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 Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:43 pm
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Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:36 am
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edited: to fix bbcode
The problem is the assumptions people make when they see the word "hell". There are at least three Greek words that all get translated as "hell", but they are entirely different places.
For example, "Tartarus" is where the angels are imprisoned (2 Peter 2:4) and it's translated as "hell".
"Gehenna" is in reference to the lake of fire (i.e. used in Matthew 5:29, 30; I linked to an interlinear so you can see the Greek, but the verses say, "If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." NIV); it uses "hell" too yet the Greek says "Gehenna".
Gehenna is a place one is thrown into while still alive (or after being resurrected, thus also alive) for example the beast and false prophet are thrown in alive (Revelation 19:20); the rest of humanity is thrown in after their resurrection and judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). That's the place prepared for the devil and his angels (which Jesus mentioned in Matthew 25:41). Remember, the devil's angels are waiting in Tartarus right now in chains/imprisoned. But the devil is still on earth, as we see in the book of Job, going to and fro across the earth (Job 1:7), he's the prince of this world (John 12:31), "god of this age" (2 Corinthians 4:4), and he gets thrown into the lake of fire/Gehenna in Revelation 20:10, after Jesus' 1000 year reign.
"Hades" is the place both the righteous and wicked go to after death (despite having its compartments/separation/chasm) as they wait for their resurrection. It's the equivalent of "Sheol" in Hebrew, the grave, the realm of the dead, spoken about in the Old Testament. It's used in Matthew 11:23 and Revelation 20:14, but also translated as "hell". Jesus did go to Sheol/Hades (thus "hell"), like everyone else, but he didn't stay there; his body didn't see decay as prophesied in the Psalms (16:10). As you know, after three days he resurrects.
Knowing that, when reading the apostle's creed, it's not really saying anything different in lines 4-5.
Apostles' Creed
1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
5. The third day he rose again from the dead:
6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:
9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
10. The forgiveness of sins:
1l. The resurrection of the body:
12. And the life everlasting. Amen.
http://www.ccel.org/creeds/apostles.creed.html
I'm not much of a fan of creeds. They leave out details that people end up forgetting if they spend most of their time reading such things instead of scripture (for example, that after he resurrected, Jesus spent 40 days with his disciples before ascending, showing that he was still alive, teaching and even eating with them; read Acts 1 for more details. Also how "communion" is not a ritual, but as scripture depicts: sharing food, being around, communicating with other believers in friendliness).
As for 1 Peter 3:18-20, I'll quote the KJV and NIV for comparison:
Quote: 1 Peter 3:18-20 (KJV) 18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Quote: 1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV) 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, Footnotes: a. 1 Peter 3:19 Or but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also
You didn't say it, but I sense that you're operating off this statement which often gets passed around, "Jesus preached to souls in hell". Neither the creed, nor the verses themselves say this. It says after he was quickened in the spirit/made alive, then he want to preach to the imprisoned spirits. I don't know with 100% certainty who those spirits are, whether they're humans still in bondage to sin on earth nvm, it's strictly related to Noah's time (or maybe the human spirits of Noah's time who didn't believe, though I doubt this because we don't get second chances after death; if you don't believe in YHWH's prophets, you won't believe Jesus either) or, what I'm leaning towards, if it's the disobedient non-human spirits who interacted with mankind during Noah's time (the fallen angels now held in bondage/chains/prison, referenced in 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6) to boast or proclaim "I win; you lose". I'm not 100% clear on who those spirits are, though I'm heavily leaning towards the "imprisoned angels" interpretation. Since I referenced two verses that are right next to each other, let me just quote it:
Quote: 2 Peter 2:4-5 (NIV) 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b ] to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; Footnotes: a. 2 Peter 2:4 Greek Tartarus b. 2 Peter 2:4 Some manuscripts in gloomy dungeons
That said, whatever it was about post-resurrection Jesus, body-wise, there was a ghostly/spirit-like aspect to his "traveling", despite having a tangible body you could touch (and that clearly ate food). It seems like he could pass through walls.
Quote: John 20:26-27 (NIV) 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Quote: Luke 24:36-43 (NIV) 36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” 40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.
Perhaps that allowed him, as a living person, to interact on whatever dimension, wherever those spirits are at, yet still at the same time interacting on this plane? I dunno, I'm getting into speculative territory. But since he did come as a human, he did have to go to She'ol first and then be resurrected; that's just the order of things. The angels take you there (Luke 16:22), there's no avoiding it, good or bad, we all go to the realm of the dead/Sheol/Hades upon death, like the rich man and Lazarus.
edit: oh about the "Harrowing of Hell", this is the first time I ever hear that phrase or concept. I can't speak for or against it. Sounds interesting though, and possible, considering many holy people resurrected with Jesus too (though accepted canon never assigns them an identity).
