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The Bible on long hair for men.

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911child

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:49 pm
I am curious about this, is it ok for a guy to have long hair? I am going to guess we are talking about if it is ok for a man to have hair the length of a woman, down their back and such.

1 Corinthians 11:14-15 says:

New King James Version (NKJV)
14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering.

Some people use the story of Samson, a man who was told by God to not cut his hair, and in doing so he will have great strength (i am going of my memory) to say that the bible is contradictory because God says not to cut his hair, where 1 Corinthians says men should not have long hair.

I would really like your opinions and any advice you can give. I will be asking my pastor tomorrow about this topic.  
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:07 pm
Idealy before the time, long hair was not a problem. Samson was declared as the one who cannot cut his hair. As the verse was stated, this ideal was directly to those who wish to be like samson and not follow the Lord. Basically, having long hair would be known for as idolatry ( being like samson ). Does not.the Bible say "Jesus as well had long hair"? Basically, it's not contradiction. It is mainly saying :

If you want long.hair because you feel like it and declared that another follower of God had this, the verse in 1 Corinthians will be for that ideal.

However, the ideal was not to say long hair is evil. It's when you idolize it that would be declared evil.

-The wise Informer

Basically, don't let your long hair be of something that is desired for idolatry. But let it be by God's will. If he say to cut it, cut it smile better to follow than to be an idolizer. Hope this helps.  

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911child

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:40 pm
Christiankid_leon_
Idealy before the time, long hair was not a problem. Samson was declared as the one who cannot cut his hair. As the verse was stated, this ideal was directly to those who wish to be like samson and not follow the Lord. Basically, having long hair would be known for as idolatry ( being like samson ). Does not.the Bible say "Jesus as well had long hair"? Basically, it's not contradiction. It is mainly saying :

If you want long.hair because you feel like it and declared that another follower of God had this, the verse in 1 Corinthians will be for that ideal.

However, the ideal was not to say long hair is evil. It's when you idolize it that would be declared evil.

-The wise Informer

Basically, don't let your long hair be of something that is desired for idolatry. But let it be by God's will. If he say to cut it, cut it smile better to follow than to be an idolizer. Hope this helps.


I dont think the bible says Jesus had long hair, actually, i dont think the bible does not even describe Jesus's appearance at all. 'least i dont think so. The image we 'recognize' to be Jesus is just an artist interpretation of what he may look like.  
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:04 am
911child
Christiankid_leon_
Idealy before the time, long hair was not a problem. Samson was declared as the one who cannot cut his hair. As the verse was stated, this ideal was directly to those who wish to be like samson and not follow the Lord. Basically, having long hair would be known for as idolatry ( being like samson ). Does not.the Bible say "Jesus as well had long hair"? Basically, it's not contradiction. It is mainly saying :

If you want long.hair because you feel like it and declared that another follower of God had this, the verse in 1 Corinthians will be for that ideal.

However, the ideal was not to say long hair is evil. It's when you idolize it that would be declared evil.

-The wise Informer

Basically, don't let your long hair be of something that is desired for idolatry. But let it be by God's will. If he say to cut it, cut it smile better to follow than to be an idolizer. Hope this helps.


I dont think the bible says Jesus had long hair, actually, i dont think the bible does not even describe Jesus's appearance at all. 'least i dont think so. The image we 'recognize' to be Jesus is just an artist interpretation of what he may look like.


Descriptions are in The bible.  

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:46 am
The Nazirite Vow is different in nature, even though it calls for the man to grow his hair out. The Vow has nothing to do with cosmetic purposes, ergo it has nothing to do with shame; it's a direct commandment from God as an act of worship towards him (ergo, not idolatry either): you grow out the hair to later sacrifice all of it as a fellowship offering on the altar. The details of the Nazirite Vow are in Numbers 6:1-21. In order to keep the sacrifice pure, once under the vow, a person can't eat or drink anything that comes from the grape vine and they can't cut their hair for however long the period of dedication is. If they come near a dead body they need to shave off their hair and start all over again from square one.

