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 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:13 pm
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So, I am a Christian, but I have a strange question, I'm not sure how it came to my mind. If we have spirits that don't die (but rather, go to heaven or hell), why aren't we able to live in our bodies forever, without needing our hearts to beat, brain to function, etc. (barring the total destruction of the body, of course)? That way, we wouldn't need to sleep or eat, either! Okay, go for it!
(This question basically asks if the spirit is independent of the body)
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:58 am
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I'll address this in three parts:
Question #1:
Orizion why aren't we able to live in our bodies forever?
We can't live in our bodies forever because of sin (decay entered and has been affecting creation ever since then i.e. Genesis 2:17; Romans 8:21). I think God did intend for Adam and Eve to stay immortal forever in their bodies; hence, the tree of life placed in the middle of the garden (which God didn't forbid them to eat of; he forbade the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but the tree of life was acceptable to eat. Both were in the middle of the Garden, Genesis 2:9). They would have lived forever in their bodies if they chose differently; we're suppose to have bodies, we're human. Without a body, we're just a soul. I think that's why Adam became a living soul.
Quote: Genesis 2:7 (KJV) 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
But you're making an assumption for some reason that "eating" is not for immortal beings? After the resurrection, at which point we will be immortal like the angels (Luke 20:34-36), the tree of life is there too (Revelation 22:2,14).
Also, angels (and God?) did/do eat (Genesis 18:8; Psalm 78:24-25).
Quote: Genesis 18:1-8 (NIV) 1 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord,[a] do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.” “Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.” 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “ get three seahs of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.” 7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree. Footnotes: a. Genesis 18:3 Or eyes, Lord
Quote: Psalm 78:24-25 (NIV) 24 he rained down manna for the people to eat, he gave them the grain of heaven. 25 Human beings ate the bread of angels; he sent them all the food they could eat.
So if Jesus says we will be immortal like the angels in heaven (who apparently eat), then we will be eating too (I don't know about sleeping though). What I can say for sure, the body is meant for this plane of existence. For a soul to participate on earth, in earthly activities, you need a body (thus, demons possessing bodies of either animals or humans [Matthew 8:28-32]; also why souls will be resurrected out of the grave/realm of the dead to participate in Jesus' 1000-year reign at his return to the earth (read Revelation 20 for info on the two resurrections).
I'm sure if God wanted to, he could have made us like plants who don't need organs or "sleep", but I question if plants are even alive/living.
Quote: Deuteronomy 12:23 (KJV) 23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.
Alive = blood pumping in your veins. But it doesn't mean that just because you die / are out of a body whilst you wait in the realm of the dead, that you're not aware. The martyred souls definitely have awareness without a body.
Quote: Revelation 6:9-10 (KJV) 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
That said, every living thing on earth needs certain systems in place in order to operate a carnal body, even if the creature doesn't have a soul (i.e. animals—they do have spirit, the breath of life, but there's no evidence that they have a soul; yet they eat and sleep like us too). Evidence that they do not have a soul: during the flood, it says only 8 souls were saved on the ark (what does that mean for the seven pairs of every clean animal who got saved aboard the ship too? plus the pair of every unclean animal?).
Quote: 1 Peter 3:20 (KJV) 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Quote: Genesis 7:1-2 (NIV) The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate,
The animals on the ark apparently do not have souls. Elsewhere, however, we are told they do have spirit (the animating breath of life, Ecclesiastes 3:20-21). Ergo, "bodily functions" have nothing to do with whether you have a soul, whether you're immortal (like the angels) or not.
Question #2:
Orizion [...] needing our hearts to beat, brain to function, etc. (barring the total destruction of the body, of course)? That way, we wouldn't need to sleep or eat, either!
I think a lot of our bodily functions (and their complexity) are the evidence—aside from divine revelation—that a Creator exists. Something so complex needs to have a designer. And like I previously addressed, eating is still a thing done by immortal creatures like angels. They eat manna in heaven, and ate milk, bread, curds and meat on earth.
