Why did God create us if he knew we would sin?

[Garland-Green]

This is a great question that drives at a very important truth. This truth is that God created us for a reason. God had a purpose behind creating human beings, even though he knew that we would break His law and surrender our lives to sin. This is something that each and every one of us has done. We have sold ourselves to sin and are, without the work of Jesus Christ, enslaved to it.

Firstly, let me debunk a common misunderstanding regarding the reason why God created us. Often you will hear that God created people because he was lonely. A common false teaching is that God created us because he needed something or someone to have a relationship with. But this most definitely cannot be true. How could God be lonely? If God is infinite and perfect what would cause him to have feelings of loneliness. In addition we know that God is three persons in one. We call this the trinity. This means that God has fellowship in Himself. In the Gospels you will frequently see Jesus praying to the Father (John 17). This is a picture of the God-head (Father-Son-Holy Spirit) relating with itself. At Jesus’ baptism the Holy Spirit descended like a dove and the Father opened up the heavens and spoke to Jesus (Matthew 3:13-17).

So why did God create us? Especially if he knew that we would sin? I believe the answer is the same as the answer to the question, “Why does God do anything”?

Whatever God does he does to glorify Himself. God does all things so that He receives fame, glory, praise and honor.

Here’s a list of things God has done so that He receives glory (This list is adapted from Matt Chandler’s Explicit Gospel and is not all-inclusive)

God saves men for his own name’s sake (Ps. 106:8.)
Pharaoh’s heart was hardened for the glory of God (Exodus 14:4, 18.)
Israel became great and powerful among the nations because God was “making for Himself a name” (2 Samuel 7:23)
God decided not to destroy Israel when it deserved to be destroyed because he did not want his name to be blasphemed among the nations (Isaiah 48:9-11)
God decided to destroy the Israelites because they would not give glory to Him (Malachi 2:2)
Jesus’ life and ministry was about the glory of God (John 7:18; 17:4)
This list is nowhere near being complete. There are hundreds of passages where God does something so that He would be glorified.

So the answer to the question, “Why would God create us?” is this: God created us so that through us He would be glorified. That is why Paul says that “Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.” The purpose of our lives is to glorify God. We are being used for God’s glory.

But this only answers part of the question. It tells us why God created us. But why would God create us when he knew that we would choose not to glorify Him and to break His law?

I believe the answer is this: the most God-glorifying thing that could every happen is for God Himself to die for us. And why is this glorifying? Because by this death we are saved. And when we have been saved and think about what God had to do to save us, we praise Him. We think, “I could have never saved myself. And I didn’t deserve to be saved. But God saved me anyway!” The one event that would bring about the deepest praise and greatest amount of honor for God was for Him to die on a cross.

This is why Paul says: “In him (Jesus) we have obtained and inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him (the Father) who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory.” (Ephesians 1:11-12)

So, whether you are eating, drinking, shooting hoops, reading your Bible, working, studying, hanging out with friends or doing anything else, do it for the glory of God.

Source:
http://aefcsolidrock.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/why-did-god-create-us-if-he-knew-we-would-sin/  

[Rednal]

The skeptical view that some might respond with:

"Then God is fundamentally selfish and wouldn't do something simply because it's right, but because it would get attention, and will happily destroy anything that's not good enough for them. Like a little child demanding attention from their parents."

There's also the interesting little detail of the angels... y'know, the ones who do constantly praise God? If God seeks to glorify Himself, then by definition, God must either be satisfied or unsatisfied with the level of praise happening. One might wonder why we'd have a whole host of angels praising God AND have all this stuff happening on Earth. If neither is sufficient praise for God alone, but both are together, then there is a level where an infinite God is satisfied with a finite amount of glory. If, together, they're still not enough to satisfy Him... then why bother doing them at all when He could do something that would satisfy Him?

I suppose the competing view would be that God deserves glory and it should be given to Him, but that it's not the primary reason why He does things... considering that the "do it for glory" theory makes dying on the Cross into a selfish act of the worst possible magnitude, I'm not sure I could agree with it.  

[Garland-Green]

Rednal

The skeptical view that some might respond with:

"Then God is fundamentally selfish and wouldn't do something simply because it's right, but because it would get attention, and will happily destroy anything that's not good enough for them. Like a little child demanding attention from their parents."

There's also the interesting little detail of the angels... y'know, the ones who do constantly praise God? If God seeks to glorify Himself, then by definition, God must either be satisfied or unsatisfied with the level of praise happening. One might wonder why we'd have a whole host of angels praising God AND have all this stuff happening on Earth. If neither is sufficient praise for God alone, but both are together, then there is a level where an infinite God is satisfied with a finite amount of glory. If, together, they're still not enough to satisfy Him... then why bother doing them at all when He could do something that would satisfy Him?