Comparing the law to Samson's story, he was under the Nazirite vow (his story begins with the angel and his parents in Judges 13). However, he violated all of the details listed in Numbers 6. The super strength didn't originate from his hair, though he thought it did. Otherwise, anyone under the Nazirite Vow would have super human strength. For some reason or another, YHWH allowed him to have that ability—until Samson totally violated whatever allegiance he held for God and his ways. He eventually did regain his super human strength in the end after asking God for it back. So he did learn his lesson, albeit committing suicide shortly after (taking his enemies out with him too, but still; it's not like Jesus who died at the hands of his enemies. Samson died from his own hands, literally).

But not to belabor the point, the Nazirite vow is neither Idolatrous nor shameful.

Aside from Paul's epistle, the other bad example of having long hair (though the hair's length is not explicitly stated), is Absalom (David's son), whose hair got caught in a tree as he was being pursued by David's army.

Quote:
2 Samuel 18:9(NIV)

9 Now Absalom happened to meet David’s men. He was riding his mule, and as the mule went under the thick branches of a large oak, Absalom’s hair got caught in the tree. He was left hanging in midair, while the mule he was riding kept on going.


Quote:
2 Samuel 14:25 (NIV)

25 In all Israel there was not a man so highly praised for his handsome appearance as Absalom. From the top of his head to the sole of his foot there was no blemish in him.


So, because he got trapped in the tree, David's men catch up to him later, and kill him. For anyone who may not be familiar with this story, I feel it important to point out: David wanted Absalom alive, expecting he'd repent, instead of dying at the hands of his men—though it was Absalom who started the assassination attempt on David (and I see parallels of Lucifer vs. God in their relationship, so if you have not read it, I would recommend that you do; it's very interesting ^o^).

The example from Paul's epistle and of Absalom seem to address growing out your hair for cosmetic reasons.

Another example of "long" hair being "good", however, are the high priests of the Old Testament; on the one hand, they didn't keep it short, but on the other hand they did not allow it to grow past their shoulders (extra-biblical detail), but in the bible itself, they clearly had longer-than-buzzcut hair length.

Quote:
Leviticus 21:5-6 (NIV)

5 “‘Priests must not shave their heads or shave off the edges of their beards or cut their bodies. 6 They must be holy to their God and must not profane the name of their God. Because they present the food offerings to the Lord, the food of their God, they are to be holy.


Quote:
Leviticus 21:10 (NIV)

10 “‘The high priest, the one among his brothers who has had the anointing oil poured on his head and who has been ordained to wear the priestly garments, must not let his hair become unkempt[a] or tear his clothes.

Footnotes:

a Leviticus 21:10 Or not uncover his head


You can compare those verses from Leviticus in other versions if you like. The high priest cannot make himself bald, nor let his hair be a mangled mess. So, despite not being short, it's also not Nazirite-Vow-type length, or at the very least, not to the degree of Samson's hair.

Conclusion:

- if it's for cosmetic reasons, it's shameful for a man to have his hair at a length that covers him (so, past his shoulders), plus it could become inconvenient on a practical level.

- if it's following God's commands, it's not shameful. In the case of the Nazirite offering, you're going to offer the whole head of hair later anyway. If you're a high priest (though the chances of that are slim lol) you're not growing it past your shoulders.  
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:22 pm
The answer I have found on this is, "Yes, it is okay for a man to have long hair." I grew up in a church that thought otherwise, but after reviewing The Holy Bible, I have found no opposition against it.

Sampson was a Nazarite and Jesus was a Nazarite. The Nazarite have quite a few vows to follow, and one includes not to cut their hair:

Numbers 6:5

‘During the entire period of their Nazirite vow, no razor may be used on their head. They must be holy until the period of their dedication to the Lord is over; they must let their hair grow long.


Feel free to read the surrounding context if you're interested in what other vows that the Nazarite had to follow 3nodding

Whether Jesus had long hair or not, he was still a Nazarite so even if he did have long hair, he would not have been able to cut it due to the Nazarite vow.

NO where does it say specifically that "Men having long hair is wrong and women having short hair is wrong." People just twist the meaning of that 1 Corinthians 14 - 15 verse to fit their social ideal of that's how it should be.

No matter why a man has his hair long whether for cosmetic, cultural, or belief purposes - it's not wrong.

I honestly can't see Jesus saying to a man, "You have sinned because your hair is too long!" or to a woman, "You have sinned because your hair is too short!" I can't see it.  