Question #3:
Orizion (This question basically asks if the spirit is independent of the body)
Yes.
Quote: Ecclesiastes 12:7 (NIV) 7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Quote: 1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NIV) May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We are a soul which was given a body, animated by spirit (the breath of God). I arrived at this conclusion because if we are made up of three parts (body, spirit, soul) and the body turns back to dust (body, spirit, soul), while the breath/spirit goes back to God (body, spirit, soul), that leaves the soul. That is carried to the realm of the dead by angels.
Quote: Luke 16:22 (NIV) 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
Which brings me to where souls go after death. God either:
(A) has the souls organized in the realm of the dead (She'ol/the grave/Hades/ and sometimes Hell [depending on the greek or hebrew word], are all synonymous, same place, to which both the righteous and wicked go upon dying, though separated - Job 3:10-19; Luke 16:19-31)
or
(B) He has them translated without dying, taken up to the Heavens (like Enoch, Elijah—Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11-12—and also like Jesus after his resurrection; at his ascension he went "up" like Enoch and Elijah, after spending 40 days demonstrating he was still alive, despite going through the crucifixion (Acts 1:3-11).
Conclusion: concerning the title of this topic, "a question about eternity", the "afterlife" doesn't require a body, but after the "afterlife" (resurrection) you do need one because you'll be on a material planet. & Immortal creatures do eat.
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:15 am
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Thank you always for the wonderful explanation and attached Bible verses heart
real eyes realize (i.e. animals—they do have spirit, the breath of life, but there's no evidence that they have a soul; yet they eat and sleep like us too). Evidence that they do not have a soul: during the flood, it says only 8 souls were saved on the ark (what does that mean for the seven pairs of every clean animal who got saved aboard the ship too? plus the pair of every unclean animal?). The animals on the ark apparently do not have souls. Elsewhere, however, we are told they do have spirit (the animating breath of life, Ecclesiastes 3:20-21). Ergo, "bodily functions" have nothing to do with whether you have a soul, whether you're immortal (like the angels) or not. We are a soul which was given a body, animated by spirit (the breath of God). I arrived at this conclusion because if we are made up of three parts (body, spirit, soul) and the body turns back to dust ( body, spirit, soul), while the breath/spirit goes back to God (body, spirit, soul), that leaves the soul. That is carried to the realm of the dead by angels.
I would like clarification on this matter.
I have always thought that animals have soul and body but not spirit?
Soul is the emotion, feeling, ability to think. Soul is not born again but we need to purify it constantly.
Spirit is from God and hence we are able to worship and understand God because of the Holy Spirit in us. Spirit are born again.
Quoted from http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/soul_spirit.php
"We are a spirit being, we live in a body and we possess a soul. The real person inside of us is our spirit. Our soul consists of our mind, will and emotions. Our bodies are obviously what we live in while we are here on earth. How did demonic spirits vex and possess (control) people in the Bible? It was through their souls (minds, as in mental illness and insanity), and their bodies (as in the woman who had the spirit of infirmity)."
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:38 am
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Meili Kyumee Youichi Thank you always for the wonderful explanation and attached Bible verses heart real eyes realize (i.e. animals—they do have spirit, the breath of life, but there's no evidence that they have a soul; yet they eat and sleep like us too). Evidence that they do not have a soul: during the flood, it says only 8 souls were saved on the ark (what does that mean for the seven pairs of every clean animal who got saved aboard the ship too? plus the pair of every unclean animal?). The animals on the ark apparently do not have souls. Elsewhere, however, we are told they do have spirit (the animating breath of life, Ecclesiastes 3:20-21). Ergo, "bodily functions" have nothing to do with whether you have a soul, whether you're immortal (like the angels) or not. We are a soul which was given a body, animated by spirit (the breath of God). I arrived at this conclusion because if we are made up of three parts (body, spirit, soul) and the body turns back to dust ( body, spirit, soul), while the breath/spirit goes back to God (body, spirit, soul), that leaves the soul. That is carried to the realm of the dead by angels. I would like clarification on this matter. I have always thought that animals have soul and body but not spirit? Soul is the emotion, feeling, ability to think. Soul is not born again but we need to purify it constantly. Spirit is from God and hence we are able to worship and understand God because of the Holy Spirit in us. Spirit are born again. Quoted from http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/soul_spirit.php"We are a spirit being, we live in a body and we possess a soul. The real person inside of us is our spirit. Our soul consists of our mind, will and emotions. Our bodies are obviously what we live in while we are here on earth. How did demonic spirits vex and possess (control) people in the Bible? It was through their souls (minds, as in mental illness and insanity), and their bodies (as in the woman who had the spirit of infirmity)."