I suppose the competing view would be that God deserves glory and it should be given to Him, but that it's not the primary reason why He does things... considering that the "do it for glory" theory makes dying on the Cross into a selfish act of the worst possible magnitude, I'm not sure I could agree with it.

God says he made us for his glory, he does not mean he made us so that he could become more glorious in himself. Instead what Isaiah 43:7 means is that he created us to display his glory, that is, that his glory might be known and praised. This is the goal of God.

This becomes clearer as we page through Isaiah. Isaiah 43:20–21 says, "I give water in the wilderness, rivers in the desert to give drink to my chosen people, the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise." Isaiah 44:23 says, "Sing, O heavens for the Lord has done it; shout, O depths of the earth; break forth into singing, O mountains, O forest and every tree in it! For the Lord has redeemed Jacob and will be glorified in Israel." In response to her redemption Israel will join the skies and valleys and mountains and forests in singing praise to the Lord. The Lord's glory will be known and praised and displayed to the nations.

But Isaiah 48:9–11 makes even clearer what it means for God to seek his own glory in creating and redeeming his people:

For My name's sake I defer my anger,
for the sake of My praise I restrain it for you,
that I may not cut you off.
Behold, I have refined you but not like silver;
I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.
For My own sake, for My own sake I do it,
for how should My name be profaned?
My glory I will not give to another.


Even though this text deals with God's Old Testament people Israel, we have seen that his motives do not change from era to era and so we can apply at least that aspect of this text to the people of God in our day—those who follow Christ as Savior and Lord.. Our salvation is for God's sake. What can we do to deserve it? Is there any other reason available than God character?

"Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go." Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me!" (John 21:18-19)

Emphasis mine

God demands worship because He and He alone is worthy of it. He is the only being that truly deserves worship. He requests that we acknowledge His greatness, His power and His glory. Revelation 4:11 tells us, “You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created.” God created us, and He is a God who will not be usurped. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me” (Exodus 20:3-5). We must understand that God’s jealousy is not the sinful envy that we experience, born out of pride. It is a holy and righteous jealousy that cannot allow the glory due only to Him to be given to another.  

[Rednal]

I don't think there's any amount of glory that could morally excuse causing massive pain, suffering, and general unpleasantness simply for the sake of showing it off. yum_tea If we assume that God is good, then God can have His actions be examined in a moral context, because that's what morality is all about. You can't simultaneously be good and be above having your actions judged as good or evil, after all. That would make no sense at all. However, the assumption that "God = Good" also suggests to us that all of His actions should be morally justifiable... and easily so, at that, once we figure out the right way to look at the situation.

Causing others to suffer and die is not, generally speaking, a very moral thing to do. Even if we remove all human actions out of the equation (because we are responsible for what we do), the Bible reports numerous times where God rather directly intervened in human affairs and killed off entire groups of people. We can examine His actions there, if nowhere else.

Of course, if God isn't good, and does want to show off His glory more than anything else, then He'd be acting like a selfish, self-centered little child. Yeah, sure, maybe he did go to the Cross... but the Bible also tells us that even one wrong action is enough to bar us from Heaven forever. So no matter how much good He's done, any wrong (and hurting others just to show off is wrong, no matter how great, incredible, popular, famous, or omnipotent you are) would make Him less than perfect... and under this theory, quite a lot less. I don't think I want to follow a God whose only interest lies in strutting around and demanding people either suck up to Him or perish horribly.

So... yeah. I still don't think I could agree with this particular theory.  

[real eyes realize]

He shows off when something else gets the glory, a something else which is misleading his creations to function in ways that he never intended and in ways that could be detrimental to them. He wants to be vindicated as righteous, true, and trustworthy in the eyes of man and the angels, in contrast to other spirits / idols which his creations are following—and by extension, YHWH wants his commands/right-rulings/laws/prophecies to prove righteous, trustworthy, and true unlike the other spirits. Not all of the angels trusted in YHWH (thus the rebellion). Humans didn't trust in YHWH and his ways from the get go (Adam and Eve).

Some verses to consider:

Quote:

Deuteronomy 15:4-6 (NIV)

4 However, there need be no poor people among you, for in the land the Lord your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you, 5 if only you fully obey the Lord your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today. 6 For the Lord your God will bless you as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over you.

Quote:

Acts 14:15 (NIV)

"Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them.

Quote:

1 Corinthians 12:2 (NIV)

You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.

Quote:

1 Corinthians 10:20 (NIV)

No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.

