{S} Reexamining LL Customs

[Regal Renegade]

For those of us who are simply despised by RNG

** A few people have voted against this idea, but if you do vote that you disagree please explain why. It would be helpful to see where the breakdown point is.

I realize this has been discussed before, but I don’t think there was ever actually any definitive answer aside from a response dictating that the jury was still out. I certainly don’t want to cause anyone’s blood to boil or continuously beat a dead horse, but I do believe this topic deserves one more glance.

There is a lot of talk concerning the difficulties that would ensue if this idea were ever to be implemented, but with all of the brains in this shop I am certain we could come up with something. Here I will give my own two cents addressing some of the problems facing this idea. I am not claiming to have all of the answers and I am certain that my logic will likely be flawed in some instances, and that is why I need your help.

* Customs are so infrequent that it wouldn’t be worth it.
--> Customs may be infrequent, but so are breedings and we have not taken out the LL option for those have we? Even though customs may be infrequent it does not simply dissolve the fact that people have been trying for a while. This shop has been open for quite a few years now; I don't think that a shortage of customs would mean a lack of attempts.

* The list would be so small that it would just be stupid.
Isn't that the point though? To make a smaller list so that those who haven't had the best of luck with RNG or other contests can have a fighting chance? Besides, I am certain there are more people in this shop who have quite a few attempts under their belts than we know of.

* Keeping track would be hard and people could go in and edit their posts.
--> To the first I say, no it isn't. If I can go clear back to 2009 and compile my list up to present day, so can you. You do it for breedings don't you? As for the changing of posts concern, I don't really understand. The lists were posted by the colorists on the front page stating what category you were in. You can't go in and change those posts to say that you have been trying in a different category. I suppose I am just unclear on what that concern is about. Also, if you swap your quest form from Bobby to Sue I don't really see how that would help you all that much...

* How would LL be determined?
--> This is one where many ideas coming into play would be good. I personally believe that basing it on whether or not you have been trying for the same SOQUILI for however many years or whatever would be silly. Take myself as an example, five years' worth of attempts. Not all of them are for the same SOQUILI. But why should that matter? Five years is five years, no? I know what you are thinking; we shouldn't base it on years. I couldn't agree more! I believe it should be based on the number of attempts. Say 20 just to match breedings. Now I had a suggestion that we break it down to number of attempts in the same CATEGORY which seems viable, but again, my logic may be flawed. After receiving this suggestion I organized my 'LL' list accordingly:

XBlind-DarknessX

-Custom Attempts-

Won first and only custom HERE

1. Imp Customs 2009 -- Lafiel -- Rare
2. Merangue Customs 2009 -- Lafiel -- Rare
3. Vance Customs 2010 -- Eywa -- Super Rare
4. Sabin Customs 2010 -- ??? -- Super Rare
5. Zoo Customs 2010 -- Eywa -- Super Rare
6. Mobbu Customs 2010 -- Lafiel -- Super Rare
7. Vance Customs 2010 -- Lafiel -- Super Rare
8. Felmino Customs 2010 -- Lafiel-- Super Rare
9. Ameh Customs 2010 -- Lafiel -- Super Rare
10. Mindsend Customs 2010 -- Lafiel -- Super Rare
11. Mobbu Customs 2010 -- Lafiel -- Super Rare
12. Felmino Customs 2010 -- Lafiel -- Big List Event
13. Samu Customs 2010 -- Lafiel -- Edited
14. Toa Customs 2010 -- Lafiel -- Edited
15. Sabin Customs 2010 -- Lafiel -- Super Rare
16. Fel Customs 2010 -- Lafiel -- Edited
17. Mind Customs 2010 -- Lafiel -- Super Rare
18. Sabin Customs 2011 -- Lafiel -- Super Rare
19. Mind Customs 2011 -- Lafiel -- Super Rare
20. Samu Customs 2011 -- Lafiel -- Super Rare
21. Neza Customs 2011 -- Lafiel -- Super Rare
22. Juls Customs 2011 -- Lafiel -- Super Rare
23. Mind Customs 2011 -- Lafiel -- Big List Event
24. Riri Customs 2011 -- Lafiel -- Super Rare
25. Neza Customs 2011 -- Lafiel -- Super Rare
26. Riri Customs 2012 -- Lafiel -- Super Rare
27. Juls Customs 2012 -- Lafiel & Adriel -- Super Rare
28. Mobbu Customs 2012 -- Lafiel & Adriel -- Super Rare
29. Neza Customs 2012 -- Lafiel & Adriel -- Super Rare
30. Mindsend Customs 2012 -- Lafiel & Adriel -- Super Rare
31. Mind Customs 2012 -- Lafiel & Adriel -- Super Rare
32. Neza Customs 2013 -- Lafiel & Adriel -- Super Rare
33. Mindsend Customs 2013 -- Thanatos -- Super Rare
34. Mind Customs 2013 -- Caoilinn -- Super Rare
35. DD Customs 2013 -- Deaglan -- Super Rare
36. Mind Bribe 2013 -- Bribe Slots
37. DD Bribe 2013 -- Bribe Slots

