (pbuh) called a piece of land "Peni-el" (Face of God). The actual text states: "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel," is this the same as saying: "And Jacob said this place is Peniel"? Was the patch of land the actual face of God? Was the face of God "incarnated" in this piece of land?

Gabriel, the name of the angle of God, has been interpreted in Biblical references as having the general meaning of "Strength of God." So, does this mean that the angle Gabriel is the "incarnation" of the "strength of God"?

"The name Immanuel could mean 'God be with us' in the sense 'God help us!'"

Interpreter's dictionary of the Bible, V2, p. 686.

Jesus (pbuh) was given his name by the angel Gabriel even before his birth (Matthew 1:21). Never was he named "Immanuel." King Ahaz was in danger. His enemies were closing in. This is when a promise was made to show him a sign, a pregnant woman, not a virgin Mary (pbuh) who would not show up until many centuries after he had turned to dust.  

[Islamic Teacher]

fit-choco

Khalid Ibn Walid

In the meantime Brother, I would like you to watch this clip when you can (and the rest of the series)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUGTZOYeF3U

I've already heard what those Haters say about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)

However there are many Non-Muslims who Praise Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and give him great Respect

Here are some of Their Quotes

"lf a man like Muhammed were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness."

George Bernard Shaw

"People like Pasteur and Salk are leaders in the first sense. People like Gandhi and Confucius, on one hand, and Alexander, Caesar and Hitler on the other, are leaders in the second and perhaps the third sense. Jesus and Buddha belong in the third category alone. Perhaps the greatest leader of all times was Mohammed, who combined all three functions. To a lesser degree, Moses did the same."

Professor Jules Masserman

"Head of the State as well as the Church, lie was Caesar and Pope in one, but, he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. ft ever a man had the right to say that he ruled by a right divine, it was Muhummed. for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not tor the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life.""

Rev. R. Bosworth-Smith

"Muhammad was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forgotten by those around him."

Diwan Chand Sharma, The Prophets of the East, Calcutta 1935, p. 122.

"Four year after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born at Mecca, in Arabia the man who, of all men exercised the greatest influence upon the human race . . . Mohammed . . . "

John William Draper, M.D., L.L.D., A History of the Intellectual Development of Europe, London 1875, Vol. 1, pp 329-330.

"In little more than a year he was actually the spiritual, nominal and temporal ruler of Medina, with his hands on the lever that was to shake the world."

John Austin, "Muhammad the Prophet of Allah," in T.P's and Cassel's Weekly for 24th September 1927.

"Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator. Warrior, Conqueror of ideas, Restorer of rational beliefs, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammed. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"

Lamartine, Historic de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol. 11 pp. 276-2727.

"It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he live,. to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher."

Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p.4

"Muhummed is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities."

Encyclopaedia Britannica

"I have studied him — the wonderful man — and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ he must be called the saviour of humanity."

George Bernard Shaw in "The Genuine Islam"

"By a fortune absolutely unique in history , Mohammed is a threefold founder of a nation, of an empire, and of a religion."

Rev. R. Bosworth-Smith in "Mohammed and Mohammedanism 1946."


There are many more Quotes, but here are just a few  

[Islamic Teacher]

Quote:

But no account of Mohammed in the Bible (might be in the Quran) but not in the Bible, he has no play in the Abrahamic movement. The Quran says Jesus spoke Arabic...no Arabic was never an influence in Isreal at the time, it was a Greek influenced region (the Roman Empire)

The Quran NEVER said Jesus spoke arabic
Prophet Muhammad is Mentioned in the Bible, i'll show you the verses if you want  

[fit-choco]

Khalid Ibn Walid

No brother you mis-understood when i said you use your scriptures, not that it's wrong to just the basis of our conversation will only rely on our scriptures.

in the meantime ill brb to respond to your points  

[Rednal]

Hmm. Well, why not try to speak your own mind instead of direct references to scripture? Religious debates tend to have the note that each side only counts its own book as a truly accurate source, so statements relying on the validity of a particular book can't easily be accepted.

Added to that, of course, is the problem of interpretations. As Khalid has noted, people have different interpretations of different passages, and it's indeed true that some things may have been lost in translation somehow. This is rather common when going from one language to another; nuances and things that would've meant one thing to one group of people can mean something very different later on.

Yay, references! =D


Let's see, here... *Rubs chin* One could say that Jesus was forsaken by God on the cross, but only in a particular sense of the word. Some groups have advanced the opinion that God struck Jesus with His full wrath for all the sins of humanity and Jesus died as the culmination of that. He took on the punishment for others in a very, very literal sense, particularly because no human soul could truly endure God's absolute wrath. God Himself, though? He could take it. All of it. Then, according to some, he spent the next three days being rather busy; while "dead" in the real world, he was wherever all the souls of the previously dead were, doing something (opinions vary) to help them. His complete anger being spent and satisfied, God could now begin to forgive humanity and overlook the flaws He couldn't/wouldn't before that.


Truthfully, I don't have any particularly negative thoughts towards Muhammed (pbuh). I do question some elements of his teachings, though; remember that my knowledge of Islam is quite incomplete, but... at least from what I hear, it often seems somewhat degrading towards humans? Many Islamic areas tend to treat women as inferiors/objects (or so I'm told), and I find it difficult to agree with any belief that relegates humans to such a status. Of course, this may have something to do with my own beliefs, which state that all humans (including me) are inherently imperfect... but are the same before God.  

[Islamic Teacher]

Rednal

Hmm. Well, why not try to speak your own mind instead of direct references to scripture? Religious debates tend to have the note that each side only counts its own book as a truly accurate source, so statements relying on the validity of a particular book can't easily be accepted.

Added to that, of course, is the problem of interpretations. As Khalid has noted, people have different interpretations of different passages, and it's indeed true that some things may have been lost in translation somehow. This is rather common when going from one language to another; nuances and things that would've meant one thing to one group of people can mean something very different later on.

Yay, references! =D


Let's see, here... *Rubs chin* One could say that Jesus was forsaken by God on the cross, but only in a particular sense of the word. Some groups have advanced the opinion that God struck Jesus with His full wrath for all the sins of humanity and Jesus died as the culmination of that. He took on the punishment for others in a very, very literal sense, particularly because no human soul could truly endure God's absolute wrath. God Himself, though? He could take it. All of it. Then, according to some, he spent the next three days being rather busy; while "dead" in the real world, he was wherever all the souls of the previously dead were, doing something (opinions vary) to help them. His complete anger being spent and satisfied, God could now begin to forgive humanity and overlook the flaws He couldn't/wouldn't before that.


Truthfully, I don't have any particularly negative thoughts towards Muhammed (pbuh). I do question some elements of his teachings, though; remember that my knowledge of Islam is quite incomplete, but... at least from what I hear, it often seems somewhat degrading towards humans? Many Islamic areas tend to treat women as inferiors/objects (or so I'm told), and I find it difficult to agree with any belief that relegates humans to such a status. Of course, this may have something to do with my own beliefs, which state that all humans (including me) are inherently imperfect... but are the same before God.

If you need to know more you could go to my profile and see some quotes from Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and quotes on women in Islam