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:06 am
Aquatic_blue
No matter why a man has his hair long whether for cosmetic, cultural, or belief purposes - it's not wrong.

I honestly can't see Jesus saying to a man, "You have sinned because your hair is too long!" or to a woman, "You have sinned because your hair is too short!" I can't see it.


In the past, you've shared that you came out of an abusively sexist church (if I'm not mistaken), but don't let that blind you to what's actually being said. From what I quoted of your post, the first point is too vague and the second is a straw man. Long hair length for a man, or short hair length for a female, is not being called a sin. If it has grown passed a certain length on a man; or if it's shorn to an extreme on a woman, it is something deemed shameful / a disgrace. But it is not sin... unless you're trying to cross dress and deceive people lol. In that case, Jesus could say, "you have sinned because your hair is too long/too short", you intended to deceive by doing so. Thus, the former statement ("No matter why a man has his hair long whether for cosmetic, cultural, or belief purposes - it's not wrong") is a bit too general.

Perhaps it would be helpful to quote the verses in question: it's not a sin issue, but a shame/disgrace issue:

Quote:
1 Corinthians 11:4-16 (NIV)

4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

7 A man ought not to cover his head,[a] since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own[b ] head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.

Footnotes:

a. 1 Corinthians 11:7 Or 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with long hair dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with no covering of hair dishonors her head—she is just like one of the “shorn women.” 6 If a woman has no covering, let her be for now with short hair; but since it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair shorn or shaved, she should grow it again. 7 A man ought not to have long hair

b. 1 Corinthians 11:10 Or have a sign of authority on her


As far as males go, with respect to the Nazirite Vow, it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to grow it to the extent of Samson. Numbers 6 does not set the length of time (days, weeks, months, years) for each person, since the Nazarite vow is a voluntary offering/promise; it seems like the person themselves decides how long they'll be under the vow, but whatever they promise at the beginning is what they're held accountable to (especially if they have to restart the process for coming near a dead body). Numbers 6 does not go into different vows; it's one vow with many attributes that must all be adhered to in order to avoid violating the vow.

About Jesus, two things: first, Jesus was our high priest (and high priests did not grow it past their shoulders) whose to say his hair had grown passed that? especially when you have Paul stating he imitates Christ in everything (1 Corinthians 11:1) yet he's the one calling long hair on men shameful? If Jesus had grown it longer, going past the shoulders, Paul would not be calling any length shameful no matter how long. Second, and more importantly, Jesus was not under a Nazirite vow. Jesus clearly drank wine when dining with sinners (Luke 7:33-34) which is prohibited for someone under the Nazirite Vow (Numbers 6:1-4); he also drank wine at the last supper, where he told us to drink wine in remembrance of him (Luke 22:17-20). Also at that time, he promised not to drink wine again until we reunite with him (aside from Luke that I just cited, it's also found in Matthew 26:29 and Mark 14:25), hence why he refused to drink the wine offered to him at the cross in Matthew 27:34). He was not under the Nazirite vow. Do not mistake "being from Nazareth" for "being under the Nazirite vow"—the latter is a voluntary offering made to God having nothing to do with the place of your birth.

The one under the Nazirite Vow was John the Baptist:

Quote:
Luke 1:13-16 (NIV)

13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. 16 He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God.


Perhaps your confusion came about from remembering the verses where Jesus vows to not drink wine again until we are re-united with him, and refusing to drink wine at the cross, but he did not do so out of obligation to a Nazirite vow. The one under a Nazirite Vow in the New Testament was John who, like Samson's conception, was a Nazirite from the womb (Judges 13).


As for Paul's statement concerning women with shorn hair being disgraced, I see parallels of hair removal being equated to shame/disgrace in the Old Testament too. Such an act is also associated with death and purification (two sides of the same coin; something ceases existing when a thing has been purified); the common denominator: it's a humbling and/or purifying act. Just like it's shameful for a woman's head to be shaved, it's shameful for a man's beard to be shaved. They're encouraged to grow hair out, but for women, it's the hair on your head; for men, it's the hair on your chin.

An example of Humiliation:

Quote:
2 Samuel 10:4-5 (NIV)

4 So Hanun seized David’s envoys, shaved off half of each man’s beard, cut off their garments at the buttocks, and sent them away.