I've seen people switch up "soul" and "spirit" interchangeably; apparently it is a difficult thing to distinguish (at least Hebrews 4:12 leads me to believe that, "For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.")
I think every aspect of our being is suppose to be born-again, not just spirit but soul and body. The body will be "born-again" at the resurrection (transformed into something immortal, a new creation), the soul and spirit transformation happens now.
That's why Paul can say the new creation is here yet at the same time talk about a new body off in the future that awaits us, and John saying that what we will be is not yet known (body transformation).
Quote: 2 Corinthians 5:17 (NIV) 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! Footnotes: a. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Or Christ, that person is a new creation.
Quote: 1 John 3:2 (KJV) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And Paul talking about the new body in the future (despite claiming that the new creation is already here):
Quote: 1 Corinthians 15:35-52 (NIV) 35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. 42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 15:45 Gen. 2:7
1 Corinthians 15:49 Some early manuscripts so let us
side note: to clarify, Paul is talking about a literal resurrection from the dead; I would recommend reading the whole chapter if anyone has doubts.
We are given both a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:26-27) [aside from the Holy Spirit, it seems, or maybe I'm reading that incorrectly] and a new mind (Ephesians 4:23; Romans 12:2). If the soul is the psyche/mind, that means the soul is born-again/transformed too.
Quote: Ezekiel 36:26-27 (NIV) 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
Quote: Romans 12:2 (NIV) 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Quote: Ephesians 4:23 (NIV) 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds;
But it is definitely spirit that animals have, not a soul.
First to establish some definitions: "breath" of God = spirit.
Quote: Job 32:8 (NIV) 8 But it is the spirit[a] in a person, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding. Footnotes: a. Job 32:8 Or Spirit; also in verse 18
Quote: Job 33:4 (NIV) The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Animals have the "breath" of God too, thus have spirit:
Quote: Genesis 1:30 (NIV) And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
But as I showed with Peter, the ones mentioned as having souls are the 8 humans on the ark. |
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Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:19 am
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Orizion Thank you very much for the reply, it was very insightful. Upon reading what happens to us upon death, that made me think of another question. If Jesus' sacrifice was enough to get us back to a perfect relationship with our Father, why can't the souls/spirits (whichever it is, I'm not sure, sorry) of us believers go to heaven to be with Jesus rather than going to Sheol/Hades (even if it is "Abraham's bosom." Sorry if I misunderstood this)? Thanks again. (I know that there's a difference between a place for the wicked dead to go and the righteous as seen in Luke 16:19-31, but that was before Christ's resurrection)
What leads me to believe that we still go to She'ol, even after Jesus' sacrifice, is how apostle John and apostle Paul prophesy that both the righteous and the wicked will come out of their graves (including the souls of those who believed in Jesus; thus, they were in the realm of the dead too). Verses: Acts 24:15; John 5:28-29; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16.
