Worth a read : Genderless Baby

[goth_gurl_120]

Genderless Baby Named Storm  

[Sea Thrift]

I remember this story. They came out some time ago and announced Storm was male. It's interesting.

In my opinion, though, I have some conflicted feelings about this story. I understand the parents' intentions, but I do also understand the opposing argument: is this really giving Storm freedom, or is it just Storm's parents imposing their own values on their child? It's a very relevant question which brings to light a realization--parents do impose their values onto their children, be those values positive, negative, or disputable among different parties. I don't see how it's possible for parents NOT to do this, lest they not communicate or remain disinterested with their children altogether. (But even that behavior can be a value in and of itself: your parents don't give a crap about you.)

A good example, I think, is this: the Martin family (search "dayna martin") practices unschooling in their home. Unschooling is the concept that true learning is had through genuine interest and passion for a subject; it allows the unschooled child/teen to choose their own subjects to learn, how and when they want to learn it. The Martin family even takes this philosophy into their parenting practices--the children do what they want, when they want. There's no authoritarian presence in their household, only respected partnerships between the parents and their children.

While these values give way for lots of freedom, it's still a number of values imposed on the Martin children. It's teaching them, this is the best way life and learning can be done; any other way will only work to take away your freedom, to make you into a lemming, to take away your dreams and make them worthless in the eyes of Western society.

I think this is where opposing arguments against Storm's family need to be corrected. The reality is, every parent instills some kind of value/principle into their child. It's inevitable. Even the things they mindlessly tell their child to do--say thank you, say you're sorry, share your toys, be nice, don't talk back, take out the trash, do the dishes, etc.--are all an imposition of values. They are.

To say there is a way for a parent to not impose their values onto their children is short-sided and ignorant. Honestly--a bit laughable. Is not giving your children only two options--boy or girl/pastel blue or pink--just another imposition of values? Worse, to chastise a child when they take the wrong option? Perhaps the better question is this: what sort of values can a parent instill in their child that will prepare them for the world, make them decent human beings, and also prize the freedom they've been given to be whomever they want while respecting that freedom in others?  

[AmeliaParadox]

Shouldn't try to fix what isn't broken.

don't force being trans on people, its s**t regardless no matter how well things go.  

[goth_gurl_120]

AmeliaParadox

Shouldn't try to fix what isn't broken.

don't force being trans on people, its s**t regardless no matter how well things go.

They are not forcing trans though. They gave storm the ability to be boy or girl by choice ad as the person above you said, storm was a boy. now whether or not storm stays a boy or decides he wants to be a girl is 100% up to him.  

[Sea Thrift]

Just to make things clear, though, I think the title of this thread is misleading. Storm was never genderless; he had a gender, but his parents refused to tell anyone else what it was.

Parents say Storm DOES have a gender (ETA: I think it should be said--there seems to be some confusion between sex and gender in all these articles, and even in my own post. The latter was unintentional, and perhaps the former is, too. Storm's sex was not revealed publicly until he was five years old, ALONG with his gender. But as expected, many people think that gender is dictated by sex, thus the confusion in terminology.)

This choice caused a lot of propaganda, a set of misunderstandings about what the parents were actually doing. People felt like THEM, the rest of society, not knowing Storm's gender meant that Storm himself was in fact genderless, ergo, the parents were not allowing Storm to choose his gender. (But it really isn't about Storm's choice to many people, is it?)

Let that sink in. It's kind of screwed up when you read it carefully. It suggests that Western society feels entitled to dictate the gender of complete strangers--including children. And if this society is denied access to someone's gender, it's a great offense that apparently stretches across hundreds of thousands of people: how dare parents teach their child that gender is an intimate and private piece of personal information, to teach them they don't have to make their gender OUR business? Child abuse!

Western society got upset that some parents don't put a label on their child for everyone to see, so the society does it for Storm. Because some of Western society didn't like that Storm's family had information which the parents said, "no, you guys don't need to know. Deal with it." I don't think people's reaction was atypical, but it was disappointing. It shows that we still have a long way to go.

