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 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:44 pm
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:34 am
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:33 am
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:48 am
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:03 am
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Garland-Green Grand Monarch of Heaven Hi, I have to point out that there are sources which claim the topic quote was not attributed to him Which sources? razz
Quote: I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. The materialism of affluent Christian countries appears to contradict the claims of Jesus Christ that says it's not possible to worship both Mammon and God at the same time. As quoted by William Rees-Mogg in The Times [London] (4 April 2005) {not found}. Gandhi here makes reference to a statement of Jesus: “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." (Luke 16:13); also partly quoted in Christianity in the Crosshairs : Real Life Solutions Discovered in the Line of Fire (2004) by Bill Wilson I have found no authoritative source for Gandhi saying this. The actual quote is attributed to Bara Dada, "Jesus is ideal and wonderful, but you Christians -- you are not like him." Source - Jones, E. Stanley. The Christ of the Indian Road, New York: The Abingdon Press,1925. (Page 114)
Found here |
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:23 am
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Interesting Autobiographer
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:39 am
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Grand Monarch of Heaven Garland-Green Grand Monarch of Heaven Hi, I have to point out that there are sources which claim the topic quote was not attributed to him Which sources? razz Quote: I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. The materialism of affluent Christian countries appears to contradict the claims of Jesus Christ that says it's not possible to worship both Mammon and God at the same time. As quoted by William Rees-Mogg in The Times [London] (4 April 2005) {not found}. Gandhi here makes reference to a statement of Jesus: “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." (Luke 16:13); also partly quoted in Christianity in the Crosshairs : Real Life Solutions Discovered in the Line of Fire (2004) by Bill Wilson I have found no authoritative source for Gandhi saying this. The actual quote is attributed to Bara Dada, "Jesus is ideal and wonderful, but you Christians -- you are not like him." Source - Jones, E. Stanley. The Christ of the Indian Road, New York: The Abingdon Press,1925. (Page 114) Found here
Ah, I see. In that case I stand corrected brother.
In my view it makes the whole matter worse, because
this means there are those who without justification use Gandhi's name
to cut off the debate with a slammed door, and without real understanding of who Christ was accuse those who follow his words to be erroneous in doing so. Sure there are hypocrite, but not every Christian is a hypocrite the moment he opens his mouth to tell you you need repentance, and this quote is used more as a weapon to silence believers than to admonish those who believe to be more Christlike.
Many of those using the quote are clearly trying to use Gandhi's authority to circumvent real argument and compel a guilt trip for doing the very things Jesus commanded us to do, such as for example preach the word, or else deliver some compact lesson on Christian behavior that avoids messy details. They could of course just say the same thing themselves, but when that happens, it loses what little bit of force it had as a "celebrity" quote -- and that was the only thing it had going for it. |
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Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:04 am
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Meili Kyumee Youichi ok, I won't use that quote anymore, even though I usually use it more to the positive side (eg. to change to be Christians that much alike with Christ) =) The only thing I'm wondering is that: "Gandhi liked only the Christ of his own making and he believed that he was worthy of the favor of this Christ." I think that sentence is vague/assumptions. Where is the source proof of Gandhi thinking that way? I don't think we can judge him just based on a sentences quote he made.
It is kind of irrelevant if the quote did not originate with Gandhi,
but Gandhi's view of Christ and God was colored by his culture, and it prevented him from knowing Christ. To Gandhi Jesus was simply a great teacher, and that was all... Though he believed Quote: Jesus exemplified this spirit that Jesus exemplified in the highest measure, in its most profound human sense.
Matthew 10:33 - But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
John 8:24 - That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins."