5 When David was told about this, he sent messengers to meet the men, for they were greatly humiliated. The king said, “Stay at Jericho till your beards have grown, and then come back.”



An example of shaving over death/mourning due to punishment of evil:

Quote:
Jeremiah 48:37-38 (NIV)

37 Every head is shaved
and every beard cut off;
every hand is slashed
and every waist is covered with sackcloth.
38 On all the roofs in Moab
and in the public squares
there is nothing but mourning,
for I have broken Moab
like a jar that no one wants,”
declares the Lord.



An example of Israel getting shaved from their enemies to humble them and be accepted by God again:
Quote:
Isaiah 7:20 (NIV)

20 In that day the Lord will use a razor hired from beyond the Euphrates River—the king of Assyria—to shave your head and private parts, and to cut off your beard also.


I think it only speaks of modern day perversion that we see these things as an act worth emulating for cosmetic purposes and not for the shameful and/or humbling acts they use to be. In fact, it was Egypt who prized being clean-shaven (Genesis 41:14). Do we really want to share the views of Egypt / the world? I don't think we should. We're suppose to renew our minds, not be conformed to the world, and see things from YHWH's perspective (truth). inb4: I'm not saying you can't shave in order to conform to the etiquette of another culture and be on communication terms with them. Like Paul said, you become like the person you're trying to save so they can relate to you, but it's solely for the purpose of delivering the truth to them and getting them to reconcile with God, not because you personally approve of what they practice (1 Corinthians 9:21-23).

Your choice, whatever it is, is a Godly one if you're doing it to save somebody, prevent stumbling/sin, and to honor God. If you're doing it solely for cosmetic purposes, I don't think there's enough evidence to support the choice as Godly.  
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:46 am
real eyes realize answer this question nicely from Bible references too!
Thanks, I appreciate that smile  

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:57 pm
Christiankid_leon_
911child
Christiankid_leon_
Idealy before the time, long hair was not a problem. Samson was declared as the one who cannot cut his hair. As the verse was stated, this ideal was directly to those who wish to be like samson and not follow the Lord. Basically, having long hair would be known for as idolatry ( being like samson ). Does not.the Bible say "Jesus as well had long hair"? Basically, it's not contradiction. It is mainly saying :

If you want long.hair because you feel like it and declared that another follower of God had this, the verse in 1 Corinthians will be for that ideal.

However, the ideal was not to say long hair is evil. It's when you idolize it that would be declared evil.

-The wise Informer

Basically, don't let your long hair be of something that is desired for idolatry. But let it be by God's will. If he say to cut it, cut it smile better to follow than to be an idolizer. Hope this helps.


I dont think the bible says Jesus had long hair, actually, i dont think the bible does not even describe Jesus's appearance at all. 'least i dont think so. The image we 'recognize' to be Jesus is just an artist interpretation of what he may look like.


Descriptions are in The bible.


What verses?  
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:24 pm
Ive read every reply, and i am a tad confused honestly. If someone could give me a very rough, yes its ok, or no its not, with some reasons for which way (bible verses if you want) that would be helpful.  

911child

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:25 pm
I wouldn't flat out say "abusively sexist", for the sake of modesty and that there may be people that feel trapped in that church, don't want to be hated or excommunited, but believe differently so they stay. I can't judge the souls of the people there. The core beliefs of the church as a whole, weren't Biblically right for many reasons and not all included sexist ideas.

I take a lot of society factors in this when considering the idea of men wearing long hair. A lot of this goes back to Rome, where men generally had shorter hairstyles - that was the way to keep hair. If a men had longer hair, or a "natural" style - it was generally associated with being a barbarian. So according to society's standards, most people wouldn't want to be considered a barbarian due to the length of their hair. Isn't that how some Christians that see men with long hair. This is just as the idea of women being called a "disgrace" for spreading the gospel during the revival of religion in colonial times. A more specific example of this is Jonathan Edwards saying that Bathsheba Kingsley who stole a horse and rode to different locations preaching the gospel was "perverting the spirit of revival." Edwards was also horrified that a woman would do such a thing during the Awakening. Women in these times just as before, fought for their own place in society and even now across the world women are often treated as less to some people because that's a possible societal view that has been around a long time.