Because the nations (including his own) do not obey him, they will be riddled by poverty and suffering; the only way they wouldn't is if they all obeyed him. He's proving "your ways are worthless; stop trusting in your idols; stop relying on demons; now see why I gave this command? now see why what you worship as God is powerless against me (whether it's a mute idol that you fashioned by your own hands, or a demonic spirit, or one of the fallen sons of god/bene elohim)?". Unfortunately, instead of repenting they continue in their ways. Superstitions and traditions are hard to break, thus the reason he needs to show off in some spectacular way or allow suffering so they see it's because of their failure to adhere to a command/trust in him.

To use myself as an example, coming from a background of divination and all sorts of old wives tales, I was met with a lot of opposition from family when I started getting biblical. Thank God, I started to hate traditions in general from an early age, including those that were passing off as "biblical" but are actually unclean in the eyes of God. And of course those pagan ways were appealing because it involved mystery, incense, a fun ritual, something tangible you could "verify" with your eyes; the whole aesthetic that came along with divination pleased the eyes and the senses in general (especially when you go visit some psychics, and they whip up some nice smelling "potions" for you to bathe in for however-so-many days; I don't know what kind of herbs they were using but they made some heavily perfumed concoctions). You get to shop for cute trinkets. Once my family got into feng shui, that was an excuse to shop once again and re-design the whole house. But it didn't necessarily bring about any change in our lives nor did our treatment of each other ever change. The family kept lying to each other, manipulating, hating, gossiping, raging against each other, yet they still kept on believing those superstitions (wear a purple bracelet, invite intelligence; wear yellow underwear on new year's eve, bring in the fortune for the coming year [and if it's red, a new romance], lol; place a mirror on this side of the wall, invite positive energies, have a peaceful home). They never worked. Relying on material things / some external object to force peace and prosperity upon the household will yield nothing; it's the innerman that needs to be worked on. No ritual or talisman will do it for you. Only God's word / becoming born-again will.

Because of the futility of our way of thinking (and by "our" I mean humankind in general), YHWH set apart a nation, gave them his wisdom to share with the rest of the planet, and thus teach us "this is the true God; leave all that futility behind because look at how well we function and you don't; and look at how our God saves/protects us while yours don't"; but instead of carrying that plan out, they would constantly succumb to the ways of the other nations, not necessarily because it worked and brought the most blessing to all, but because the nations' ways pleased their senses. We want a king like the other nations (1 Samuel 8:4-22); we want to offer raisin cakes to the Queen of Heaven ( Jeremiah 44:17-19), even though there is no Queen of Heaven; that's an idol which YHWH hates (Jeremiah 7:18 ). We want to have orgies in our worship, not have self-controlled behavior. Just imagining Moloch worship, it was probably a spectacular sight to see this giant statue with burning hands. If it's entertaining and gratifies the desires of our flesh, we'll do it. In comparison, the controlled, orderly, risky worship of YHWH would not have been appealing at all. Touch the ark by mistake and you die (2 Samuel 6:6-7). Offer fire the wrong way and you die (Leviticus 10:1-2). Too many rules, not enough "freedom"; it's only after you're born-again that you really appreciate those commands as protective fences and come to appreciate a God of perfection that has little tolerance for deviation/lies.

That's been the struggle going on since Adam and Eve; learning to trust that YHWH's way is correct, perfect, and keeps us safe from harm if heeded. If anything else gets the glory, it would be a lie getting glorified, a lie which will lead us to commit some stupidity and invite death in, not just physical death but spiritual death/emptiness. He wants the glory so people can finally be in the truth, be complete, turn away from the useless and the detrimental. The fact that amongst the angels there were some who were led astray in the first place, meant he hadn't been glorified fully. Otherwise, every angel would've acknowledged and been fully convinced that there's no need to rebel against YHWH's way or listen to something contrary.  

[Garland-Green]

Rednal

I don't think there's any amount of glory that could morally excuse causing massive pain, suffering, and general unpleasantness simply for the sake of showing it off. yum_tea

God’s love for us is not mainly his making much of us, but his giving us the ability to enjoy making much of him forever. In other words, God’s love for us keeps God at the center. God’s love for us exalts his value and our satisfaction in it. If God’s love made us central and focused on our value, it would distract us from what is most precious, namely, himself. Love labors and suffers to enthrall us with what is infinitely and eternally satisfying: God. Therefore God’s love labors and suffers to break our bondage to the idol of self and focus our affections on the treasure of God.

To see the God-centeredness of God’s love demonstrated in Christ let’s look at John 11:1-6, the story of Lazarus’ sickness and death.

Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill. 3 So the sisters sent to him, saying, "Lord, he whom you love is ill." 4 But when Jesus heard it he said, "This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it." 5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So, [οὖν, therefore] when he heard that Lazarus was ill, he stayed two days longer in the place where he was.