What Jesus Means to Me by Mahatma Gandhi
Quote: Although I have devoted a large part of my life to the study of religion and to discussion with religious leaders of all faiths, I know very well that I cannot but seem presumptuous in writing about Jesus Christ and trying to explain what he means to me. I do so only because my Christian friends have told me, on more than a few occasions, that for the very reason I am not a Christian and that (I shall quote their words exactly) “I do not accept Christ in the bottom of my heart as the only Son of God,” it is impossible for me to understand the profound significance of his teachings, or to know and interpret the greatest source of spiritual strength that man has ever known. Although this may or may not be true in my case, I have reasons to believe that it is an erroneous point of view. I believe that such an estimate is incompatible with the message that Jesus Christ gave to the world. For, he was certainly the highest example of one who wished to give everything, asking nothing in return, and not caring what creed might happen to be professed by the recipient. I am sure that if he were living here now among men, he would bless the lives of many who perhaps have never even heard his name, if only their lives embodied the virtues of which he was a living example on earth; the virtues of loving one’s neighbour as oneself and of doing good and charitable works among one’s fellowmen. What, then, does Jesus mean to me? To me, he was one of the greatest teachers humanity has ever had. To his believers, he was God’s only begotten Son.* |
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:26 am
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I believe this was your source:
What Jesus Means to Me by Mahatma Gandhi
Then, we are seeing from the same source =)
Jesus is fully human and fully God.
Although he mostly comments on the human's side of Jesus as you have commented, he also recognize him as the Son of God as quoted.
Quote: My interpretation, in other words, is that in Jesus’ own life is the key of his nearness to God; that he expressed, as no other could, the spirit and will of God. It is in this sense that I see him and recognize him as the Son of God.
The thing I want to stress on is I don't want to make assumptions/judgement that he is wrong or right based on those quotes.
James 4:11-12
Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
heart |
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:01 am
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Meili Kyumee Youichi I believe this was your source: What Jesus Means to Me by Mahatma GandhiThen, we are seeing from the same source =) Jesus is fully human and fully God. Although he mostly comments on the human's side of Jesus as you have commented, he also recognize him as the Son of God as quoted. Quote: My interpretation, in other words, is that in Jesus’ own life is the key of his nearness to God; that he expressed, as no other could, the spirit and will of God. It is in this sense that I see him and recognize him as the Son of God. The thing I want to stress on is I don't want to make assumptions/judgement that he is wrong or right based on those quotes. James 4:11-12
Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor? heart
I am sorry if it what I say comes of as slander, a false and malicious statement or report about someone. There is no malice behind what I have said. A mans words reveals the condition of his heart, and we are able to know his heart based on the words that come out of his mouth.
To judge is to pass sentence, it is not the same as pointing out error.
Many get those two confused. We should not be afraid to do that, because it can save lives. heart
We won't be very effective witnesses if we don't make calls on other peoples standing with God. If we make calls based on scripture we know these to be true.
Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Correction is not judgment, as the Bible says that we should correct, rebuke and be bold to those who are sinning. It is to be done in an act of caring for them in the hope that they will believe. That way we could contribute to the saving of a soul. If we don't, we could be responsible for suppressing the truth which could mean eternal death instead of eternal life for that person. "James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
Quote: My interpretation, in other words, is that in Jesus’ own life is the key of his nearness to God; that he expressed, as no other could, the spirit and will of God. It is in this sense that I see him and recognize him as the Son of God.
What he means is Jesus actions, and the ideals Jesus held was why he was the Son of God, not through His person. Having knowledge of who Jesus is,
is important. Without that knowledge our trust and hope may be misplaced.
It is also important that we know what believe, and why we believe what we believe so that when we meet people, and we admire someone that we don't fall for their interpretation of things, or avoid pointing out their error when we see them because we think it is disrespectful.
Ezekiel 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."
I hope this makes sense sister. heart It was never my intent to step on toes,
just for the sake of stepping on toes.
Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ. |
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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:39 am
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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:46 am
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Meili Kyumee Youichi Great, I'm glad that you intention was not to judge. wink In the article, I read so many kind of rude comments there about Gandhi and I feel the overwhelming judging intentions from other Christian too; which I believe are inappropriate. Thanks for clearing out the differences too heart God bless you biggrin
Many use the quote "Do not judge..." from Matthew out of context, to say that you should not speak at all when you see someone sin. If we examine what is says it is actually a warning against hypocrisy. That if we sin ourselves, we are not in any place to help our brother be healed. We can not have one standard for ourselves, and one for our brother.
Matthew 7: 1-5
7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. |
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Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:11 am
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Garland-Green Many use the quote "Do not judge..." from Matthew out of context, to say that you should not speak at all when you see someone sin. If we examine what is says it is actually a warning against hypocrisy. That if we sin ourselves, we are not in any place to help our brother be healed. We can not have one standard for ourselves, and one for our brother. Matthew 7: 1-5 7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Thanks, God bless you too heart |
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