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 Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:12 pm
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:12 am
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:21 am
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:25 am
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:18 am
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IVovacane jack0076970 Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." It does seem to suggest that very thing but in context, on the Sunday morning after his resurrection, He says to Mary "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' " John 20:17 The punctuation was not inspired but added by men and in this case should have come after 'today'. What the thief got that day was assurance that he would be with Jesus in paradise, not a trip there. In the grave. is there proof that it was added by men?
This is worth a read.
http://theaquilareport.com/punctuating-the-bible/ |
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:35 am
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jack0076970 IVovacane jack0076970 Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." It does seem to suggest that very thing but in context, on the Sunday morning after his resurrection, He says to Mary "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' " John 20:17 The punctuation was not inspired but added by men and in this case should have come after 'today'. What the thief got that day was assurance that he would be with Jesus in paradise, not a trip there. In the grave. is there proof that it was added by men? This is worth a read. http://theaquilareport.com/punctuating-the-bible/
Ah. So what happened to the thief when he died? |
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:39 am
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:04 am
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Wherever dead people go, before they get resurrected, sounds like an entirely different place than the Heavens (the skies) Jesus ascended into after his resurrection.
We know Lazarus went straight to paradise after death (a different Lazarus than Mary and Martha's brother) because he, unlike the rich man, is not in torment (Luke 16:19-31). The rich man and Lazarus have just experienced death too; so, they haven't been resurrected yet. In fact, the rich man is asking Abraham to resurrect Lazarus and send him to go warn the rich man's family. Going by what Abraham said in that chapter, people who end up in paradise either suffered and/or believed in what Moses and the prophets said. That's where the thief ended up when he died.
In comparison, I can imagine that Samuel—a true anointed prophet of God (who believed Moses and the prophets)—ended up in paradise too once he died. Yet, when the medium summoned Samuel's soul after death, he came up out of the ground being carried by gods / elohim (1 Samuel 28:13) It's not his body, just his soul since only the medium could see him. Had Samuel been located in the Heavens (the skies), he would've been brought down, not brought up. That's a big difference to Jesus who ascended up into the clouds after his resurrection and when he returns he'll come in the clouds again (Acts 1:11; Revelation 1:7), not up from the ground.
The only people that have ascended up are: Enoch, Elijah and Jesus—all while living, all had a physical body at the time of their ascension (2 Kings 2; Hebrews 11:5; Acts 1:1-11). The only difference being that Enoch and Elijah did not experience death; they didn't need to be resurrected out of the grave/paradise. Paradise and Hades seem to be located in the same place (reading Luke 16:19-31) and they are temporary places obviously since everyone will get resurrected one day and either live with Jesus during the millenium (Revelation 20:4-6) or get resurrected after the millenium to be thrown into the lake of fire if their name isn't written in the Book of Life (Revelation 20:11-15). Notice how hell/hades gets thrown into the lake of fire too.
So, to reiterate:
- to get into Paradise and Hades (Hell), you don't need a resurrected body; you go there straight after death.
- to enter the Kingdom of Heaven or get thrown into the lake of fire, you do need to be resurrected (or you never died like Enoch or Elijah, or the people who are living upon Jesus' return, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
Also interesting, the location of paradise is in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-4), which must mean that God's throne, Jesus, Enoch and Elijah must be in a higher level of heaven. Deep space and beyond? To answer the question then, I say yes, the thief did go to Paradise when he died as did Jesus. He needs to be resurrected to live with the resurrected Jesus though.
edit: a general outline of what happened to Jesus:
Jesus dies → goes to paradise/sheol → gets resurrected/raised from the dead after 3 days → spends 40 days with the apostles → ascends into the clouds
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:30 pm
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real eyes realize In comparison, I can imagine that Samuel—a true anointed prophet of God (who believed Moses and the prophets)—ended up in paradise too once he died. Yet, when the medium summoned Samuel's soul after death, he came up out of the ground being carried by gods / elohim ( 1 Samuel 28:13) It's not his body, just his soul since only the medium could see him. Had Samuel been located in the Heavens (the skies), he would've been brought down, not brought up. That's a big difference to Jesus who ascended up into the clouds after his resurrection and when he returns he'll come in the clouds again (Acts 1:11; Revelation 1:7), not up from the ground.
