Manipulating the bible

[CheyenneServant]

http://iwastesomuchtime.com/on/?i=45512
Why are there people like this who insist on manipulating the bible to fit their need? God made man and women to go together, not to be gay. Gayness can be cured. I suffered from it. Why insist on manipulating the bible?  

[Rednal]

Because people tend to believe the things they want to be true, even if that requires willingly blinding themselves to the actual truth? If you have any kind of prejudice, you usually interpret things in a way that supports the beliefs you already have.

For example, can you give me one good reason why homosexuality can be "cured"?

After all, if it's genetic or somehow non-optional, then it can't be sinful. On the other hand, if it's something that is optional, then "cure" isn't the appropriate word to use since that implies there's something physically wrong. You'd need to change someone's mind, not their body.  

[kdke]

I remember reading about a study that said sexuality was usually determined by epi-marks, which in turn regulate how our genes are expressed. This regulation usually happens while in the womb and not long after a baby is born. So, if this hypothesis is true, that means no one is conceived as a homosexual; homosexuality is determined rather late into the pregnancy, and even after it. It might happen, or it might not. That also means it's not technically genetic; if a child's father/mother is gay, the chances of the child being gay isn't affected. I have the article on hand if anyone is ever interested in looking at it. I am not claiming that it is true or untrue, only that it could very well be a possibility.

But whatever the case, it shouldn't really matter. What should matter is whether someone commits homosexual acts at all. That's the sin. We are all born sinners, and we are all predisposed to act a certain way due to what has been passed down to us by our parents (not just through their parenting, but also through their genetics). What matters to God is our relationship with Him; through that, He gives us the grace we need in order to better ourselves, so we can serve His people.

We will always be struggling against temptation and our nature to sin. Always.  

[real eyes realize]

Rednal

[...]For example, can you give me one good reason why homosexuality can be "cured"?

After all, if it's genetic or somehow non-optional, then it can't be sinful. On the other hand, if it's something that is optional, then "cure" isn't the appropriate word to use since that implies there's something physically wrong. You'd need to change someone's mind, not their body.

Yes, it can still be sinful.

We didn't choose to be born in sin. Yet, we still were sinful from birth. Not optional. That's why Jesus had to come into the world via virgin birth, so that he wouldn't share in our nature; he had his Father's nature, not Adam's, and thus Jesus was without sin. That's why we must be "born-again"—both spiritually and physically—since we come from Adam. The genetic offspring of the fallen angels were also deemed sinful since angels aren't even suppose to have sex/marry/reproduce in the first place (Mark 12:25): if it deviates from the original design, it is sin. They should've never mingled their seed/DNA with man's seed. That was sin (Leviticus 19:19). Their offspring should have never existed; their offspring was sin.

Secondly, our bodies do need to be changed and will be changed by the end of all this (ties in with being born-again). It's not until we're out of this corruptible body, inside of the new one, that we're fully in the new creation (Romans 8:20-23; 1 Corinthians 15:50-53; 2 Corinthians 5:1-5). Our bodies do need to be changed—obviously by God not us—in order to be fully saved; just like he gave us a new spirit and renewed our minds, he will give us a new body. Flesh and blood cannot enter his Kingdom.

"Cure" is an appropriate word to use. The bible, both in the New and Old Testament, likens sin to a sickness we need to be healed of (Mark 2:17; Isaiah 1:5-6).  

[Rednal]

On the other hand, there are denominations who believe that children are not sinful and that if they die below a certain age, they're basically offered a free pass into Heaven should they choose to go. Among other things, the human brain (and decision-making capabilities) are not fully developed for quite a number of years... and you cannot possibly blame a child for things that are quite literally outside of their control. People must sin by choice before they can be held accountable for it; otherwise, you have a God who is cruel in saying "I have created you, but that you deserve death was my decision as well." Which is completely different from the fact that we all choose to sin at some point and bring the associated troubles upon ourselves.

I mean, "Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." (Matthew 19:14, NIV)

I find it hard to believe that Heaven belongs to those who are still wrapped in sin. Just, y'know, on general principle.

If a tree falls on your house, it's not an evil tree. If your friend is beaten by someone wielding a baseball bat, the bat isn't evil. When there's no choice involved, you cannot be morally accountable for something. It's not your fault. Or do you believe that God is so ready to punish everyone that He's going to do it whether they deserve it or not? To me, that's not justice. That's just tyranny.  

[Islamic Teacher]

People from all faiths have taken verses from their Holy Books and interpret them according to their desires.  