Acts 24:15 (NIV)
15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
John 5:28-29 (NIV)
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (NIV)
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
As for a more profound reason as to "why" he has chosen to make things so, I don't know. But it seems like in order to get to "heaven" (or to go to the place Enoch and Elijah went to without dying, "up" somewhere, where Jesus ascended to), you need to be alive and/or resurrected. If you're dead though, it's not the same place as "heaven". Note: even after the resurrection that awaits believers, we're not going to that "heaven" place. Jesus is reigning here for 1000 years. Though I think after the 1000 years and the Great White Throne judgment, we will be living with, not just Jesus, but the Father as well. I don't know whether to consider that heaven or not, since it does talk about a new earth and new heavens (skies), but the tree of life is back, so paradise is back (thus...heaven?).
For some reason or another, he's waiting to resurrect the rest of us all together (minus the mass group of holy people who resurrected with Jesus in Matthew 27:51-53; they seem to be part of the "first fruits" offering that Jesus is likened to in 1 Corinthians 15:20, 23. Side note: the firstfruits offering is/was a part of the holy appointed festivals which prophetically spoke, and still speak, about what Jesus was going to do; the details of those holy feasts can be found in Leviticus 23. Though clearly, everything about Mosaic law is prophetic about Jesus in some way, not just the 7 appointed times/holy convocations of Leviticus 23, but other aspects of the law as well /end side note, lol). So, essentially, we go to She'ol instead of directly to wherever Enoch, Elijah, Jesus is, because we need to be resurrected, thus alive, to be there—not dead. And Paul refers to the dead in Christ who will be resurrected (not alive/resurrected right now), and they will rise first, before the living believers get transformed into their immortal, heavenly bodies (bodies which Paul described in 1 Corinthians 15).
I also wonder at times if there have been other special cases like Enoch and Elijah who don't have to wait for the resurrection and are already there with him. But it seems like, generally-speaking and special cases aside, we wait in She'ol, even if we believed in Jesus.
edit: though there does seem to be some connection to God while we're away from a body.
2 Corinthians 5:1-9 (NIV)
5 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
And like I quoted before, the martyrs do call out to God to deal out vengeance for their shed blood (thus are communicating with him in death). I'm not really sure how that connection works. Verse 8 of 2 Cor 5 is interesting to consider in all this—not that it contradicts the previous verses up to that point who are describing us being clothed with our heavenly body. So it must mean away from this body, or with the Lord in our heavenly body (yet it's not one we receive in death, but one we wait for, one we will receive at our resurrection). Is he saying we're at home with the Lord before getting dressed in the heavenly body, or after? Not too clear on that. But the one that sounds cohesive to me is "after" being clothed in our immortal, heavenly body (especially with the comment that, and I paraphrase, we prefer being transformed instead of having to die and then be clothed with the heavenly body [verse 4]. And just the term itself, "heavenly" body, thus alive, not dead). |
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Posted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:40 am
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Orizion Okay, I see. Thank you again. Enoch and Elijah are indeed the only people who have went to heaven without dying. I think (but could be wrong) their bodies will probably be transformed to immortal ones with the living humans at the resurrection of the righteous (1 Thessalonians 4:17; rather than being transformed with those who fell asleep in Christ [1 Thessalonians 4:16b]), which means that, in a sense, they are still waiting for the resurrection, unlike those mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:20-23. Anyways, one last question: If a soul or spirit eats food, then does the soul(/spirit) have internal organs that digest food like the physical body? (Which also means having to go to the bathroom)
I don't think the soul/spirit is the one that eats. The angels must have a celestial/heavenly body too like the ones that await us. Yet, even though angels are described as eating (both on earth and in heaven, like I quoted from Genesis and is hinted at in Psalms), it doesn't really describe them going to the bathroom (unless I just haven't noticed those verses) sweatdrop . But it doesn't negate the possibility that they do.
It seems like everything in creation that takes in energy will produce waste/by-product of some kind which later serves to benefit something else in creation (i.e. bacteria producing lactic acid which aids human digestion; sperm whales produce ambergris which can be used as an ingredient in perfume-making; I don't know about human poop aside from decomposers feasting on it, lol. Urea produced in mammals also has various functions). Maybe angel poop/pee benefits some other part of creation—assuming they poop/pee. xp |
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