Am about to go out so only have time for a brief reply for now but something to think about…
Leviticus 19:21 “ ‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.”
There’s an inherent danger in the suggestion that it was really Samuel because it legitimizes the work of mediums, and ignores the real likelihood that this was in fact in evil spirit from Satan appearing in the form of Samuel. In verse 6 of 1 Samuel 28 Saul first seeks the Lord but the Lord did not answer him, “either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets”.
Would Samuel, as a man of God, respond to that which God has said do not seek and then receive the homage of Saul as he did? And further/worse still given that “Samuel” gave a message beyond his scope either to know or create, would effectively God Himself have given a message through her He was fully capable of giving either through Urim (Urim... no idea... thanks Google) or His own prophets? |
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:01 pm
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jack0076970 real eyes realize In comparison, I can imagine that Samuel—a true anointed prophet of God (who believed Moses and the prophets)—ended up in paradise too once he died. Yet, when the medium summoned Samuel's soul after death, he came up out of the ground being carried by gods / elohim ( 1 Samuel 28:13) It's not his body, just his soul since only the medium could see him. Had Samuel been located in the Heavens (the skies), he would've been brought down, not brought up. That's a big difference to Jesus who ascended up into the clouds after his resurrection and when he returns he'll come in the clouds again (Acts 1:11; Revelation 1:7), not up from the ground. Am about to go out so only have time for a brief reply for now but something to think about… Leviticus 19:21 “ ‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.” There’s an inherent danger in the suggestion that it was really Samuel because it legitimizes the work of mediums, and ignores the real likelihood that this was in fact in evil spirit from Satan appearing in the form of Samuel. In verse 6 of 1 Samuel 28 Saul first seeks the Lord but the Lord did not answer him, “either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets”. Would Samuel, as a man of God, respond to that which God has said do not seek and then receive the homage of Saul as he did? And further/worse still given that “Samuel” gave a message beyond his scope either to know or create, would effectively God Himself have given a message through her He was fully capable of giving either through Urim ( Urim... no idea... thanks Google) or His own prophets?
I questioned the very same thing upon first reading it; I started reading the bible chronologically and as a result came upon the condemnation of mediums early on. Samuel, however, clearly did not come out of his own volition (he was carried there by some type of divine escort and he explicitly says, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" in v. 15, then after Saul tells Samuel he can't contact YHWH, Samuel says, and I'm paraphrasing, "Why do you consult me if God won't answer you?" rhetorical question: I'm not going to answer you either. Go back to what was prophesied.) Samuel wasn't saying anything new; his reply was basically what he had already prophesied in 1 Samuel 13:13-14 and 1 Samuel 15:24-28 while he was alive, that YHWH has rejected you (King Saul), someone else with YHWH's heart will inherit the throne (David), the land will be handed over to your neighbors (Philistines and David), so deal with the consequences of your actions. He pointed him back to the prophecy that had already been revealed. That's what Saul should've done in the first place: gone to the scrolls, not a medium. According to 1 Samuel 15:35, the time he revealed that prophecy was the last time they spoke while Samuel was alive. It doesn't legitimize mediumship at all because it wasn't successful; Saul didn't get what he wanted. His many attempts to contact YHWH appear to have been made with the intention to beg him to stop this calamity (the Philistines attacking), but the calamity was YHWH's will and had been prophesied already (throne torn away).