Another question: is it really the rest of your society's business to know your gender--and is there an obligation you inherently have to show everyone what kind of genitals you possess? Because that is what many people presumed to be obligatory about Storm, a child. Strangers felt this way.

At the same time, Storm will slowly understand and begin to face this radical life principle his parents gave him. What will he do with it? Will he defend his parents' values in time, or resent them because of the negative attention it produced? I hope Storm comes to have the understanding that shows this important truth: his parents were trying to protect a part of his being that right now, most of his society is used to knowing as soon as an infant pops out of a v****a. His parents picked a time in modern society where many people weren't willing to comprehend the positive concepts within his parents' intentions. Perhaps his parents could've come about it differently, or maybe it happened exactly the way it needed to. It's too late now to know. I hope Storm is a curious and open-minded child who will ask a lot questions so he can fully understand one day--so he can see the polarity in his family compared to what most of everyone else instills in their children.

I think Storm's parents' intentions were good, and I find it refreshing to see parents who consider the idea that, hey... this is really no one else's business but our family's and Storm's at the end of the day. It's challenging the norm. After all, it really doesn't matter what strangers think about his sex and gender. He's the one who has to live with himself for the rest of his life; all that really matters is his acceptance and respect of who he is, not what others presume he is.  

[Sea Thrift]

Here's another good article on Storm Stocker. The comments are also very good. I suggest reading them.

The Secret Gender that Wasn't  

[goth_gurl_120]

Sea Thrift

Just to make things clear, though, I think the title of this thread is misleading. Storm was never genderless; he had a gender, but his parents refused to tell anyone else what it was.

Parents say Storm DOES have a gender (ETA: I think it should be said--there seems to be some confusion between sex and gender in all these articles, and even in my own post. The latter was unintentional, and perhaps the former is, too. Storm's sex was not revealed publicly until he was five years old, ALONG with his gender. But as expected, many people think that gender is dictated by sex, thus the confusion in terminology.)

This choice caused a lot of propaganda, a set of misunderstandings about what the parents were actually doing. People felt like THEM, the rest of society, not knowing Storm's gender meant that Storm himself was in fact genderless, ergo, the parents were not allowing Storm to choose his gender. (But it really isn't about Storm's choice to many people, is it?)

Let that sink in. It's kind of screwed up when you read it carefully. It suggests that Western society feels entitled to dictate the gender of complete strangers--including children. And if this society is denied access to someone's gender, it's a great offense that apparently stretches across hundreds of thousands of people: how dare parents teach their child that gender is an intimate and private piece of personal information, to teach them they don't have to make their gender OUR business? Child abuse!

Western society got upset that some parents don't put a label on their child for everyone to see, so the society does it for Storm. Because some of Western society didn't like that Storm's family had information which the parents said, "no, you guys don't need to know. Deal with it." I don't think people's reaction was atypical, but it was disappointing. It shows that we still have a long way to go.

Another question: is it really the rest of your society's business to know your gender--and is there an obligation you inherently have to show everyone what kind of genitals you possess? Because that is what many people presumed to be obligatory about Storm, a child. Strangers felt this way.

At the same time, Storm will slowly understand and begin to face this radical life principle his parents gave him. What will he do with it? Will he defend his parents' values in time, or resent them because of the negative attention it produced? I hope Storm comes to have the understanding that shows this important truth: his parents were trying to protect a part of his being that right now, most of his society is used to knowing as soon as an infant pops out of a v****a. His parents picked a time in modern society where many people weren't willing to comprehend the positive concepts within his parents' intentions. Perhaps his parents could've come about it differently, or maybe it happened exactly the way it needed to. It's too late now to know. I hope Storm is a curious and open-minded child who will ask a lot questions so he can fully understand one day--so he can see the polarity in his family compared to what most of everyone else instills in their children.