Wikipedia The Greek wording in the Apostles' Creed is κατελθόντα εἰς τὰ κατώτατα, ("katelthonta eis ta katôtata" ), and in Latin descendit ad inferos. The Greek τὰ κατώτατα (ta katôtata,"the lowest" ) and the Latin inferos ("those below" ) may also be translated as "underworld", "netherworld", or "abode of the dead." The word "harrow" comes from the Old English hergian meaning to harry or despoil and is seen in the homilies of Aelfric, c. 1000.[6] The term Harrowing of Hell refers not merely to the idea that Christ descended into Hell, as in the Creed, but to the rich tradition that developed later, asserting that he triumphed over inferos, releasing Hell's captives, particularly Adam and Eve, and the righteous men and women of the Old Testament period.
Matthew Matthew 27:52-53 (NIV) 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people. Footnotes: a. Matthew 27:53 Or tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they |
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:58 pm
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Mixy-Chan I think there is a lot of information there that i just can't seem to interrupt right now. As I was researching this topic I read a comment someone posted that was quite interesting to think about.
We should define then, "what is the punishment that we deserve"? second death, right? In that respect, their line of reasoning does make sense: if Jesus endured something in our place so we do not have to, then he must've been cast into the lake of fire / Gehenna (thus experienced the second death—what we deserve, not just simply waited in Hades/She'ol for his resurrection like everyone else does).
But I also know that the punishment Jesus endured included certain curses, which he withstood on the cross, on behalf of Israel (a curse they were suppose to endure for being an unfaithful/adulterous spouse to YHWH by pursuing other Idols/gods) such as drinking the bitter water causing their thigh to rot/womb to miscarry and the abdomen to swell if they had been adulterous (Numbers 5:16-31)—which did indeed happen to Jesus on the cross: he did take the bitter drink/cup and his abdomen did swell with water, water which came gushing out once the soldiers pierced his side with a spear (John 19:34).
But putting aside what the full punishment actually entails (because I don't know if I have seen the full extent of every curse he endured from the law so Israel would not have to suffer through it themselves): if it is true that he descended into Gehenna and not just simply Hades, then we must ask ourselves, "is it necessary for him to spend an eternity in the lake of fire to sufficiently pay off our iniquity?", If so, if it is necessary, he's obviously not there now; so did he already spend an eternity in the lake of fire? because that's what awaits people. They're never coming back out. People will be in the lake of fire (Gehenna) forever—with the devil and the false prophet—after judgment day.
Quote: Revelation 20:13-14 (KJV) 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Quote: Revelation 20:13-14 (NIV) 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
interesting to note: the beast and false prophet were thrown into the lake before judgment day (comparing Revelation 19:20 with Revelation 20:7-10).
If not, if going through the second death in and of itself was the extent (after being tortured and persecuted in life of course) to sufficiently be a scapegoat in every regard (not just in providing the adequate atonement for our sins by his shed blood, but also in going through the second death so we don't have to), without needing to stay there for eternity, then there's no problem going with that interpretation of events (that he descended to Gehenna instead of Hades).
Where I could see a problem presenting itself is with verse 10 in Psalm 16. It prophesied him going into She'ol specifically (http://biblehub.com/text/psalms/16-10.htm), thus "Hades", not "Gehenna". Unless, the Old Testament is using She'ol to generally refer to the underworld and not the specific compartments it contains? (which now that I think about it, that's how the book of Enoch refers to it all, simply as "She'ol" despite the divisions).
Here's how the ancient world viewed the different..er..dimensions? realms? (I don't know what to call it).
I'm not sure what part represents Gehenna/the lake of fire. Unless the lake of fire / lake of sulfur, brimstone / everlasting fire is not a part of the underworld itself...? I see the ocean or "sea" that Revelation 20:13-14 mentions. I see Tartarus, I see Hades, but I don't see Gehenna/the Lake of Fire depicted there. And when I think of it, the Old Testament reference to unquenchable fire at end times sounds a bit earthly instead of "other-worldly":
Quote: Isaiah 66:22-24 (NIV) 22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
Just for brainstorming purposes and to rule this out (if we can?): let's consider the possibility that yes, he only went to the "Hades" part of She'ol: that possibility truly doesn't seem very "just" in light of all this; we get to pass over the second death without anyone having paid for it in the sense of going through it in our place. The "second death" interpretation does make more sense.
