Deuteronomy 23:2 AKA The b*****d Children Debate

[Sachie Whitby]

If you're not familiar with Deuteronomy 23:2, this is the one which states how bastards [which we're defining specifically as someone of an illegitimate birth, nothing else] cannot enter into the assembly of the lord.

I know that the official Catholic viewpoint on this is that God does not punish children for the sins of their parents to such an extreme degree. Even if someone's parents were never married [or got divorced before they were born], they still possess the potential to be saved. There is no circumstance that would cause someone to automatically go to hell just for being born. There is even one saint [person believed to be in heaven] that was a former slave and unlikely to have had a birth with properly married parents.

BUT....

I also know that not everyone shares this viewpoint. Some denominational protestant faiths would say that the marital status of one's parents does matter when it comes to salvation to the extent that all b*****d children go to hell. I've also seen other individuals [of unknown denomination] say that if someone is born under such circumstances that they don't exist at all to God to the extent of not having a soul.

With how rampant promiscuity appears to be in current American culture, it really does make me wonder what non-Catholics think on this. Is hell going to have to extend the size of its b*****d children wing or do you think such individuals possess the ability to be saved?  

[Rednal]

That is one of the silliest interpretations of scripture that I have ever heard.

As far as I understand the issue, the "assembly of the Lord" is a reference to marriage, especially marriage to an Israelite ("Jews", as such, didn't exist then). Banning children of illegitimate birth from certain marriages actually makes a sort of sense, because an illegitimate birth could very easily be, say, the result of incest (and all the associated genetic problems). Alternately, sleeping with someone you're not married to can result in the transfer of STD's and such throughout a greater portion of the population, which is bad. Or, you know, maybe God just wanted to promote proper marriages and families or something.


Still, to the best of my knowledge, this has nothing at all to do with personal salvation and going to Heaven/Hell. I don't agree with the Catholics on everything, but I would agree that any child, regardless of parentage, has the opportunity to be saved.  

[Aquatic_blue]

Everyone has the right for salvation because of Jesus' sacrifice for us. No one has less than that chance - it's the same for everybody.  

[real eyes realize]

I don't think "Assembly of the Lord" is limited to marrying into the body of Israel. In context of all the people that were "banned" in that chapter, it could either mean (A.) acquiring any kind of citizenship into the city of God's people (who live in the presence of God / the tabernacle) or (B.) it's a list of people who can't partake in the rituals, nor hold administrative positions, in the body of believers. Though, of course, if the first is true then so is the second (if a b*****d isn't living within the city, then he's not going to hold any position of authority in the city either).

Interestingly, in Revelation 22 there are certain people banned from living in God's Holy city too (the city being the New Jerusalem on the New Earth) and when talking about who has the right to inherit the city, a few verses stand out:

Quote:

Revelation 21:7-8, 27 (NIV)

7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

[...]

27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Nothing impure. Of course, by now, we understand this is about sinful character and not physical defects. Even still, knowing that bodies are defective because of sin, it was a really appropriate symbol (nothing sinful/malfunctioning/deviating from God's will can serve God or take people's sin away edit: unless their sins are atoned for and those physical and spiritual imperfections taken away). In the future, resurrected people aren't going to be living in this body which has defects. So it can only be referring to character imperfections / loving sin, not physical traits of the flesh. Going back to Deuteronomy, and knowing what these physical sins/imperfections represent, those who had their testicles crushed or removed were also considered unfit to enter the assembly (Deuteronomy 23:1); a statement repeated in Leviticus 21:16-23 where YHWH forbids them from serving as priests. So if a natural-born Israelite or foreigner became castrated for some reason, they weren't allowed to serve as priests (because they have imperfections). So at the very least, Deuteronomy 23:2 is referring to people who can't be in authority. No one reigning with Christ in the millenium will have sin in them either; the people reigning with Christ must be pure too: they've been resurrected, given new bodies, they have no physical imperfections and no sins, because Jesus died for those sins, and they're qualified to reign alongside him—and that's in Revelation 20, before we even get to the Holy City.

But to relate it back to b*****d offspring, I think we have to understand what marriage is symbolizing in order to apply it to the future. Scripture uses marriage as the analogy to represent Christ uniting with the Church (with people who are believers in the Father and the Son); further, we know that after the resurrection people don't marry (Matthew 22:30), which makes sense; the purpose / symbol of marriage has been fulfilled. We're united with Christ. So, what will a person born out of wedlock represent at that point? people "born" outside of Christ + Church, will be people who aren't believers? outside of the covenant? That's what b*****d children symbolize prophetically, I think. Same with the fallen angels who begot children with human women: that union was unlawful and their offspring were destroyed in the flood. Anything outside of God's will/design is sin and will either be reconciled/repented/brought back under covenant/fixed/made new...or destroyed/separated from God forever.

Other verses in Revelation 21 suggest that there will be people living outside of the city (verses 24-26), but these individuals can't be impure or have any defects either, or else they'd be in the lake of fire by then. Perhaps that's an additional meaning Jesus had in mind when he says we can come in and go out in John 10:9; it's just the righteous/redeemed/repented people living inside and outside the city.

Quote:

Revelation 21:24-26 (NIV)

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

So, I don't think citizenship in the Kingdom has anything to do with hell. The remaining people in Hell would have been resurrected by then, and Hell itself was thrown into the lake of fire in the previous chapter before we get to the Holy City (Revelation 20:13-15). If b*****d offspring represent individuals who aren't under covenant, aren't in lawful union with the Creator and his family, then they won't be living with him in the city. Nothing outside of what YHWH says is right will live in his presence.