[apiyo]

They know good and well what the Bible says about homosexuality. Leviticus isn't the only place that condemns homosexual lifestyles either. People who are pro-homosexual want to do what ever they want and kid themselves into thinking they have the moral green light to do it. So that's why they butcher the Bible into agreeing with them.

And yes it can be cured by God and it doesn't really matter if what excuses about in vitro environment and having older brothers people come up with. God doesn't set us up to burn in lusts(1 Corinthians 10:13, Matthew 6:13). Unless of course we want to admit that the world is right and He can fix every sin but that one.  

[CheyenneServant]

ca adam

I remember reading about a study that said sexuality was usually determined by epi-marks, which in turn regulate how our genes are expressed. This regulation usually happens while in the womb and not long after a baby is born. So, if this hypothesis is true, that means no one is conceived as a homosexual; homosexuality is determined rather late into the pregnancy, and even after it. It might happen, or it might not. That also means it's not technically genetic; if a child's father/mother is gay, the chances of the child being gay isn't affected. I have the article on hand if anyone is ever interested in looking at it. I am not claiming that it is true or untrue, only that it could very well be a possibility.

But whatever the case, it shouldn't really matter. What should matter is whether someone commits homosexual acts at all. That's the sin. We are all born sinners, and we are all predisposed to act a certain way due to what has been passed down to us by our parents (not just through their parenting, but also through their genetics). What matters to God is our relationship with Him; through that, He gives us the grace we need in order to better ourselves, so we can serve His people.

We will always be struggling against temptation and our nature to sin. Always.

It's one thing to admit that homosexuality is a sin, it's another thing entirely to try to change the bible so that it says homosexuality is okay in the eyes of The Lord. It is not. Why else would he cure me? I was a sinner. And I got cured.  

[CheyenneServant]

real eyes realize

Rednal

[...]For example, can you give me one good reason why homosexuality can be "cured"?

After all, if it's genetic or somehow non-optional, then it can't be sinful. On the other hand, if it's something that is optional, then "cure" isn't the appropriate word to use since that implies there's something physically wrong. You'd need to change someone's mind, not their body.

Yes, it can still be sinful.

We didn't choose to be born in sin. Yet, we still were sinful from birth. Not optional. That's why Jesus had to come into the world via virgin birth, so that he wouldn't share in our nature; he had his Father's nature, not Adam's, and thus Jesus was without sin. That's why we must be "born-again"—both spiritually and physically—since we come from Adam. The genetic offspring of the fallen angels were also deemed sinful since angels aren't even suppose to have sex/marry/reproduce in the first place (Mark 12:25): if it deviates from the original design, it is sin. They should've never mingled their seed/DNA with man's seed. That was sin (Leviticus 19:19). Their offspring should have never existed; their offspring was sin.

Secondly, our bodies do need to be changed and will be changed by the end of all this (ties in with being born-again). It's not until we're out of this corruptible body, inside of the new one, that we're fully in the new creation (Romans 8:20-23; 1 Corinthians 15:50-53; 2 Corinthians 5:1-5). Our bodies do need to be changed—obviously by God not us—in order to be fully saved; just like he gave us a new spirit and renewed our minds, he will give us a new body. Flesh and blood cannot enter his Kingdom.

"Cure" is an appropriate word to use. The bible, both in the New and Old Testament, likens sin to a sickness we need to be healed of (Mark 2:17; Isaiah 1:5-6).

Thank you for sharing this.  

[CheyenneServant]

Khalid Ibn Walid

People from all faiths have taken verses from their Holy Books and interpret them according to their desires.

true  

[CheyenneServant]

Rednal

On the other hand, there are denominations who believe that children are not sinful and that if they die below a certain age, they're basically offered a free pass into Heaven should they choose to go. Among other things, the human brain (and decision-making capabilities) are not fully developed for quite a number of years... and you cannot possibly blame a child for things that are quite literally outside of their control. People must sin by choice before they can be held accountable for it; otherwise, you have a God who is cruel in saying "I have created you, but that you deserve death was my decision as well." Which is completely different from the fact that we all choose to sin at some point and bring the associated troubles upon ourselves.

I mean, "Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." (Matthew 19:14, NIV)

I find it hard to believe that Heaven belongs to those who are still wrapped in sin. Just, y'know, on general principle.

If a tree falls on your house, it's not an evil tree. If your friend is beaten by someone wielding a baseball bat, the bat isn't evil. When there's no choice involved, you cannot be morally accountable for something. It's not your fault. Or do you believe that God is so ready to punish everyone that He's going to do it whether they deserve it o
r not? To me, that's not justice. That's just tyranny.