Notice three amazing things:

Jesus chose to let Lazarus die. Verse 6: “When He heard he was sick, He then stayed two days longer in the place where he was.” There was no hurry. His intention was not to spare the family grief, but to raise Lazarus from the dead.
He was motivated by a passion for the glory of God displayed in his own glorious power. Verse 4: “This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it.”
Nevertheless both the decision to let Lazarus die and the motivation to magnify God were expressions of love for Mary and Martha and Lazarus. Verse 5: “Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus . . . so he stayed . . . where he was.”

Many people today – even Christians – would murmur at Jesus for callously letting Lazarus die and putting Him and Mary and Martha and others through the pain and misery of those days. And if they saw that this was motivated by Jesus desire to magnify the glory of God many would call this harsh or unloving. What this shows is how far above the glory of God most people value pain-free lives. For most people love is whatever puts human value and human well-being at the center. So Jesus’ behavior is unintelligible to them.

But let us not tell Jesus what love is. Let us not instruct him how he should love us and make us central. Let us learn from Jesus what love is and what our true well-being is. Love is doing whatever you need to do even to the point of dying on the cross to help people see and savor the glory of God for ever and ever. Love keeps God central. Because the soul was made for God.  

[Garland-Green]

Rednal

I don't think I want to follow a God whose only interest lies in strutting around and demanding people either suck up to Him or perish horribly.

So... yeah. I still don't think I could agree with this particular theory.

The reason you see it this way is because you are thinking of God in human terms. Squeezing him into the narrow confines of human actions and reasoning, demanding that he should act in a way that you can grasp. That his reasons for wanting to be glorified are the same as that of any human, that it is like a human throwing a tantrum if not taken notice of (though God is not a human, but Spirit), but we know that God does not have the same motives as us to do what he does. He is not selfish in asking what rightfully belong to him, not selfish in even demanding what rightfully belongs to him, and quite within his rights to punish those who refuse the quite reasonable demands, since all things are created for Him and through Him [Revelation 4:11].

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

When the Bible clearly says that his glory is the reason behind his actions [2 Peter 1: 3, Colossians 1:16, Psalm 8:1] I don't see any reason to doubt that.


Isaiah 43:1-7
But now, thus says the Lord, your creator, O Jacob, and He who formed you, O Israel,
"Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine! When
you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they will not
overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, nor will the flame
burn you. For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given
Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place. Since you are precious in My sight,
since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other
peoples in exchange for your life. Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring
from the east, and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to
the south, 'Do not hold them back.' Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the
ends of the earth, everyone who is called by My name, and whom I have created for My
glory, whom I have formed even whom I have made" (NASB)

Is God for himself or is he for us? Is creation created for its own sake?
From beginning to end, the driving impulse of God's heart is to be praised for his glory. From creation to consummation his ultimate allegiance is to himself. His unwavering purpose in all he does is to exalt the honor of his name and to be marveled at for his grace and power.

Why did God choose a people for himself and make Israel his possession? Jeremiah 13:11, "I made the whole house of Israel ... cling to me, says the Lord, that they might be for me a people, a name, a praise and a glory."

Why did God rescue them from bondage in Egypt? Psalm 106:7-8, "Our fathers, when they were in Egypt, did not consider thy wonderful works...but rebelled against the Most High at the Red Sea. Yet he saved them for his name's sake that he might make known his mighty power."

Why did God spare them again and again in the wilderness? Ezekiel 20:14, "I acted for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out."

Why didn't God cast away his people when they rejected him as king and asked for a king like the nations? 1 Samuel 12:20-22, "Fear not, you have done all this evil yet do not turn aside from following the Lord ... For the Lord will not cast away his people for his great name's sake."

Why did God use his sovereign power to bring back his people from exile after punishing four generations of sin? Isaiah (48:9,11) put it like this, "For my name's sake I defer my anger, for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you ... For my own sake, for my own sake I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another."

Ezekiel 36:22-23,32 puts it like this: "Thus says the Lord God, 'It is not for your sake, 0 house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name ... And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name ... and the nations will know that I am the Lord. It is not for your sake that I will act,' says the Lord God. Let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, 0 house of Israel.'"

Why did the Son of God come to earth and to his final decisive hour? John 17:1, "Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee." A beautiful conspiracy to glorify the Godhead in all the work of redemption!

And why will Jesus come again in the great day of consummation? 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10, "Those who do not obey the gospel will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints and to be marveled at in all who have believed... "  

[Meili Kyumee Youichi]

I really love how Captain answers the questions that people commonly asked about God's glory (as Rednal questioned).
This is a great disussion =)