edit: also, what Samuel said in 1 Samuel 28 when he was summoned (about Saul's sons) actually did come to pass in 1 Samuel 31. We know a word is from God if the message actually comes to pass (Deuteronomy 18:21-22) and doesn't contradict any of the older revelations that have been established as true (Isaiah 8:20). As a side note, not even 1 Samuel 28 speaks approvingly of seeking mediums so YHWH is not commending it as a legit way to consult him. |
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:17 pm
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real eyes realize jack0076970 real eyes realize In comparison, I can imagine that Samuel—a true anointed prophet of God (who believed Moses and the prophets)—ended up in paradise too once he died. Yet, when the medium summoned Samuel's soul after death, he came up out of the ground being carried by gods / elohim ( 1 Samuel 28:13) It's not his body, just his soul since only the medium could see him. Had Samuel been located in the Heavens (the skies), he would've been brought down, not brought up. That's a big difference to Jesus who ascended up into the clouds after his resurrection and when he returns he'll come in the clouds again (Acts 1:11; Revelation 1:7), not up from the ground. Am about to go out so only have time for a brief reply for now but something to think about… Leviticus 19:21 “ ‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.” There’s an inherent danger in the suggestion that it was really Samuel because it legitimizes the work of mediums, and ignores the real likelihood that this was in fact in evil spirit from Satan appearing in the form of Samuel. In verse 6 of 1 Samuel 28 Saul first seeks the Lord but the Lord did not answer him, “either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets”. Would Samuel, as a man of God, respond to that which God has said do not seek and then receive the homage of Saul as he did? And further/worse still given that “Samuel” gave a message beyond his scope either to know or create, would effectively God Himself have given a message through her He was fully capable of giving either through Urim ( Urim... no idea... thanks Google) or His own prophets? I questioned the very same thing upon first reading it; I started reading the bible chronologically and as a result came upon the condemnation of mediums early on. Samuel, however, clearly did not come out of his own volition (he was carried there by some type of divine escort and he explicitly says, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" in v. 15, then after Saul tells Samuel he can't contact YHWH, Samuel says, and I'm paraphrasing, "Why do you consult me if God won't answer you?" rhetorical question: I'm not going to answer you either. Go back to what was prophesied.) Samuel wasn't saying anything new; his reply was basically what he had already prophesied in 1 Samuel 13:13-14 and 1 Samuel 15:24-28 while he was alive, that YHWH has rejected you (King Saul), someone else with YHWH's heart will inherit the throne (David), the land will be handed over to your neighbors (Philistines and David), so deal with the consequences of your actions. He pointed him back to the prophecy that had already been revealed. That's what Saul should've done in the first place: gone to the scrolls, not a medium. According to 1 Samuel 15:35, the time he revealed that prophecy was the last time they spoke while Samuel was alive. It doesn't legitimize mediumship at all because it wasn't successful; Saul didn't get what he wanted. His many attempts to contact YHWH appear to have been made with the intention to beg him to stop this calamity (the Philistines attacking), but the calamity was YHWH's will and had been prophesied already (throne torn away). edit: also, what Samuel said in 1 Samuel 28 when he was summoned (about Saul's sons) actually did come to pass in 1 Samuel 31. We know a word is from God if the message actually comes to pass (Deuteronomy 18:21-22) and doesn't contradict any of the older revelations that have been established as true (Isaiah 8:20). As a side note, not even 1 Samuel 28 speaks approvingly of seeking mediums so YHWH is not commending it as a legit way to consult him.
Satan certainly would have access to the plans of both the Israelites & the Phillistines. Reading from the following accounts I can't definitely say that the battle happened the very next day but besides that point and assuming that the battle indeed happened the next day, did everything come to pass that "Samuel" prophesied?
"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that was a medium, to seek council;" (1 Chronicles 10:13)
If indeed it was God speaking though "Samuel", would it follow then that the wicked go to Paradise seeing that it was indeed said that "you and your sons will be with me"?
It does pose an additional problem if the story of the rich man and Lazarus is to be taken literally (and it shouldn't) that the rich man certainly doesn't end up in any kind of paradise. |
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:30 pm