I hope this didn't sound confusing, lol. In short, I'm saying that just like physically castrated people couldn't serve as priests, and thus symbolized that priest couldn't have imperfections (sin-wise), b*****d offspring represent something spiritual too: everything and anything outside of the covenant cannot be with God. Bastards can be saved just as much as castrated people, if they become a believer under covenant and repent from their sins.  

[Sachie Whitby]

real eyes realize

I hope this didn't sound confusing, lol.

I would say that it is confusing only in that you're a bit all over the place. In the last sentence, you seem in agreement that b*****d children have a chance of salvation just as much as anyone else.... whereas everywhere else, you seem more in agreement with the people that say that b*****d children are so outside of God's laws that they don't even go to hell as they have no soul to begin with.  

[real eyes realize]

Sachie Whitby

real eyes realize

I hope this didn't sound confusing, lol.

I would say that it is confusing only in that you're a bit all over the place. In the last sentence, you seem in agreement that b*****d children have a chance of salvation just as much as anyone else.... whereas everywhere else, you seem more in agreement with the people that say that b*****d children are so outside of God's laws that they don't even go to hell as they have no soul to begin with.

Wow, people actually take it that far. They're human, so they must have souls. Being born out of wedlock doesn't change your humanity. What it represents, however, is something intolerable: marriage = a covenant; it's representing how no one out of covenant with God will live with God, just like bastards weren't allowed to enter the assembly because they didn't come about from a marriage covenant. I think all of the Old Testament laws and rituals, aside from their function to maintain justice/order/peace, serve as a symbolic representation for who can and cannot dwell with God: only those under covenant who've been forgiven of their sins/defects/disobedience/disease can. It's the same principle for people diagnosed with leprosy; they were kept outside of the camp, out of the tabernacle's presence (which was God's dwelling place) and isolated away from the rest of the citizens who weren't diseased (Leviticus 13:46). Both the righteous and the wicked are getting resurrected, his believers at least will be given an incorruptible body, so a body with defects at the present moment doesn't prevent your soul from getting saved. Likewise, as long as bastards are under covenant with YHWH and repent of sin, it doesn't matter who their parents are; they're not guilty of what being a b*****d represents (being out of covenant) at that point. Just like people with leprosy, who repent and are forgiven of their sins by believing in the Son, are not guilty of what leprosy represents (being sinful/unclean).  

[Sachie Whitby]

real eyes realize

Sachie Whitby

real eyes realize

I hope this didn't sound confusing, lol.

I would say that it is confusing only in that you're a bit all over the place. In the last sentence, you seem in agreement that b*****d children have a chance of salvation just as much as anyone else.... whereas everywhere else, you seem more in agreement with the people that say that b*****d children are so outside of God's laws that they don't even go to hell as they have no soul to begin with.

Wow, people actually take it that far. They're human, so they must have souls. Being born out of wedlock doesn't change your humanity. What it represents, however, is something intolerable: marriage = a covenant; it's representing how no one out of covenant with God will live with God, just like bastards weren't allowed to enter the assembly because they didn't come about from a marriage covenant. I think all of the Old Testament laws and rituals, aside from their function to maintain justice/order/peace, serve as a symbolic representation for who can and cannot dwell with God: only those under covenant who've been forgiven of their sins/defects/disobedience/disease can. It's the same principle for people diagnosed with leprosy; they were kept outside of the camp, out of the tabernacle's presence (which was God's dwelling place) and isolated away from the rest of the citizens who weren't diseased (Leviticus 13:46). Both the righteous and the wicked are getting resurrected, his believers at least will be given an incorruptible body, so a body with defects at the present moment doesn't prevent your soul from getting saved. Likewise, as long as bastards are under covenant with YHWH and repent of sin, it doesn't matter who their parents are; they're not guilty of what being a b*****d represents (being out of covenant) at that point. Just like people with leprosy, who repent and are forgiven of their sins by believing in the Son, are not guilty of what leprosy represents (being sinful/unclean).

And yes, there are people that do take it that far. I've seen the posts on other forums telling someone they have to make amends with their iligitimate child's other parent and get married to so that the child can experience salvation, some going so far as to say that the child won't have a soul if they don't.... It's a horribly ignorant view-point that isn't helpful to anyone, but I also am well aware that these attitudes are very much real due to being related to individuals [won't say with protestant denomination they are] that go around sprouting off such nonsense, which makes them somewhat embarrassing to be around when they get on some ignorant soap box.  

[Meili Kyumee Youichi]

The way I perceived 'assembly of the Lord' based on the context surrounding it, is the "Israel community".
It has no relation to heaven/hell, and it is in the old testament.
Additionally, in the new testament, we are focused on the ultimate law that is
Mark 12:30-31
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.”

Furthermore, each individuals possess the ability to be saved, because it is a gift <3
Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

I'm a Christian and I agree with your position, just like what the Bible said =)

More information if you are interested:
http://lightoftruth.tumblr.com/post/17977107097/actually-the-bible-makes-it-pretty-clear-that-a-child  

[_Leon Camero_]

Can't answer this. Couldn't read the ****** part ( and no, I did not type a curse.... I just shift press 8 )

Edit: never mind. I found out XD

Well, all I can say to this is that God becomes the father to the father less. Basically yes, They can gain salvation. I wouldn't use that word really. They actually do have a father. Otherwise, They never would had been born.


post edited by real eyes realize; PM sent.  

[_Leon Camero_]

[ top post re-edited due to real eye's non permissional removal ]