28 out of 37 are true Super Rare Slots

22 of the 28 are for the same custom (Twin addition as well)

As you see, I could qualify for all three criteria. 1.) Number of overall attempts. 2.) Number of attempts for the same SOQUILI. 3.) Number of attempts in the same CATEGORY.

I am not saying that you should meet all three criteria, I am just pointing out that it is possible.

* Why couldn't we just go off of flat out number of overall tries?
--> I suppose you could, but here is where others have seen an issue with that method. If you are entering Common slots it will be a lot harder for you to win than, say, if you were trying for Super Rare slots. That is just a fact. So if you suddenly were to switch into Common from Super Rare for whatever reason, it stands to reason that your chances of winning would definitely decrease just based on the size of that category alone. You following me? Again, I am not saying this is the final word in the idea, just an issue brought to my attention that needed addressing.

* To break it into just CATEGORY over number of overall attempts would be penalizing people.
--> Let me remind you that I have 37 tries under my belt, and believe me, it killed me to have to whittle away at that list to get it all in the same category. I lost a lot of attempts that way. This suggestion was brought to me by someone who felt LL customs were dumb, and I was trying to see their point of view and perhaps look at the scope of the problem to see if we could reach a happy medium. I do not in any way want to penalize people, I would love to use all of my attempts as well. I am just trying to bring the shop to some sort of agreement. ^^

* It would be a burden to our already busy colorists.
--> I am going to say that it really doesn't have to be. I honestly was a bit nervous about calling this LL customs at all because of the sensitivity of the subject. I don't really care if it is actually LL customs, or a special event held once every one to two years called "RNG Retarded" or something. I just believe that there should be some way to help people out. It could be a special event held similar to when colorists hold an all MINI customs, or an all UNEDITED customs. Or they could add it on to one of their customs slots if they feel like they would be up to doing another slot. I have seen enough colorists CC a few extra couples in breedings to know that sometimes they feel that they are capable of taking on a little extra. (Not trying to assume what the colorists do or don't like, just pointing out an observation.)

* Everyone will hit LL at the same exact time.
--> This is possibly another legit concern, but then I must ask, how is it that LL breedings seem to work then? I know the list has gotten longer but it still gives those people a little more of a chance than they had before. If a colorist were to hold an event for LL customs like they do for LL breedings it is possible that they could do 3-4 LL customs. Those people would then be off of the list until they hit 20 attempts again. I may not have a great grasp on how the system functions but, if it works for breedings I don't see how it wouldn't work for customs.

* I switch my customs around so I may not qualify for a LL slot even though I have been trying for a long time.
--> I hear ya, and I totally understand how this would be a concern. But perhaps as long as you keep rotating soquili around from the same category it would still be fine? Example: I can't try for this rare this time because of some restriction, but maybe I can substitue him/her with another rare. Make sense? Like on my list, I rotated concepts a few times due to various restrictions, but they remained in the same category for the most part.

I would like to reiterate here that these are simply thoughts I have had, I do not pretend to know all of the inner workings of this shop. I have just heard enough people say how disheartening it is to constantly lose. And yes, I am one of you. This may be a tad personal for me as you can tell by looking at my attempts log, but I also know I am not the only one. As stated before, I know that this idea may have plenty of problems, but I do believe it would be worth it.

I appreciate input from all of you but ask that civility be maintained and no one be crucified for their ideas. This is a forum to express opinions, just do it in a way that no one is hurt or made to feel dismissed. Thank you all!! heart  

[Regal Renegade]

Please forgive any spelling mistakes or outlandishly dumb ideas, I am rather tired but I felt that this was very important. Thank you for your time!  

