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 Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:55 pm
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Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:15 pm
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Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:32 pm
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Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:29 pm
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Stoning would be the same thing as capital punishment today. You need to be brought in front of an elder/judge, the elder/judge presides over the "case", makes a ruling/verdict, witnesses are involved. "Stoning" is not the common people taking justice into their own hands, stoning you in an alleyway because they all saw you do something wrong. No, there must be order and authority involved to ensure fairness (Deuteronomy is the book that describes this process more in depth; notice people are brought before a judge/elders whether the punishment of the crime is death by stoning or not; Deu 17:8-13; 19, 21, 22:13-30 & 25).
There is, however, no jury in the Old Testament; the elders/judge(s) decided whether you lived or died, whether you received mercy instead of the deserved punishment. The judge had to be wise and decipher the intention of the plaintiff (for example, hashing out whether or not the plaintiff was trying to cheat the defendant out of something [i.e. the two prostitutes fighting over the infant, 1 Kings 3:16-28]). Also, something I always found interesting, the appointed avenger/revenger of blood in the family was within their right to kill the murderer themselves, even before the trial, IF they found the person outside the levitical cities of refuge (more info on that in Numbers 35, starting at verse 6 and in Deuteronomy 19). If they found out the murder was pre-meditated, they were handed over to the avenger of blood afterwards.
But not to digress, I would say "stoning" never stopped and Jesus does approve of stoning if it's done lawfully, according to his Father's word. The death penalty still exists, does it not? It has just been modernized. I would say that this kind of "hush, hush" death penalty (where they euthanize the criminal via injections) defeats one of the purposes of stoning in the first place: scaring people into not breaking the law. If they sedate you properly, you feel no pain; people with "criminal minds" aren't as scared of committing capital crimes, not as much as if we still had public stonings I would think. The witnesses themselves would do the stoning too after the trial (Deuteronomy 17:7); so if you can't stomach killing a person as a result of accusing them in the first place, then you better be sure of what you're accusing them of committing (I personally cannot imagine myself having to stone someone; I don't want to hurt people, but if it's just, rids evil, and prevents evil, I think I would muster the strength to do it if I had witnessed something and the trial was fair). Deuteronomy 19 gets into more detail about what happens if it turns out the witness had malicious intent (accusing someone falsely just because he wants to see the defendant dead, not necessarily carry out justice).
The Old Testament system is really just. The problems arise because of the corrupt humans who get into these positions and take bribes to maintain political interests/acquaintances, don't take care of the poor and needy who can't afford good lawyers (actually, I don't think lawyers are part of the Old Testament system), and accuse innocent people.
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Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:30 pm
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Naruverse Rednal Well, he did say that those without sin should cast the first stones. I think part of the idea would be that in the Old Testament, people deserved (and generally got) death for their sins and crimes. People were NOT saved any longer than temporarily (offerings, etc.). Come Jesus, it's time for things to be forgiven, for a new covenant to be made among the people. Nowadays, the common idea seems to be that God will hold each of us accountable for our sins, and we don't really need to bother with things like stoning specifically because of that. Of course, that brings up the question of just how many things in the Old Testament we should be basing our modern rules and laws around, but that's another subject... They brought out the adulteress but not the man she committed the act with. Moses said to bring both man and woman. Jesus said to woman to not sin again. So did he forbid stoning or just that act because it wasn't properly prepared?
I believe what Jesus was trying to do here was to show grace and mercy upon this woman.
Perhaps this woman even changed her ways and believed in Jesus from then on, but we don't know how her life was after that incident and if she had changed her ways or not. However, if we put ourselves in this woman's place and we were about to be stoned to death and a man shows up and stops the stoning from taking place - how would we view this man (Jesus)? Would we feel touched that He stood up for us and saved us from the death penalty? Would we have listened to what He said because He saved our life? |
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Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:47 pm
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Aquatic_blue Naruverse Rednal Well, he did say that those without sin should cast the first stones. I think part of the idea would be that in the Old Testament, people deserved (and generally got) death for their sins and crimes. People were NOT saved any longer than temporarily (offerings, etc.). Come Jesus, it's time for things to be forgiven, for a new covenant to be made among the people. Nowadays, the common idea seems to be that God will hold each of us accountable for our sins, and we don't really need to bother with things like stoning specifically because of that. Of course, that brings up the question of just how many things in the Old Testament we should be basing our modern rules and laws around, but that's another subject... They brought out the adulteress but not the man she committed the act with. Moses said to bring both man and woman. Jesus said to woman to not sin again. So did he forbid stoning or just that act because it wasn't properly prepared? I believe what Jesus was trying to do here was to show grace and mercy upon this woman. Perhaps this woman even changed her ways and believed in Jesus from then on, but we don't know how her life was after that incident and if she had changed her ways or not. However, if we put ourselves in this woman's place and we were about to be stoned to death and a man shows up and stops the stoning from taking place - how would we view this man (Jesus)? Would we feel touched that He stood up for us and saved us from the death penalty? Would we have listened to what He said because He saved our life?