I think Storm's parents' intentions were good, and I find it refreshing to see parents who consider the idea that, hey... this is really no one else's business but our family's and Storm's at the end of the day. It's challenging the norm. After all, it really doesn't matter what strangers think about his sex and gender. He's the one who has to live with himself for the rest of his life; all that really matters is his acceptance and respect of who he is, not what others presume he is.

I agree fully with what you said. honestly i would have said it all myself if i had the capability of finding the right words.our society really needs to stop and think about what it teaches its children. a lot of kids today have no morals or values and no sense of respect be it for themselves or others, and that really sickens me. if i had acted the way children do today when i was growing up i would have gotten a spanking and would have been sent to the corner.

When i have kids of my own im going to raise them the same way i was raised. Which means i will teach my kids right and wrong and teach them be understanding of all races, people, lifestyle chioces and everything else, as well as how to respect themselves and others, and how to earn someones respect.  

[FauxZombie]

Probably will sound like a jerk for saying this - but every child is born "genderless"
Gender is merely what society creates - it's roles, expectations, unspoken rules of what is expected of that "gender" role.

But it is great that the family isn't going to force ideas of gender onto the child and let the child choose their own way in this world.
And of course there will people that will want to know what "gender" the child is and often relate gender to what sexual characteristic that individual has.  

[Sea Thrift]

FauxZombie

Probably will sound like a jerk for saying this - but every child is born "genderless"
Gender is merely what society creates - it's roles, expectations, unspoken rules of what is expected of that "gender" role.

But it is great that the family isn't going to force ideas of gender onto the child and let the child choose their own way in this world.
And of course there will people that will want to know what "gender" the child is and often relate gender to what sexual characteristic that individual has.

No, you're totally right. Every baby IS born genderless. I'm guessing that when Storm was said to not actually be genderless, it was after he had some years of gender discovery under his belt (he was five when his gender was revealed). But his parents still kept it between Storm, his siblings, and the parents themselves. But it was this choice that made Western society feel entitled to accuse Storm of being officially genderless lest his parents spill the beans. It's incredibly pretentious AND presumptuous.  

[FauxZombie]

Sea Thrift

FauxZombie

Probably will sound like a jerk for saying this - but every child is born "genderless"
Gender is merely what society creates - it's roles, expectations, unspoken rules of what is expected of that "gender" role.

But it is great that the family isn't going to force ideas of gender onto the child and let the child choose their own way in this world.
And of course there will people that will want to know what "gender" the child is and often relate gender to what sexual characteristic that individual has.

No, you're totally right. Every baby IS born genderless. I'm guessing that when Storm was said to not actually be genderless, it was after he had some years of gender discovery under his belt (he was five when his gender was revealed). But his parents still kept it between Storm, his siblings, and the parents themselves. But it was this choice that made Western society feel entitled to accuse Storm of being officially genderless lest his parents spill the beans. It's incredibly pretentious AND presumptuous.

Which is uncalled for, I mean hell, why should anyone have to really reveal their sex or gender to another person? I can only see a real reason for that for anyone you're romantically involved with but aside from that, if it's social, there are only two reasons I can see being the answer to that. One being that it would provide respect for the other person (IF they even ask the other person how they identify and which pronouns to use), however secondly it would be the need to know the other's gender identification so that the person can then figure out how to interact due to social norms and unspoken rules.
I much rather for a "genderless" situation growing up so that the child can find their own way and probably help help break down the barriers between the two definitive genders as well.
Perhaps that would make us a stronger society in a sense, but also cause a lot of uproar in "our" "traditional" ways.  

[Sea Thrift]

FauxZombie

Sea Thrift

FauxZombie

Probably will sound like a jerk for saying this - but every child is born "genderless"
Gender is merely what society creates - it's roles, expectations, unspoken rules of what is expected of that "gender" role.