When talking about long hair on men and short hair on women, keep in mind society at this time. The cult of Dionysus was definitely the rage for some. It wasn't uncommon for those of the cult of Dionysus to crossdress to appear as one of the opposite gender. Paul was talking to a corrupt church with corrupt practices and did do his best to get people on the right track. Some of his statements he said that were "No way!" statements to draw in the crowd and then he would explain and his writing style is unique so it must always be examined carefully.

Quote:
As far as males go, with respect to the Nazirite Vow, it doesn't necessarily mean they're going to grow it to the extent of Samson.


Yes, I am aware that it was as long as the Nazarite vow lasted. However, The Holy Bible never tell us for sure whether Jesus had long hair or short hair and whether his hair was ever cut. So how are we supposed to be 100% sure whether Jesus' hair was long or short? All we know is that he was a Nazarite and under the Nazarite vow so either way, he was growing his hair out.

Not everyone's hair will be the same length when they grow it out. Some people's hair grows faster than others. The Bible to my knowledge doesn't even state how long Sampson's hair was exactly. So the length of hair cannot be determined, it was the fact of when to and when not to cut it according to whether a vow was fulfilled or not. Makes sense.

Quote:
especially when you have Paul stating he imitates Christ in everything (1 Corinthians 11:1) yet he's the one calling long hair on men shameful?


For one, we are unsure whether 1 Corinthians 11:1 included hair length. Two, in Roman society - which Paul was...he was Roman (formerly known as Saul of Tarsus). Chances are, he would have had short hair due to that becoming the norm of Roman society. Short hair on men was often appropriate for society and long hair on men wasn't so likeable at a point.  
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:12 am
911child
Ive read every reply, and i am a tad confused honestly. If someone could give me a very rough, yes its ok, or no its not, with some reasons for which way (bible verses if you want) that would be helpful.


There's no such simple answer. The reason for growing it out is the whole issue. Like I previously said, for selfish, cosmetic reasons only, I would say no (for any length past the shoulders). Are you growing it out to be on speaking terms with another person and reach that person for Christ, reconciling them to God? then, yes that would be a godly decision. Are you under a nazirite vow? then yes, also godly (though it's impossible to be under the Nazirite Vow nowadays really, without an earthly priesthood since it involves shaving your head and offering it up on the altar with the Levitical priests; until the earthly priesthood gets reestablished no one can actually carry this out by the book, even if you wanted to). Generally-speaking, growing hair past the shoulders is deemed a disgrace for a man. Long-hair length (so past the shoulders) is the glory for women, not men, is what Paul is saying.



@Aquatic:

That would be a convincing way of going about things if it were an isolated incident, only characteristic of Roman Society, but it's a repeated truth throughout the prophets and David's reign as I showed you. Shaving is a disgraceful act against a person because men wanted to grow out their beards and women wanted to grow out the hair on their heads. And Paul is not associating it with idolatry/worship of other Gods. He's making this an issue of shame/disgrace, even taking this back to Genesis. He could've just said "we are to be a holy people, only worshiping God so don't shave your heads like the pagans / unconverted gentiles around you" something to that effect if the real issue were surrounding pagan cults. I was keeping society in mind that's why I took it to other societies and times documented in scripture (prophets, David, etc..)

I don't know if you actually finished reading the whole post where I mentioned it wasn't Jesus under the Nazirite Vow, but John. However, going with your stance, do you see the problems that are presented had Jesus actually been under the Nazirite Vow? You're accusing him of being a man who doesn't hold to his promises nor the word of God (thus sinful), because every time he took a sip of wine he would have been violating that vow to God. Furthermore, every time he would have come near a dead body to revive them, that would've necessitated him to shave his hair off and start the count again. Which, as our anointed high priest, that would've been a direct violation of God's commands in Leviticus 21 that called for the priests and high priests not to make themselves bald. Neither priest nor high priest can be under a Nazirite Vow for they risk disobeying the conditions of being a priest in the first place just to obey the head shaving command of the Nazirite Vow (upon completion of the vow or for violating the vow when coming into the presence of a corpse). In that we can be 100% sure that his hair was not buzz-cut short.