Yes, but the topic isn't about what happened to the girl afterwards, the topic is should Christians stone people.
The Law of Moses would've been broken because both the male and female had to be stoned, but only the female was there. Scholars say that the one who was with the adulteress tried to stone her and was one of the Pharisees.
Also, Jesus was writing the names of the people who were with her that was there. But there's not any evidence of that.
Now, back on topic. Did Jesus approve of stonings that are properly prepared? Or did he end it in that event? |
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Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:55 pm
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Aquatic_blue Naruverse Rednal Well, he did say that those without sin should cast the first stones. I think part of the idea would be that in the Old Testament, people deserved (and generally got) death for their sins and crimes. People were NOT saved any longer than temporarily (offerings, etc.). Come Jesus, it's time for things to be forgiven, for a new covenant to be made among the people. Nowadays, the common idea seems to be that God will hold each of us accountable for our sins, and we don't really need to bother with things like stoning specifically because of that. Of course, that brings up the question of just how many things in the Old Testament we should be basing our modern rules and laws around, but that's another subject... They brought out the adulteress but not the man she committed the act with. Moses said to bring both man and woman. Jesus said to woman to not sin again. So did he forbid stoning or just that act because it wasn't properly prepared? I believe what Jesus was trying to do here was to show grace and mercy upon this woman. Perhaps this woman even changed her ways and believed in Jesus from then on, but we don't know how her life was after that incident and if she had changed her ways or not. However, if we put ourselves in this woman's place and we were about to be stoned to death and a man shows up and stops the stoning from taking place - how would we view this man (Jesus)? Would we feel touched that He stood up for us and saved us from the death penalty? Would we have listened to what He said because He saved our life?
It was both a matter of, "i'm going to be merciful and give you a chance to repent", but also "this accusation is being brought upon you unfairly and I would refuse to prosecute this had my first coming been about condemning people". His first coming is about saving the world, getting them to repent. His second coming is about killing off the wicked. It's all about judgment when he shows up again. Those who belong to him have repented by then; all that's left are the obstinate wicked people. |
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Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:26 pm
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Naruverse Aquatic_blue Naruverse Rednal Well, he did say that those without sin should cast the first stones. I think part of the idea would be that in the Old Testament, people deserved (and generally got) death for their sins and crimes. People were NOT saved any longer than temporarily (offerings, etc.). Come Jesus, it's time for things to be forgiven, for a new covenant to be made among the people. Nowadays, the common idea seems to be that God will hold each of us accountable for our sins, and we don't really need to bother with things like stoning specifically because of that. Of course, that brings up the question of just how many things in the Old Testament we should be basing our modern rules and laws around, but that's another subject... They brought out the adulteress but not the man she committed the act with. Moses said to bring both man and woman. Jesus said to woman to not sin again. So did he forbid stoning or just that act because it wasn't properly prepared? I believe what Jesus was trying to do here was to show grace and mercy upon this woman. Perhaps this woman even changed her ways and believed in Jesus from then on, but we don't know how her life was after that incident and if she had changed her ways or not. However, if we put ourselves in this woman's place and we were about to be stoned to death and a man shows up and stops the stoning from taking place - how would we view this man (Jesus)? Would we feel touched that He stood up for us and saved us from the death penalty? Would we have listened to what He said because He saved our life? Yes, but the topic isn't about what happened to the girl afterwards, the topic is should Christians stone people. The Law of Moses would've been broken because both the male and female had to be stoned, but only the female was there. Scholars say that the one who was with the adulteress tried to stone her and was one of the Pharisees. Also, Jesus was writing the names of the people who were with her that was there. But there's not any evidence of that. Now, back on topic. Did Jesus approve of stonings that are properly prepared? Or did he end it in that event?
Considering only the female was there and it wouldn't have been "proper" to stone her and not the male as well - it's possible Jesus could have stopped it there because it wouldn't have been just. It would have been incomplete to stone one person and not the other since in accordance to the Law both would have been stoned. However, I do believe that God approved of stonings if done in accordance with the Law because it probably preserved the Jewish nation and probably prevented crimes that were against God from happening. Stoning was their form of capital punishment.