I can see that.  

[CheyenneServant]

apiyo

They know good and well what the Bible says about homosexuality. Leviticus isn't the only place that condemns homosexual lifestyles either. People who are pro-homosexual want to do what ever they want and kid themselves into thinking they have the moral green light to do it. So that's why they butcher the Bible into agreeing with them.

And yes it can be cured by God and it doesn't really matter if what excuses about in vitro environment and having older brothers people come up with. God doesn't set us up to burn in lusts(1 Corinthians 10:13, Matthew 6:13). Unless of course we want to admit that the world is right and He can fix every sin but that one.

That's very right.  

[kdke]

Jesuslittleprincess

It's one thing to admit that homosexuality is a sin, it's another thing entirely to try to change the bible so that it says homosexuality is okay in the eyes of The Lord. It is not. Why else would he cure me? I was a sinner. And I got cured.

I'm sorry, but the bible doesn't say it's a sin to be a homosexual. The bible says it's sinful to do homosexual acts. If you can show me proof, anywhere, where the bible suggests it's sinful to be homosexual, then show me, but I've seen none.

If you believe God has taken away all your homosexual desires, then perhaps He did. Perhaps that was His plan for you. Thing is, though, that there are many people out there who are amazing Christians that still deal with homosexual desires.

What matters is the fruit that someone produces. Bible says that you can tell a tree by its fruit: if the fruit is good, then the tree is good; if the fruit is bad, then the tree is bad. A bad tree can't produce good fruit. If a man or woman has come to God, has been saved, and lives a life forever struggling with the inclination to sin in a homosexual way, but never gives in, I say that the person is a good Christian who has been graced with temperance, something that many people lack in this day and age.

I won't look and say, "That person is a homosexual, and no matter how they live; no matter how much God has gifted them with the grace to be in control and uphold their body as a temple for the Holy Spirit and has helped his/her brothers and sisters in Christ; to me, they will always be diseased." Because honestly, sister, that is what you are actually saying. You say homosexuality needs to be cured; I say homosexuality is just another result of man's fallen nature, a nature that we're all born into. Fighting against that fallen nature is something that we have to face every day, especially as Christians.

EDIT:

We're all sinners, even after salvation. I've not met one Christian who hasn't given in to temptation one way or another at some point in their Christian life, even just once. It happens, and that's why there's repentance. God wouldn't offer repentance if He knew we wouldn't need it after being saved;

I do believe, though, that sin can be cured, but I suppose I believe in it in a different way than you do. I believe Jesus is the cure, but from what I've seen in the bible, it's a cure that calls for constant attention from us through God's grace. If we don't use God's grace, and we don't follow Jesus, what good is a cure when we turn around and do what caused us to need a cure in the first place? That's why the commands of Jesus and His apostles, and God, to do certain things: repent when you've sinned, exhort others, reproach others, judge yourself, lean on God's understanding, pray for constant deliverance, etc. I wish our salvation was a process of never stumbling again, but it isn't.  

[apiyo]

ca adam

Jesuslittleprincess

I'm sorry, but the bible doesn't say it's a sin to be a homosexual. The bible says it's sinful to do homosexual acts. If you can show me proof, anywhere, where the bible suggests it's sinful to be homosexual, then show me, but I've seen none.

If you believe God has taken away all your homosexual desires, then perhaps He did. Perhaps that was His plan for you. Thing is, though, that there are many people out there who are amazing Christians that still deal with homosexual desires.

What matters is the fruit that someone produces. Bible says that you can tell a tree by its fruit: if the fruit is good, then the tree is good; if the fruit is bad, then the tree is bad. A bad tree can't produce good fruit. If a man or woman has come to God, has been saved, and lives a life forever struggling with the inclination to sin in a homosexual way, but never gives in, I say that the person is a good Christian who has been graced with temperance, something that many people lack in this day and age.

I won't look and say, "That person is a homosexual, and no matter how they live; no matter how much God has gifted them with the grace to be in control and uphold their body as a temple for the Holy Spirit and has helped his/her brothers and sisters in Christ; to me, they will always be diseased." Because honestly, sister, that is what you are actually saying. You say homosexuality needs to be cured; I say homosexuality is just another result of man's fallen nature, a nature that we're all born into. Fighting against that fallen nature is something that we have to face every day, especially as Christians.