Lastly, the point I was making with 1 Corinthians 11:1, about Paul saying he imitated Christ in everything, was to convey that Paul approved of everything that Jesus did, not necessarily that Paul grew out his hair. My main point being, why would Paul speak disapprovingly of something Jesus did if in fact Jesus had grown his hair longer than shoulder length? This also presents an inconsistency in your view. You say Jesus never cut his hair because of a Nazirite Vow, but had he been going around reviving corpses (dead bodies), he would've had to cut his hair off if he were really under the Nazirite Vow, that's what Numbers 6 commands him to do for coming near dead bodies. The truth is, he didn't make himself bald, not because of a Nazirite Vow, but because of the command given to the high priests to not make himself bald. He also didn't grow out his hair to a long mane either, we know that not just because Paul is calling long hair-length on men shameful, but it's also a supported truth by the prophet Ezekiel:

Quote:
Ezekiel 44:15-20 (NIV)

15 “‘But the Levitical priests, who are descendants of Zadok and who guarded my sanctuary when the Israelites went astray from me, are to come near to minister before me; they are to stand before me to offer sacrifices of fat and blood, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 They alone are to enter my sanctuary; they alone are to come near my table to minister before me and serve me as guards.

17 “‘When they enter the gates of the inner court, they are to wear linen clothes; they must not wear any woolen garment while ministering at the gates of the inner court or inside the temple. 18 They are to wear linen turbans on their heads and linen undergarments around their waists. They must not wear anything that makes them perspire. 19 When they go out into the outer court where the people are, they are to take off the clothes they have been ministering in and are to leave them in the sacred rooms, and put on other clothes, so that the people are not consecrated through contact with their garments.

20 “‘They must not shave their heads or let their hair grow long, but they are to keep the hair of their heads trimmed.


Like I was saying, priests grew their hair out, but not past a certain length. Stays in line with what Paul is saying, consistent with God's law, and the prophets. And in this verse, we can know 100% that Jesus would not grow his hair longer than that. So, as has been shown, we can know 100% Jesus did not have his hair buzz-cut short (priest commands in Leviticus) nor grown long (priest command in Ezekiel + Paul).

interesting side note: this prophecy is about the earthly priesthood getting restored which hasn't happened yet. This is still off in the future; this is after the lost tribes of Israel reunite under one king (and that prophecy is documented 7 chapters earlier in Ezekiel 37). Most of the tribes are still scattered; only the southern kingdom returned from exile.  

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:51 pm
real eyes realize
911child
Ive read every reply, and i am a tad confused honestly. If someone could give me a very rough, yes its ok, or no its not, with some reasons for which way (bible verses if you want) that would be helpful.


There's no such simple answer. The reason for growing it out is the whole issue. Like I previously said, for selfish, cosmetic reasons only, I would say no (for any length past the shoulders). Are you growing it out to be on speaking terms with another person and reach that person for Christ, reconciling them to God? then, yes that would be a godly decision. Are you under a nazirite vow? then yes, also godly (though it's impossible to be under the Nazirite Vow nowadays really, without an earthly priesthood since it involves shaving your head and offering it up on the altar with the Levitical priests; until the earthly priesthood gets reestablished no one can actually carry this out by the book, even if you wanted to). Generally-speaking, growing hair past the shoulders is deemed a disgrace for a man. Long-hair length (so past the shoulders) is the glory for women, not men, is what Paul is saying.



@Aquatic:

That would be a convincing way of going about things if it were an isolated incident, only characteristic of Roman Society, but it's a repeated truth throughout the prophets and David's reign as I showed you. Shaving is a disgraceful act against a person because men wanted to grow out their beards and women wanted to grow out the hair on their heads. And Paul is not associating it with idolatry/worship of other Gods. He's making this an issue of shame/disgrace, even taking this back to Genesis. He could've just said "we are to be a holy people, only worshiping God so don't shave your heads like the pagans / unconverted gentiles around you" something to that effect if the real issue were surrounding pagan cults. I was keeping society in mind that's why I took it to other societies and times documented in scripture (prophets, David, etc..)