I can't say for sure that God approves of it in our society or not. I'm not sure if this is a thing that stopped in society because people found it to be inhumane, wrong, etc. or if it stopped because of the grace period that Jesus brought when He came to earth. When Jesus showed up, it was about telling others the good news as well as showing kindness to others and helping sinners, healing sicknesses, etc. and He paid the ultimate price for our sins so that we can have Salvation. I would have to do a lot more research on this matter to have a concrete answer. |
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Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:17 pm
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Aquatic_blue Naruverse Aquatic_blue Naruverse Rednal Well, he did say that those without sin should cast the first stones. I think part of the idea would be that in the Old Testament, people deserved (and generally got) death for their sins and crimes. People were NOT saved any longer than temporarily (offerings, etc.). Come Jesus, it's time for things to be forgiven, for a new covenant to be made among the people. Nowadays, the common idea seems to be that God will hold each of us accountable for our sins, and we don't really need to bother with things like stoning specifically because of that. Of course, that brings up the question of just how many things in the Old Testament we should be basing our modern rules and laws around, but that's another subject... They brought out the adulteress but not the man she committed the act with. Moses said to bring both man and woman. Jesus said to woman to not sin again. So did he forbid stoning or just that act because it wasn't properly prepared? I believe what Jesus was trying to do here was to show grace and mercy upon this woman. Perhaps this woman even changed her ways and believed in Jesus from then on, but we don't know how her life was after that incident and if she had changed her ways or not. However, if we put ourselves in this woman's place and we were about to be stoned to death and a man shows up and stops the stoning from taking place - how would we view this man (Jesus)? Would we feel touched that He stood up for us and saved us from the death penalty? Would we have listened to what He said because He saved our life? Yes, but the topic isn't about what happened to the girl afterwards, the topic is should Christians stone people. The Law of Moses would've been broken because both the male and female had to be stoned, but only the female was there. Scholars say that the one who was with the adulteress tried to stone her and was one of the Pharisees. Also, Jesus was writing the names of the people who were with her that was there. But there's not any evidence of that. Now, back on topic. Did Jesus approve of stonings that are properly prepared? Or did he end it in that event? Considering only the female was there and it wouldn't have been "proper" to stone her and not the male as well - it's possible Jesus could have stopped it there because it wouldn't have been just. It would have been incomplete to stone one person and not the other since in accordance to the Law both would have been stoned. However, I do believe that God approved of stonings if done in accordance with the Law because it probably preserved the Jewish nation and probably prevented crimes that were against God from happening. Stoning was their form of capital punishment. I can't say for sure that God approves of it in our society or not. I'm not sure if this is a thing that stopped in society because people found it to be inhumane, wrong, etc. or if it stopped because of the grace period that Jesus brought when He came to earth. When Jesus showed up, it was about telling others the good news as well as showing kindness to others and helping sinners, healing sicknesses, etc. and He paid the ultimate price for our sins so that we can have Salvation. I would have to do a lot more research on this matter to have a concrete answer.
Good point. |
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Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:24 am
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Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:37 pm
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Reformed_Into_His_Image We have commands from the Old Testament to stone people that disobey their parents and so forth. However, it was written only to the children of Israel. Jesus fulfilled that law (Matthew 5). God's heart still stayed the same. He hates disobedient children. But on this side of the cross, He gave us time so we could repent.
Two things:
(1) "Israel" is the family we Gentiles are becoming a part of (Isaiah 14:1; Ezekiel 47:22; Ephesians 2:12; Romans 11:11-32). Whatever applies to them, applies to us (Leviticus 24:22). Aside from God's / the prophet's / the apostle's explicit statements, it's also common sense: same God, same instructions. That said, we should all be under the New Covenant: both Jew and Gentile. But the New Covenant doesn't change God's sense of right or wrong; the new covenant places it on our hearts (Ezekiel 36:25-27; Jeremiah 31:33).
(2) Jesus endured the curse; he didn't do away with any law/commandment—a point which he emphasized very clearly in Matthew 5:17-20. He fulfilled the law in the same way you fulfill a promise: by keeping it. The only indication of the law being done away with is found in verse 18 which gives the law a specific "lifespan": the whole law stays in tact until heaven and earth passes away (hasn't happened yet) and the law serves all of its purpose and all prophecy is fulfilled (hasn't happened yet).
The law still has a purpose during the millenial reign (which we're not in yet; during the millenial reign we will be judging alongside Christ, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:2-3, judging the world and the angels, and comparing it to Revelation 20:4-6), and after the millenial reign, the law still has a purpose on what's commonly known as "judgment day" (the Great White Throne Judgment as described in Revelation 20:11-15). Again, Matthew 5:18 clearly states that nothing of the law will disappear until the heavens and earth pass, and all things be fulfilled. The way you're looking at it, if the law was done away with, it would mean no one would need to convert because there would be no law condemning people to everlasting fire; thus, no reason for them to accept Jesus.