But it is great that the family isn't going to force ideas of gender onto the child and let the child choose their own way in this world.
And of course there will people that will want to know what "gender" the child is and often relate gender to what sexual characteristic that individual has.

No, you're totally right. Every baby IS born genderless. I'm guessing that when Storm was said to not actually be genderless, it was after he had some years of gender discovery under his belt (he was five when his gender was revealed). But his parents still kept it between Storm, his siblings, and the parents themselves. But it was this choice that made Western society feel entitled to accuse Storm of being officially genderless lest his parents spill the beans. It's incredibly pretentious AND presumptuous.

Which is uncalled for, I mean hell, why should anyone have to really reveal their sex or gender to another person? I can only see a real reason for that for anyone you're romantically involved with but aside from that, if it's social, there are only two reasons I can see being the answer to that. One being that it would provide respect for the other person (IF they even ask the other person how they identify and which pronouns to use), however secondly it would be the need to know the other's gender identification so that the person can then figure out how to interact due to social norms and unspoken rules.
I much rather for a "genderless" situation growing up so that the child can find their own way and probably help help break down the barriers between the two definitive genders as well.
Perhaps that would make us a stronger society in a sense, but also cause a lot of uproar in "our" "traditional" ways.

I agree; not stamping a gender on a child before they can even begin to comprehend the real differences between just the binary genders is an ideal situation. Of course, you're going to have a lot of people accusing you of trying to turn the nation completely gender neutral/genderless. No joke--I watched this guy rant once about people like you and me, accusing us of not wanting men to be MEN and women to be WOMEN. Which is silly. Don't know about you, but I'm perfectly fine with cis persons identifying as cis all they want--and expressing those genders however they want.

What I fight for is equality; so that if a female wants to be genderless or trans* or nonbinary or cis, they can. Exactly the same for a male. If I have a child in the future, I will let them explore gender for as long as they need to so they discover their true self. I'm the parent, yes, but I'm no dictator of anyone's identity, especially not a child's.  

[FauxZombie]

Sea Thrift

I agree; not stamping a gender on a child before they can even begin to comprehend the real differences between just the binary genders is an ideal situation. Of course, you're going to have a lot of people accusing you of trying to turn the nation completely gender neutral/genderless. No joke--I watched this guy rant once about people like you and me, accusing us of not wanting men to be MEN and women to be WOMEN. Which is silly. Don't know about you, but I'm perfectly fine with cis persons identifying as cis all they want--and expressing those genders however they want.

What I fight for is equality; so that if a female wants to be genderless or trans* or nonbinary or cis, they can. Exactly the same for a male. If I have a child in the future, I will let them explore gender for as long as they need to so they discover their true self. I'm the parent, yes, but I'm no dictator of anyone's identity, especially not a child's.

I'm not against folks being hyper masculine/feminine but I do ask that there be recognition for those who are in between those two scales be given respect and not targeted just because they're not the stereotypical "man" or "woman" - for instance, I consider myself a feminine guy because I accept the fact that I have parts of my personality that is "feminine". Part of that may also be because I am a transman that I grew up knowing a "woman's" social norms but truth be told, I had a pretty neutral childhood growing up - the only pressures of conforming to a gender role/stereotype came from external family with only female pronouns enforced.
I have no problem with anyone identifying as they do - and I encourage "experimenting" or "crossing the line" of the two gender binaries. I think for some who do cross (depending on which way) there can be a shame that is formed because of the way we were raised (such as boys don't wear dresses, or girls can't wear tuxes) that it reflects back and we then have to treat it as if it were a sickness (depending on the individual of course).
But when you look at it... it's all just a matter of how society views and treats such situations. If a man wore a dress, there really is no harm in it - there could be many reasons as to why he would wear one. Maybe he is trans, maybe he likes not having to worry about pants, maybe he simply likes how he looks in a dress. But to others, they would perceive it as "degrading" or "inappropriate" or maybe trying to go through with some sort of "fantasy" (though could be the case, as well) - he is then instantly shot down for whatever reason and stabbed with words of assumptions (such as "gay"/"f**", "tranny") and assumed that he is not a man (if that is indeed how he may identify as).
I'm probably just starting to ramble here lol but of course this could go on and on and on.  