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jack0076970 real eyes realize jack0076970 real eyes realize In comparison, I can imagine that Samuel—a true anointed prophet of God (who believed Moses and the prophets)—ended up in paradise too once he died. Yet, when the medium summoned Samuel's soul after death, he came up out of the ground being carried by gods / elohim ( 1 Samuel 28:13) It's not his body, just his soul since only the medium could see him. Had Samuel been located in the Heavens (the skies), he would've been brought down, not brought up. That's a big difference to Jesus who ascended up into the clouds after his resurrection and when he returns he'll come in the clouds again (Acts 1:11; Revelation 1:7), not up from the ground. Am about to go out so only have time for a brief reply for now but something to think about… Leviticus 19:21 “ ‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.” There’s an inherent danger in the suggestion that it was really Samuel because it legitimizes the work of mediums, and ignores the real likelihood that this was in fact in evil spirit from Satan appearing in the form of Samuel. In verse 6 of 1 Samuel 28 Saul first seeks the Lord but the Lord did not answer him, “either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets”. Would Samuel, as a man of God, respond to that which God has said do not seek and then receive the homage of Saul as he did? And further/worse still given that “Samuel” gave a message beyond his scope either to know or create, would effectively God Himself have given a message through her He was fully capable of giving either through Urim ( Urim... no idea... thanks Google) or His own prophets? I questioned the very same thing upon first reading it; I started reading the bible chronologically and as a result came upon the condemnation of mediums early on. Samuel, however, clearly did not come out of his own volition (he was carried there by some type of divine escort and he explicitly says, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" in v. 15, then after Saul tells Samuel he can't contact YHWH, Samuel says, and I'm paraphrasing, "Why do you consult me if God won't answer you?" rhetorical question: I'm not going to answer you either. Go back to what was prophesied.) Samuel wasn't saying anything new; his reply was basically what he had already prophesied in 1 Samuel 13:13-14 and 1 Samuel 15:24-28 while he was alive, that YHWH has rejected you (King Saul), someone else with YHWH's heart will inherit the throne (David), the land will be handed over to your neighbors (Philistines and David), so deal with the consequences of your actions. He pointed him back to the prophecy that had already been revealed. That's what Saul should've done in the first place: gone to the scrolls, not a medium. According to 1 Samuel 15:35, the time he revealed that prophecy was the last time they spoke while Samuel was alive. It doesn't legitimize mediumship at all because it wasn't successful; Saul didn't get what he wanted. His many attempts to contact YHWH appear to have been made with the intention to beg him to stop this calamity (the Philistines attacking), but the calamity was YHWH's will and had been prophesied already (throne torn away). edit: also, what Samuel said in 1 Samuel 28 when he was summoned (about Saul's sons) actually did come to pass in 1 Samuel 31. We know a word is from God if the message actually comes to pass (Deuteronomy 18:21-22) and doesn't contradict any of the older revelations that have been established as true (Isaiah 8:20). As a side note, not even 1 Samuel 28 speaks approvingly of seeking mediums so YHWH is not commending it as a legit way to consult him. Satan certainly would have access to the plans of both the Israelites & the Phillistines. Reading from the following accounts I can't definitely say that the battle happened the very next day but besides that point and assuming that the battle indeed happened the next day, did everything come to pass that "Samuel" prophesied? "So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that was a medium, to seek council;" (1 Chronicles 10:13) If indeed it was God speaking though "Samuel", would it follow then that the wicked go to Paradise seeing that it was indeed said that "you and your sons will be with me"? It does pose an additional problem if the story of the rich man and Lazarus is to be taken literally (and it shouldn't) that the rich man certainly doesn't end up in any kind of paradise.
You're forgetting that it's only separated by a chasm, but you can see and communicate with people on either side of the chasm (one side being Paradise, the other being Hell). Like I said, Lake of Fire (Gehenna, sometimes translated as "hell" too) and Hades (also translated as hell in other places) are two different places. Hell/Hades gets thrown into the lake of fire/Gehenna in Revelation 20:14. The rich man went to hell/hades when he died. Lazarus went to paradise when he died. The 2nd resurrection has to happen before people get thrown into the lake/gehenna.
& Yes, what Samuel prophesied came to pass; hence, my parenthetical statements identifying the people who fulfilled those details of the prophecy. |
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:06 pm
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:44 pm
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jack0076970 This deserves a more thorough answer but for now... What difference do you see between where the rich man is now (presumably given the interpretation from Luke provided) and the lake of fire?
The difference:
it is temporary
no resurrection is needed to enter *
you go there straight after death like the rich man and Lazarus
* (seeing as there's no resurrection or great white throne judgment between verses 22 and 23; the rich man even suggesting Lazarus be resurrected in v. 27-30).
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. — Luke 16:22-23 (NIV)
^ That suggests they went there immediately.
The lake of fire on the otherhand:
sounds permanent
a mass resurrection takes place before those individuals are thrown in, the 2nd resurrection to be specific.
It's utterly empty right now. No false prophet, no beast, no Satan, no "2nd resurrection" people. Notice the chronology (this is after the tribulation):
Revelation 20 (KJV)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
1st resurrection = you reign with Christ during the 1000 years; you avoid the Lake of Fire/second death completely.