I don't know if you actually finished reading the whole post where I mentioned it wasn't Jesus under the Nazirite Vow, but John. However, going with your stance, do you see the problems that are presented had Jesus actually been under the Nazirite Vow? You're accusing him of being a man who doesn't hold to his promises nor the word of God (thus sinful), because every time he took a sip of wine he would have been violating that vow to God. Furthermore, every time he would have come near a dead body to revive them, that would've necessitated him to shave his hair off and start the count again. Which, as our anointed high priest, that would've been a direct violation of God's commands in Leviticus 21 that called for the priests and high priests not to make themselves bald. Neither priest nor high priest can be under a Nazirite Vow for they risk disobeying the conditions of being a priest in the first place just to obey the head shaving command of the Nazirite Vow (upon completion of the vow or for violating the vow when coming into the presence of a corpse). In that we can be 100% sure that his hair was not buzz-cut short.

Lastly, the point I was making with 1 Corinthians 11:1, about Paul saying he imitated Christ in everything, was to convey that Paul approved of everything that Jesus did, not necessarily that Paul grew out his hair. My main point being, why would Paul speak disapprovingly of something Jesus did if in fact Jesus had grown his hair longer than shoulder length? This also presents an inconsistency in your view. You say Jesus never cut his hair because of a Nazirite Vow, but had he been going around reviving corpses (dead bodies), he would've had to cut his hair off if he were really under the Nazirite Vow, that's what Numbers 6 commands him to do for coming near dead bodies. The truth is, he didn't make himself bald, not because of a Nazirite Vow, but because of the command given to the high priests to not make himself bald. He also didn't grow out his hair to a long mane either, we know that not just because Paul is calling long hair-length on men shameful, but it's also a supported truth by the prophet Ezekiel:

Quote:
Ezekiel 44:15-20 (NIV)

15 “‘But the Levitical priests, who are descendants of Zadok and who guarded my sanctuary when the Israelites went astray from me, are to come near to minister before me; they are to stand before me to offer sacrifices of fat and blood, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 They alone are to enter my sanctuary; they alone are to come near my table to minister before me and serve me as guards.

17 “‘When they enter the gates of the inner court, they are to wear linen clothes; they must not wear any woolen garment while ministering at the gates of the inner court or inside the temple. 18 They are to wear linen turbans on their heads and linen undergarments around their waists. They must not wear anything that makes them perspire. 19 When they go out into the outer court where the people are, they are to take off the clothes they have been ministering in and are to leave them in the sacred rooms, and put on other clothes, so that the people are not consecrated through contact with their garments.

20 “‘They must not shave their heads or let their hair grow long, but they are to keep the hair of their heads trimmed.


Like I was saying, priests grew their hair out, but not past a certain length. Stays in line with what Paul is saying, consistent with God's law, and the prophets. And in this verse, we can know 100% that Jesus would not grow his hair longer than that. So, as has been shown, we can know 100% Jesus did not have his hair buzz-cut short (priest commands in Leviticus) nor grown long (priest command in Ezekiel + Paul).

interesting side note: this prophecy is about the earthly priesthood getting restored which hasn't happened yet. This is still off in the future; this is after the lost tribes of Israel reunite under one king (and that prophecy is documented 7 chapters earlier in Ezekiel 37). Most of the tribes are still scattered; only the southern kingdom returned from exile.



ah, ok that makes sense, thank you.  
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:12 pm
Personally, I have to say, it doesn't matter really. I've read every post here. And by all means, I'm just gonna give a simple answer smile

No, it doesn't matter.  

Hero just hero

Dangerous Informer


Viviane_neechan

Blessed Codger

PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:50 pm
Where I live we have The Lamp, a radio station that plays sermons from various pastors of Calvary Chapel throughout the day.

Now, Pastor Tony has said some things that have made a great deal of sense, and some things that are utterly ridiculous, so take that into consideration, but...

As far as the passage in 1 Corinthians goes, he said that at that time, you could tell who the prostitutes were by their shorn heads and "pushy" attitudes. He said that their hair was 'disgraceful' only because it marked the fact that they were prostitutes, and that they were taking on a more "pushy, manly role." this pastor's argument for long hair on men was that those men were taking on a more 'feminine' role, and that's why they were scolded.

Not exactly sure how accurate that last bit is, but I thought I'd tell you what I'd heard.

Ultimately, though, I would say no, it makes absolutely no difference. neutral I see it as a purely cosmetic thing, and as long as your appearance isn't leading others to sin/be tempted, I don't see how it would matter to God.  
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