[Sea Thrift]

FauxZombie

I'm not against folks being hyper masculine/feminine but I do ask that there be recognition for those who are in between those two scales be given respect and not targeted just because they're not the stereotypical "man" or "woman" - for instance, I consider myself a feminine guy because I accept the fact that I have parts of my personality that is "feminine". Part of that may also be because I am a transman that I grew up knowing a "woman's" social norms but truth be told, I had a pretty neutral childhood growing up - the only pressures of conforming to a gender role/stereotype came from external family with only female pronouns enforced.
I have no problem with anyone identifying as they do - and I encourage "experimenting" or "crossing the line" of the two gender binaries. I think for some who do cross (depending on which way) there can be a shame that is formed because of the way we were raised (such as boys don't wear dresses, or girls can't wear tuxes) that it reflects back and we then have to treat it as if it were a sickness (depending on the individual of course).
But when you look at it... it's all just a matter of how society views and treats such situations. If a man wore a dress, there really is no harm in it - there could be many reasons as to why he would wear one. Maybe he is trans, maybe he likes not having to worry about pants, maybe he simply likes how he looks in a dress. But to others, they would perceive it as "degrading" or "inappropriate" or maybe trying to go through with some sort of "fantasy" (though could be the case, as well) - he is then instantly shot down for whatever reason and stabbed with words of assumptions (such as "gay"/"f**", "tranny") and assumed that he is not a man (if that is indeed how he may identify as).
I'm probably just starting to ramble here lol but of course this could go on and on and on.

Lol, nah it's cool. I ramble, too, and I personally think rambling is good. Stream of consciousness!

I hate the shaming that so many go through because of other people's ignorance. I used to be fringe ultraconservative Christian, no exaggeration. Gender roles were crucial in my life, but they also made my life a living hell because i was never a good enough woman. Too rebellious, too zealous, not willing to submit or completely unable to. Nothing was ever worth enough.

Left that life, first for obvious emotional reasons and later more rational ones. Imagine the identity crisis I went through, lol. It was bad enough that for over a decade I was fighting against my sexuality--I realized that without the gender rules of my former belief system, I had NO IDEA who or what I was. I was just a blank slate. Kind of scary at first, but then amazing because I finally had the freedom to explore my total lack of gender identity.

I'm still putting the pieces together, but one thing I did realize is this: the only thing that made me think I was a woman was my religion. Without my religion, I found I had no actual, intimate connection with being anything. Perhaps a bit feminine here, a little masculine there, and that's really it. It felt great to discover that. It felt right to finally know a part of who I was on my own, on my terms.

Right now, I identify as genderqueer, and I'm happy with that. Despite coming out on gaia, no one but one of my parents knows. I don't know how long it will be before I come out to others, but I'm hoping that those others will be understanding. I've already experienced erasure of my orientation. I know that I have many physical features that are very feminine (particularly my facial features), and I know people will use those to dictate to me what they believe my true gender is despite my own thoughts and/or efforts. It will be hard.  

[FauxZombie]

Sea Thrift

Lol, nah it's cool. I ramble, too, and I personally think rambling is good. Stream of consciousness!

I hate the shaming that so many go through because of other people's ignorance. I used to be fringe ultraconservative Christian, no exaggeration. Gender roles were crucial in my life, but they also made my life a living hell because i was never a good enough woman. Too rebellious, too zealous, not willing to submit or completely unable to. Nothing was ever worth enough.

Left that life, first for obvious emotional reasons and later more rational ones. Imagine the identity crisis I went through, lol. It was bad enough that for over a decade I was fighting against my sexuality--I realized that without the gender rules of my former belief system, I had NO IDEA who or what I was. I was just a blank slate. Kind of scary at first, but then amazing because I finally had the freedom to explore my total lack of gender identity.