[Baby Pandah]

I agree with you 100%. I agree with your statement about having events for those who have been questing for aaages, or maybe even those who are custom-newbies (those who haven't ever gotten a slot).

I just think that four years, or even one year is a really bleak outlook for those of us trying for our dreams. It's not to say that new questers deserve their customs any less, but dedication to a quest or concept for years and years is something really serious.

I know that colorists try all they can to give people chances, but maybe they don't always know how long people have been questing/trying for slots? Maybe it would just be helpful in general for them to have a list. Sort of like the MCCL except for customs?  

[stella cinere]

IDK this could be a terrible idea but I would love to see instead of a bribe month (which I would rather see 15 days vs. a whole month but there are other reasons with this)

Custom month with the similar idea with a few exceptions. One being you can only win once due to custom cool down. Two instead of colorist ccing all the ones they want they would have to roll one, finish it, then cc one, finish it, roll one finish it and that be the pattern. OR if they to do 10 for the month then they have to roll five and then can cc five, something along those lines. This way there is always a chance of a person getting the custom they want and not worry about if its exactly what the colorist wanted to do, and then changing it to fit their "please pick me." It might even be nice for members if they want to post five forms and if they are rolled the colorist can pick one of the five that they feel comfortable with, or if the member has one they really want they just post that one. If they are multiple colorists, then a pref list maybe?

I think a lot of it is just people want their customs made, and I feel like giving a full bribe month with just CC isn't the best solution for it. As Blind pointed out there are plenty of people who do enter and enter bribes that want their particular soquili and they don't get CC'd and they do get discouraged a lot and it sucks. I also know colorist like bribes because they can pick the designs they like so maybe half roll and half cc would be a better solution.  

[ProphetOfProfit]

Firstly wow blind! This is one of the most well written suggestion threads I've ever seen.
It covers everything.

Secondly I agree with you 100%.  

[ProphetOfProfit]

hanging gallow

Custom month with the similar idea with a few exceptions. One being you can only win once due to custom cool down. Two instead of colorist ccing all the ones they want they would have to roll one, finish it, then cc one, finish it, roll one finish it and that be the pattern. OR if they to do 10 for the month then they have to roll five and then can cc five, something along those lines. This way there is always a chance of a person getting the custom they want and not worry about if its exactly what the colorist wanted to do, and then changing it to fit their "please pick me." It might even be nice for members if they want to post five forms and if they are rolled the colorist can pick one of the five that they feel comfortable with, or if the member has one they really want they just post that one. If they are multiple colorists, then a pref list maybe?

I think a lot of it is just people want their customs made, and I feel like giving a full bribe month with just CC isn't the best solution for it. As Blind pointed out there are plenty of people who do enter and enter bribes that want their particular soquili and they don't get CC'd and they do get discouraged a lot and it sucks. I also know colorist like bribes because they can pick the designs they like so maybe half roll and half cc would be a better solution.

This is realt great too. Like really great.
I support this 100%  

[Kamiki]

My personal two-cents

Regarding LL customs - I'm 100% for the idea. Personally I think it should be straight-up attempts at getting a custom, regardless of what slot or which concept. A lot of people bounce concepts around depending on the colorists strengths. Also - what if you were going for a cosplay for 4 years and then someone else gets it.... So yeah, I think just straight-up attempt at customs should count.

Regarding Customs Month: I would LOVE to bring back customs month. LOVE IT. As long as there are some rules in place keep the favoritism ******** from happening like last time. Actually, since they have the BRIBE custom months now like DD just then which are all rightly CC... a store-wide customs MONTH should be 100% rolled. Now, you can have 10 concepts in your post and the colorist gets to chose between those maybe. And maybe for every 5 or 10 customs a colorist does, they can pick a CC or something.

Also, there should be a limit on how may customs a person should get. Like one or two.

Anyway yes... /twocents

 

[JetAlmeara]

Kamiki

My personal two-cents

Regarding LL customs - I'm 100% for the idea. Personally I think it should be straight-up attempts at getting a custom, regardless of what slot or which concept. A lot of people bounce concepts around depending on the colorists strengths. Also - what if you were going for a cosplay for 4 years and then someone else gets it.... So yeah, I think just straight-up attempt at customs should count.