But the real topic at hand is punishing earthly matters, not eternal punishment, and I for one do not think that his sense of right and wrong for earthly matters has changed (we're still on this earth, still fighting over the same things: person A committed adultery with person B; person X murdered person Z; Person Q is a disobedient, gluttonous drunkard and profligate, thus a threat to his family's survival [that's the law about stoning children], etc... they all deserve the highest punishment in God's eyes, when prosecuted fairly and they've been given chances to repent; it's a balance of justice and mercy). IMO, society is so dysfunctional precisely because Gentile societies don't reprimand the same things as God. If God was totally against earthly judgment, he would tell us to get rid of all government, police, detention centers, jails, life sentences, and death penalties. Law still serves a purpose: in the present, in the millenial age, and on judgment day (after the heavens and earth have passed away); I would rather have God's law instead of gentile law.
Notice how the priesthood with the eternal sacrifice is what's atoning right now and it doesn't violate Old Testament Law. The earthly tabernacle was made in the same image as the Heavenly Tabernacle (Hebrews 8:5). So the same things practiced in the earthly tabernacle under the Old Testament is what Jesus did in the Heavenly Tabernacle with his own blood.
Quote: Hebrews 8:5 (NIV) 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] Footnotes: a. Hebrews 8:5 Exodus 25:40
Jesus, in a sense, is also the Levitical City of Refuge: if you're in him, wrath won't touch you even if you're guilty. It's an act of mercy originating from the Old Testament system. But also, he atoned for our sins according to the very law of the Old Testament.
His death did not do away with the justice system. Reflect on this: why would God get rid of His own justice system, but leave the Gentile justice system(s) in place...? His justice system is superior to theirs and is in line with his character; it's the one that adheres to the truth. His Justice system is the one everyone will be judged by, even on judgment day (which, FYI, takes place after the heavens and earth pass away, Revelation 20:11-15, so his law is still there). The justice system given to the Children of Israel should be ours if we're of God and actually care about justice/being fair. Let's not forget, He is a God of righteousness and justice. Yes, he's merciful at times, but when he acts (i.e. coming as Jesus to atone / totally cleanse us of sin) it won't be to rid us of a working justice system to deal with criminals on a day-to-day basis. Stoning/capital punishment is a part of that. Though, honestly, if the government is corrupt, even if we claim to be following his Old Testament Law, it is done for naught: justice isn't being done anyway if our officials are corrupt and it's all a disgust to our Heavenly Father. The problem isn't Old Testament laws (which are 100% just, allow for mercy, and are morally correct); the problematic component to this are the corrupt people, not the laws themselves. They twist it to be unmerciful.
I think God has abandoned the nations to their own counsel, to be destroyed by their own ways/sense of what's right; he has been known to do this in the past:
Quote: Psalm 81:12 (NIV) 12 So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices.
Quote: Ezekiel 20:24-25 (NIV) 24 because they had not obeyed my laws but had rejected my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths, and their eyes lusted after their parents’ idols. 25 So I gave them other statutes that were not good and laws through which they could not live;
The Old Testament Law is God's very own thoughts of what is righteous or unjust. That's not something that passes away (Matthew 24:35). I really want him to return already and start his millenial reign. Only when a truly upright person is reigning will there be justice in the land. As it is now, murderers can go free while an innocent person gets life in prison, because it's only based on what can be proven in court, not the actual truth. God sees the heart. In his system, he's the judge, there are no lawyers trying to win an argument in spite of the truth, he declares a man/woman guilty or blameless because he sees the heart and everything they ever did. side note: this certainly gives me something to think about with respect to how the saints will be judging alongside him during the 1000 years, especially since the Great White Throne judgment is after that period of time. Hmmm....
tl;dr - god's justice system is superior; if we're not under it, then it's because he's abandoning us to our doom, following our own sense of justice (of what's right or wrong), thus the dysfunctional society we're in. It's not a good thing to abandon his law. His sense of right or wrong is not limited to a covenant. |
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Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:24 pm
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I'll put some points to think of:
-Jesus did say that those without sin should cast the first stones to the woman. In this case, He put emphasize that we should not judge other because the same measurements will be judged against us. Everyone is a sinner to start with (Rom 3:23).
-As most of everyone mentioned as well, that in New Testament, Jesus has sacrificed himself for us and spread the law of love (Matt 12:30-31).
-In accordance with love, God is also just. Thus the law still exist and everyone should be responsible for what they do.
2 Thessalonians 1:6 "God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you."
My conclusion:
I disagree with stoning in modern life (capital punishment) because we are no longer living in an era of 'eyes for eyes' or 'continuous burnt offering to cover sin' thanks to Jesus.
Indeed that sin must be punished, but it is His' only because:
-He is the one who gives life and it is Him that take away. Vengeance belong to Him
Romans 12:19- (KJV)"Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
-We shouldn't judge others
Luke 6:37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven"
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