I'm still putting the pieces together, but one thing I did realize is this: the only thing that made me think I was a woman was my religion. Without my religion, I found I had no actual, intimate connection with being anything. Perhaps a bit feminine here, a little masculine there, and that's really it. It felt great to discover that. It felt right to finally know a part of who I was on my own, on my terms.

Right now, I identify as genderqueer, and I'm happy with that. Despite coming out on gaia, no one but one of my parents knows. I don't know how long it will be before I come out to others, but I'm hoping that those others will be understanding. I've already experienced erasure of my orientation. I know that I have many physical features that are very feminine (particularly my facial features), and I know people will use those to dictate to me what they believe my true gender is despite my own thoughts and/or efforts. It will be hard.

It definitely does make you stop and think when you discard norms or religious values and reflect on yourself who you are as an individual.
I know it took me a long time to find acceptance of myself and see who I really was without the pressure of family, partners, and some friends. It allowed for me to piece together that I am happy (to a degree) with the body I was born with while still identifying as a man.
It doesn't help when you're stomped on and kicked into the gutter just cause you don't conform to a certain way of life. I can't even tell you how many times I was going to go to hell - and that was just based on the fact that I don't believe in a God. If there were - then it would be up to that "God" to judge me and no one else.
To your coming out statement, if it means anything at all... I accept you in whatever way you present yourself as. You are a human being irregardless of your identification and shouldn't be treated any differently.  

[Sea Thrift]

FauxZombie

Sea Thrift

Lol, nah it's cool. I ramble, too, and I personally think rambling is good. Stream of consciousness!

I hate the shaming that so many go through because of other people's ignorance. I used to be fringe ultraconservative Christian, no exaggeration. Gender roles were crucial in my life, but they also made my life a living hell because i was never a good enough woman. Too rebellious, too zealous, not willing to submit or completely unable to. Nothing was ever worth enough.

Left that life, first for obvious emotional reasons and later more rational ones. Imagine the identity crisis I went through, lol. It was bad enough that for over a decade I was fighting against my sexuality--I realized that without the gender rules of my former belief system, I had NO IDEA who or what I was. I was just a blank slate. Kind of scary at first, but then amazing because I finally had the freedom to explore my total lack of gender identity.

I'm still putting the pieces together, but one thing I did realize is this: the only thing that made me think I was a woman was my religion. Without my religion, I found I had no actual, intimate connection with being anything. Perhaps a bit feminine here, a little masculine there, and that's really it. It felt great to discover that. It felt right to finally know a part of who I was on my own, on my terms.

Right now, I identify as genderqueer, and I'm happy with that. Despite coming out on gaia, no one but one of my parents knows. I don't know how long it will be before I come out to others, but I'm hoping that those others will be understanding. I've already experienced erasure of my orientation. I know that I have many physical features that are very feminine (particularly my facial features), and I know people will use those to dictate to me what they believe my true gender is despite my own thoughts and/or efforts. It will be hard.

It definitely does make you stop and think when you discard norms or religious values and reflect on yourself who you are as an individual.
I know it took me a long time to find acceptance of myself and see who I really was without the pressure of family, partners, and some friends. It allowed for me to piece together that I am happy (to a degree) with the body I was born with while still identifying as a man.
It doesn't help when you're stomped on and kicked into the gutter just cause you don't conform to a certain way of life. I can't even tell you how many times I was going to go to hell - and that was just based on the fact that I don't believe in a God. If there were - then it would be up to that "God" to judge me and no one else.
To your coming out statement, if it means anything at all... I accept you in whatever way you present yourself as. You are a human being irregardless of your identification and shouldn't be treated any differently.

Every new presence of acceptance means the world, so thank you. You also have my acceptance. I've become a big trans* supporter during my own journey.