Regarding Customs Month: I would LOVE to bring back customs month. LOVE IT. As long as there are some rules in place keep the favoritism ******** from happening like last time. Actually, since they have the BRIBE custom months now like DD just then which are all rightly CC... a store-wide customs MONTH should be 100% rolled. Now, you can have 10 concepts in your post and the colorist gets to chose between those maybe. And maybe for every 5 or 10 customs a colorist does, they can pick a CC or something.

Also, there should be a limit on how may customs a person should get. Like one or two.

Anyway yes... /twocents

^ this

However I'd also be fine with a half and half Rolled/CC for a customs month. CC one..Roll one Etc. If there were rules regarding how many a person could win then Favoritism and such things wouldn't play much into it anyways, No one would end up with 5 or 6 ponies because they were so and so's friends because the rules wouldn't allow it - not that I think any Soq colorists would do something like that.

Considering the amount of work the colorists would have to do for this maybe there should be a 'Colorist credit bonus' or something during custom month. Do X amount of ponies and get X bonus..or simply just a small bump in the amount of credits they would normally get for doing a custom of that level.

Example..if you got 100 credits for doing an unedit custom normally..maybe during customs month you got 150. (totally example numbers because I actually have no idea what they get for what so obviously that would have to be worked out on their side..I just think it would be a nice incentive for the colorists and a bonus for the extra work and headaches that month would give them.)

Or the shop normally gives them ponies for events. I guess they could just do that too =-)  

[Sabin Duvert]

If the LL custom ideas are done, I really think that it should be done just as overall attempts, not attempts at a particular concept or even sort of slot. If you do it by type of slot, there's nothing saying you couldn't have been swapping concepts around, either. And even if some slots have a statistically higher percentage chance of being rolled, if you STILL Haven't won in ANY slot after 20 tries, so what? Obviously playing the numbers hasn't worked for you.

If you're saying that people going after common/uncommon slots have to have the understanding that theyre in the most competitive category, then would you penalize those people with needing more than 20 tries? Or require less attempts if you're going for a mini? I wouldn't think so...


Besides, on TOP of that, some categoires have even changed since soquili started offering customs. I think some once-rare breeds have been brought down to uncommon, and I know there was a reformatting of minis being a separate category and not "common".


I don't think you should penalize people who are just as unlucky as people trying for the same custom year after year becuase they have more than one idea and want to try to play to the strengths and subjects that the colorists enjoy.

** Custom month suggestion stuff **

I think for colorists that pay credits to have a bribe month, the format works.

However, if there was a store-wide customs month, I like HG's and Kamiki's ideas of letting it be at least 50/50 rolled/CC'd if not 1 CC for every 5. I also like everyone getting a few ideas (5-10 maybe) to post in their post to give colorists a bit of choice ((or someone can just opt to post one idea they might REALLY want to guarentee if they're picked they'l get it)), and limit the winnings to one soquili per person, invoking the cool-down.

I think in a customs month like this, it should also stick to customizable-allowed soquili, MAYBE with the exception of allowing some hyper-hybrids ((I know the other customs month that happened once upon a time, it was the first time hybrids of any kind were allowed to be customed outside of slots that allowed mutations)).  

[Laroawan]

I agree with Kamiki and Sabin that it should be overall attempts not separated in any way. I also don't think it would be fair to penalize people who switch concepts because many people, myself included, have several ideas and like to offer certain ones based on which colorist is doing slots.. on top of that some colorists only offer certain slots or levels of editing so I would not for example be entering my heavy edited custom in an unedited only slot.

I am in the same boat as Blind. I am a custom newbie. Have been attempting custom slots and bribes going on 5 years without a win rng or cc. I have a list of my ll attempts not including bribes atm and it is just under 40. With bribes and the custom month attempt included it would probably be closer to 45.

I would love to see some LL slots and newbie slots for those of us with no luck, it really is discouraging the way it is now but I love Soquili and will keep on trying.  

[Regal Renegade]

Quote:

--> “Personally I think it should be straight-up attempts at getting a custom, regardless of what slot or which concept. A lot of people bounce concepts around depending on the colorists strengths. Also - what if you were going for a cosplay for 4 years and then someone else gets it.... So yeah, I think just straight-up attempt at customs should count.”

--> “If the LL custom ideas are done, I really think that it should be done just as overall attempts, not attempts at a particular concept or even sort of slot. If you do it by type of slot, there's nothing saying you couldn't have been swapping concepts around, either. And even if some slots have a statistically higher percentage chance of being rolled, if you STILL Haven't won in ANY slot after 20 tries, so what? Obviously playing the numbers hasn't worked for you.