EDIT:

I do believe, though, that sin can be cured, but I suppose I believe in it in a different way than you do. I believe Jesus is the cure, but from what I've seen in the bible, it's a cure that calls for constant attention from us through God's grace. If we don't use God's grace, and we don't follow Jesus, what good is a cure when we turn around and do what caused us to need a cure in the first place? That's why the commands of Jesus and His apostles, and God, to do certain things: repent when you've sinned, exhort others, reproach others, judge yourself, lean on God's understanding, pray for constant deliverance, etc. I wish our salvation was a process of never stumbling again, but it isn't.

Yeah, you're right in saying that everyone stumbles with homosexuality after salvation and need grace. Exactly, that's what it's there for. But there's a difference between sincere repentance-and-stumble and grace abuse.

If someone has the homosexual desires or gets pulled into the identity at times, then fine, thank God for grace and the Holy Spirit. But the operative word is STRUGGLE. Meaning an inward fight between homosexuality in their heart versus the desire for holiness. If a person is trying to be non-gay and slips up or finds them self lusting despite their best efforts then, again, yay grace. But if someone is actively and un-repentantly engaged in the homosexuality, then that's not "struggling," they decided they're going to do what they want and God's standards don't apply to them.

Also the being an un-repentant homosexual is wrong. This concept is referred to in Matthew 5:28 but about adultery (looking at a woman in lust makes one an adulterer). So if you mean a previous homosexual currently struggling with those desires can be Christian, then absolutely. But if you mean "homosexual" as someone practicing and identifying as gay with no intention to stop, well that's not good fruit and they aren't upholding their body as a temple of God.

You're right that homosexuality is one of the many results of fallen man, but that shouldn't be a cop out. Homosexuality is from the fall, so that admits there's a corruption that needs to be corrected. Immediately, or gradually, but corrected all the same.  

[kdke]

apiyo

Yeah, you're right in saying that everyone stumbles with homosexuality after salvation and need grace. Exactly, that's what it's there for. But there's a difference between sincere repentance-and-stumble and grace abuse.

If someone has the homosexual desires or gets pulled into the identity at times, then fine, thank God for grace and the Holy Spirit. But the operative word is STRUGGLE. Meaning an inward fight between homosexuality in their heart versus the desire for holiness. If a person is trying to be non-gay and slips up or finds them self lusting despite their best efforts then, again, yay grace. But if someone is actively and un-repentantly engaged in the homosexuality, then that's not "struggling," they decided they're going to do what they want and God's standards don't apply to them.

Also the being an un-repentant homosexual is wrong. This concept is referred to in Matthew 5:28 but about adultery (looking at a woman in lust makes one an adulterer). So if you mean a previous homosexual currently struggling with those desires can be Christian, then absolutely. But if you mean "homosexual" as someone practicing and identifying as gay with no intention to stop, well that's not good fruit and they aren't upholding their body as a temple of God.

You're right that homosexuality is one of the many results of fallen man, but that shouldn't be a cop out. Homosexuality is from the fall, so that admits there's a corruption that needs to be corrected. Immediately, or gradually, but corrected all the same.

I actually don't disagree with you. No way am I saying that being homosexual is a cop out for indulging in homosexual desires. I would never say that. If I were to say that, I might as well say being straight is a cop out for lusting after the opposite sex all the time, when it's not. Adultery of the heart is adultery, homosexual or heterosexual.

In fact, I've been saying what YOU are saying: that a homosexual will struggle with the inclination to give in to their desires, but it's through grace that they can turn away from that inclination. They might always struggle with it, though, as we all do with other sins.

At the same time, if I did meet someone who was a Christian and told me they were gay, I wouldn't assume that they indulge in their homosexual desires, especially if they're living a life that proves otherwise. A good number of Christians who identify with being homosexual (though not enough) don't mean they go around looking at the same sex with a constant feeling of lust, or desire to be in a homosexual relationship. They're only confessing something that they're predisposed to, but could very well be denying themselves, just as anyone is called to deny themselves. Sure, they very well might stumble, but if they repent and keep hold of God's grace, then who am I to judge them?

Many homosexual Christians enter a life of celibacy, and honestly, I think that's wisest. It's a lifestyle that offers complete focus on God, and it's the best choice single Christians can make, lest there's some intention for a man and woman to marry. Better to marry than to burn with passion, right? Whatever the case....

For me, and this is just an opinion—I think when it comes to homosexuality, people don't focus enough on the actions. I've met many homosexuals with the desire to do good and be for God, only to be turned away from Christianity because someone called them evil for being homosexual, and that they'll burn in hell if they don't turn straight. I think that if those people had been given some acceptance and compassion, they would've been more open to the reality that whatever we feel inclined to act out, what matters is putting God and His commandments first. Everything else follows: grace, holiness, love, and life.