Some interesting verses to consider in all this:
Quote: Ephesians 4:8-10 (NIV) 8 This is why it[a] says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
Footnotes:
a. Ephesians 4:8 Or God
b. Ephesians 4:8 Psalm 68:18
c. Ephesians 4:9 Or the depths of the earth
Quote: Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Not sure if the captives/captivity is in reference to the holy people that resurrected with him (I assume they ascended with him later on too) thus supporting the "Harrowing of Hell" concept.
But what I am sure of: wherever Jesus went upon death, it was definitely the underworld/abode of the dead, into the lowest depths of the earth, and it doesn't sound like a description of the cave his body was placed in for burial, but like talk of dimensions (if he's descending/ascending into all areas of the universe). Maybe the diagrams I chose aren't the most accurate and Gehenna is actually somewhere there in the underworld (aside from being a garbage dump on earth lol—or is that actually it? the same valley used to burn garbage is where the devil and false prophet are going to be for all time? or their remains will be there for all time? or the earthly garbage dump is just a picture for the one in the heavens/other realms question ). But, like I quoted from Isaiah, the eternal fire during his reign on earth sounds like just that: earthly, especially if mankind will be able to see them. The lake of fire concept still perplexes me, clearly. So I guess if we can narrow down 100% whether Jesus went through the second death or not, then we can know whether he just went to Hades or if the "hell" is in reference to the other places also translated as hell.
@Spirit Reborn
Spirit Reborn What is Hades like? Does the Bible go into further detail of what is experienced there or how it looks visually? I ask because ..my dad ..having past away this year on August, I just want to know what sort of place Hades is and what he may be experiencing/seeing. :3
The most detailed description of Hades, in canon, would have to be the one Jesus gave in Luke 16:19-31: whatever we experience, I think it's directly related to the injustice we endured on earth, or injustice we dealt out to others (by omission or commission; if it was within our power to alleviate another, but chose not to, that's still unjust and unmerciful; letting it happen is equally as bad as being the one who inflicted injustice/abuse upon them; so, we're going to reap in death what we sowed in life as we wait for the resurrection—as was the case for the rich man and why he's in torment without alleviation, but Lazarus is being comforted because he endured a lot of injustice. As far as how that visually manifests I'm not sure at all aside from the chasm and a separation between the souls/spirits. The following is just speculation on my part, but if the soul is just the mind, maybe it's just the conscience paying the person back, recalling all the evil it did but putting you as the object who received the evil, making the person endure a dose of their own medicine? hence why they were told to pay attention to Moses and the prophets to avoid it? and why Jesus guarantees those who are poor and suffering now will receive comfort and satisfaction in the future in heaven/the other realm, up or down, wherever it is [Luke 6:20-26] ?).
As far as the Old Testament goes, here's a keyword search in a version that doesn't translate "She'ol", so it's easier to see without having to resort to an interlinear/concordance (though you could do that if you want):
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?version=CJB&search=Sh’ol&searchtype=all&language1=en&spanbegin=1&spanend=73
She'ol in general is described as a place of darkness, deep depths, a pit, (so like an abyss), some translations even associate "chaos" with space (i.e. Job 26:7), and She'ol is a place which contains "ghosts"/spirits, at times coming to greet the new arrival. Sheol is always described as "down" somewhere. Some people are of the view that it's just describing a graveyard, but the language itself makes a distinction between a a burying place / a sepulchre vs. going down to She'ol (i.e. using the Hebrew word "qeber" (← links to the concordance) instead of She'ol if that's what they're trying to get across).
Note: for the keyword search I linked to, the CJB version has chosen to write in the word "Sh'ol" into the New Testament, even when the Greek word Hades does not appear in the actual manuscript (though it's implied, like they chose to do in Romans 10:7; but for the record, the NT being written in Greek means "Sh'ol" shouldn't be found up in the NT books at all, lol; Sheol is a Hebrew word), so just a heads up. For accuracy, here are the verses that actually contain the word She'ol in Hebrew, strictly, using the concordance (make sure to scroll down once you click on it): http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7585&t=KJV
But I'll still offer up both links. The CJB version putting "Sh'ol" has its pro's: seeing the word un-translated helps (at least me) to see the consistency more easily then having it switched up from verse to verse as "grave", "pit", "hell", "realm of the dead", etc...
Outside of canon, the most descriptive text I've read of Sheol/the underworld is the passage in the Book of Enoch, chapter 22: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe025.htm |
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