If you're saying that people going after common/uncommon slots have to have the understanding that theyre in the most competitive category, then would you penalize those people with needing more than 20 tries? Or require less attempts if you're going for a mini? I wouldn't think so...


Besides, on TOP of that, some categoires have even changed since soquili started offering customs. I think some once-rare breeds have been brought down to uncommon, and I know there was a reformatting of minis being a separate category and not "common".


I don't think you should penalize people who are just as unlucky as people trying for the same custom year after year becuase they have more than one idea and want to try to play to the strengths and subjects that the colorists enjoy.”

--> “I agree with Kamiki and Sabin that it should be overall attempts not separated in any way. I also don't think it would be fair to penalize people who switch concepts because many people, myself included, have several ideas and like to offer certain ones based on which colorist is doing slots.. on top of that some colorists only offer certain slots or levels of editing so I would not for example be entering my heavy edited custom in an unedited only slot.”

I am in complete agreement with all three of you here. I have added this to the main post. This was a suggestion brought up to me by someone who believed that LL customs were dumb and shouldn't be done. As such I wanted to know what concerned them about it and what would make them change their mind. Their suggestion is what I put above and I was simply attempting to state that I see all sides of the problem. ^^

I have 37 attempts and would love to use them all in order to qualify for LL. It was not fun for me to begin subtracting attempts, and I did feel like I was losing a bit of my effort. I am simply trying to address the issues that others have had with this idea and see if I can change their answer from no to yes.

As I said above though, I completely agree with the idea that it should be based on number of attempts alone. Just that, not everyone here sees it the same way.  

[Regal Renegade]

AllSummedUpNJazz

Firstly wow blind! This is one of the most well written suggestion threads I've ever seen.
It covers everything.

Secondly I agree with you 100%.

I really appreciate the compliment Summed! And thank you so much for your input!!  

[Regal Renegade]

Okay, so for this customs month could there perhaps be a header and an "is this LL" category on the form so that the colorists can see the attempts a person has made? That way it may just give them a little leg up as far as the CC goes?

I have seen people say they have been trying for a long time and not be selected because simply stating "I have been trying for five years" is hard to track. Perhaps more stock would be put into the statement if they could show how hard they have worked toward customs on their forms?

Gosh I hope I am making some lick of sense. my brain is all over the place and this may be like a: "No duh Blind..." moment. XD  

[Kamiki]

XBlind-DarknessX

Okay, so for this customs month could there perhaps be a header and an "is this LL" category on the form so that the colorists can see the attempts a person has made? That way it may just give them a little leg up as far as the CC goes?

I have seen people say they have been trying for a long time and not be selected because simply stating "I have been trying for five years" is hard to track. Perhaps more stock would be put into the statement if they could show how hard they have worked toward customs on their forms?

Gosh I hope I am making some lick of sense. my brain is all over the place and this may be like a: "No duh Blind..." moment. XD

I think this is fair. Also, maybe there could be a LL List and a Full List - so when the colorists roll they can choose to roll from the Full List or the LL list - just in case colorist want to give them a little extra love?  

[Andranis]

I like this idea overall, and especially breaking it down into categories. For how it would work, I do have an idea. If a person can link to proof they're low luck in a specific category(Say 40 tries in Super Rare), then they get an extra ticket in the raffle. It increases their chance at winning the custom, and after the initial 40, every 10 attempts gets them another extra ticket. Of course, even if the low luck number is 20 like breedings, an extra ticket could still be given for every 10 more attempts failed. So... You have 37 failed attempts, and pretending they're all Super Rare, 37 attempts would place you at three tickets for the next customs raffle. If that makes sense?

As for the CC customs, I remember the thread discussing that one, and I bring back a suggestion I made that, while not popular, is still a rather valid worry - Maybe cosplays of official media(IE, comics, games, movies, etc.) should be not permitted, to keep things fair. That was a worry brought up in the last "CC customs" thread, of a colorist picking a friend over someone else for the same cosplay custom. As an example, Person A and Person B both want a cosplay of Twilight Sparkle. Person A is either a newbie, semi-newbie, or a more passive Soquili member, while Person B is a friend/relative of Colorist 1. Because of either friendship or relation, Colorist 1 may pick Person B over Person A to get the cosplay of Twilight Sparkle. That's the other big worry about favoritism in CC customs.