2nd resurrection = takes place after the 1000 years; you're subject to the Great White throne judgment and risk getting thrown into the lake of fire/experiencing the second death. Again, this is after the tribulation, after the millenial reign and after Satan is locked up for 1000 years and subsequently released (and thrown into the lake himself). There is absolutely no one there right now. Unlike where the rich man is (that place is populated by at least three people for sure, on their respective sides of the chasm lol).
jack0076970 Would you say that there is free communication & viewing between these 2 temporal places - paradise & the other & how would you describe this paradise?
There's some sort of communication; Abraham is conversing with the rich man, yet they're on opposite sides of the chasm. We're not told why Lazarus isn't speaking; we can't really speculate beyond what Jesus decided to divulge. The only thing Jesus said about the side Lazarus and Abraham are on, in terms of description, is that it's a place of comfort (Lk 16:25), whereas the rich man is in some sort of agony. Taking the rich man's thirst into consideration and the heat, it almost seems like the same treatment he gave Lazarus in life, he's now receiving in death as he waits for his resurrection (i.e. not satiating Lazarus' physical needs or alleviating his pain, even though he had more than enough money, food, and linen clothes to spare. Instead he left Lazarus exposed to the elements and the sun, never invited him in to eat or rather never went out to him to give him food). |
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:53 pm
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real eyes realize Wherever dead people go, before they get resurrected, sounds like an entirely different place than the Heavens (the skies) Jesus ascended into after his resurrection. We know Lazarus went straight to paradise after death (a different Lazarus than Mary and Martha's brother) because he, unlike the rich man, is not in torment (Luke 16:19-31). The rich man and Lazarus have just experienced death too; so, they haven't been resurrected yet. In fact, the rich man is asking Abraham to resurrect Lazarus and send him to go warn the rich man's family. Going by what Abraham said in that chapter, people who end up in paradise either suffered and/or believed in what Moses and the prophets said. That's where the thief ended up when he died. In comparison, I can imagine that Samuel—a true anointed prophet of God (who believed Moses and the prophets)—ended up in paradise too once he died. Yet, when the medium summoned Samuel's soul after death, he came up out of the ground being carried by gods / elohim ( 1 Samuel 28:13) It's not his body, just his soul since only the medium could see him. Had Samuel been located in the Heavens (the skies), he would've been brought down, not brought up. That's a big difference to Jesus who ascended up into the clouds after his resurrection and when he returns he'll come in the clouds again (Acts 1:11; Revelation 1:7), not up from the ground. The only people that have ascended up are: Enoch, Elijah and Jesus—all while living, all had a physical body at the time of their ascension (2 Kings 2; Hebrews 11:5; Acts 1:1-11). The only difference being that Enoch and Elijah did not experience death; they didn't need to be resurrected out of the grave/paradise. Paradise and Hades seem to be located in the same place (reading Luke 16:19-31) and they are temporary places obviously since everyone will get resurrected one day and either live with Jesus during the millenium (Revelation 20:4-6) or get resurrected after the millenium to be thrown into the lake of fire if their name isn't written in the Book of Life (Revelation 20:11-15). Notice how hell/hades gets thrown into the lake of fire too. So, to reiterate: - to get into Paradise and Hades (Hell), you don't need a resurrected body; you go there straight after death. - to enter the Kingdom of Heaven or get thrown into the lake of fire, you do need to be resurrected (or you never died like Enoch or Elijah, or the people who are living upon Jesus' return, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). Also interesting, the location of paradise is in the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-4), which must mean that God's throne, Jesus, Enoch and Elijah must be in a higher level of heaven. Deep space and beyond? To answer the question then, I say yes, the thief did go to Paradise when he died as did Jesus. He needs to be resurrected to live with the resurrected Jesus though. edit: a general outline of what happened to Jesus: Jesus dies → goes to paradise/sheol → gets resurrected/raised from the dead after 3 days → spends 40 days with the apostles → ascends into the clouds
Sorry, just some clarification would be great...
In the 3rd paragraph you mentioned that the paradise where Samuel ended up must be in the ground because he came up as opposed to heaven where Jesus went or he would have come down.
Yet then you locate paradise in the 3rd heaven & move God's throne, Jesus and so on to a higher location yet again - deep space/beyond. The bible refers to 3 heavens (the Jews apparently hold to 7) - the atmospheric heavens (for the birds, clouds etc), the starry heavens for the sun, moon, stars etc, and heaven where God, angels etc dwell. Even if we added a fourth heaven to allow for paradise in the middle would Samuel be coming down or up? |
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