|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:17 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:43 pm
 |
|
|
|
I usually agree with AiG, but certain points were incorrect:
Quote: Then I remind them that it wasn’t the tree that was sin but the hearts of those who used them to honor false gods. If they had done it to honor God then the outcome would have been different.
False. We have at least two accounts that speak contrary to this claim:
(1) Aaron
(2) King Jeroboam
They did not honor a false god; they identified the calves with the God who led their ancestors out of Egypt (YHWH). By this person's rationalization, all that matters is: remember YHWH leading them out of Egypt. So it wouldn't be an issue for the Israelites to worship the true god using images to represent their God, a practice the pagans/gentile nations used to worship their "gods", right? Wrong. The outcome: the whole nation was led into sin and aroused YHWH's anger.
Exodus 32:1-8
When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods[a] who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”
2 Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” 3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods,[b Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”
5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.” 6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.
7 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’
Footnotes:
a. Exodus 32:1 Or a god; also in verses 23 and 31
b. Exodus 32:4 Or This is your god; also in verse 8
Deuteronomy 9:8-12 (NIV)
8 At Horeb you aroused the Lord’s wrath so that he was angry enough to destroy you. 9 When I went up on the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant that the Lord had made with you, I stayed on the mountain forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water. 10 The Lord gave me two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God. On them were all the commandments the Lord proclaimed to you on the mountain out of the fire, on the day of the assembly.
11 At the end of the forty days and forty nights, the Lord gave me the two stone tablets, the tablets of the covenant. 12 Then the Lord told me, “Go down from here at once, because your people whom you brought out of Egypt have become corrupt. They have turned away quickly from what I commanded them and have made an idol for themselves.”
1 Kings 12:25-33 (NIV)
25 Then Jeroboam fortified Shechem in the hill country of Ephraim and lived there. From there he went out and built up Peniel.[a]
26 Jeroboam thought to himself, “The kingdom will now likely revert to the house of David. 27 If these people go up to offer sacrifices at the temple of the Lord in Jerusalem, they will again give their allegiance to their lord, Rehoboam king of Judah. They will kill me and return to King Rehoboam.”
28 After seeking advice, the king made two golden calves. He said to the people, “It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.” 29 One he set up in Bethel, and the other in Dan. 30 And this thing became a sin; the people came to worship the one at Bethel and went as far as Dan to worship the other.[b ]
31 Jeroboam built shrines on high places and appointed priests from all sorts of people, even though they were not Levites. 32 He instituted a festival on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, like the festival held in Judah, and offered sacrifices on the altar. This he did in Bethel, sacrificing to the calves he had made. And at Bethel he also installed priests at the high places he had made. 33 On the fifteenth day of the eighth month, a month of his own choosing, he offered sacrifices on the altar he had built at Bethel. So he instituted the festival for the Israelites and went up to the altar to make offerings.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Kings 12:25 Hebrew Penuel, a variant of Peniel
b. 1 Kings 12:30 Probable reading of the original Hebrew text; Masoretic Text people went to the one as far as Dan
1 Kings 16:26 (NIV)
He followed completely the ways of Jeroboam son of Nebat, committing the same sin Jeroboam had caused Israel to commit, so that they aroused the anger of the Lord, the God of Israel, by their worthless idols.
In like fashion, I doubt Our Heavenly Father views things like "the nativity scene" as holy; he told us not to make any image of him. The Israelites didn't see the form of anything when God spoke to them out of the fire...
Deuteronomy 4:12, 15-18 (NIV)
12 Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.
[...]
15 You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below.
Jesus in the flesh was suppose to be God's image (Colossians 1:15), and so are we if we're being conformed to his image. It's not suppose to be anything we construct with our hands.
Quote: According to Archbishop Ussher, Christ was born around 4 BC. What day was Jesus born? We don’t know nor does Scripture reveal this date. So the date selected as Christmas (December 25 by the Gregorian calendar) was probably not the date Jesus was born (see Feedback: The Origin of Christmas). The issue though isn’t about the actual date but about taking time to remember Christ’s entrance into the world.
Both King Jeroboam and Aaron arbitrarily chose a date of their own liking to worship YHWH, in remembrance of something he did (as I quoted in the passages above). This wasn't acceptable.
This doesn't apply to traditions that aren't honoring something our God did: in contrast, out of the traditions that I know of, Purim and Hannukah for example aren't really celebrating YHWH, but commemorating how the Israelites as a people dedicated themselves to him—not celebrating something he did. (Though I don't celebrate them either, just providing an example of man-made traditions that would be alright since they neither [a] contradict the law nor commemorate something God did on a date we chose). To celebrate God, and the things he has done (and will do), he gave us the dates in Leviticus 23.
Quote: If someone honors God with a decorated tree (as opposed to false gods) then how can it be sinful?
The same way it is sinful to pray like the pagans. Obviously, we ARE praying to the true, living God—unlike the pagans. Yet, we're still told to not pray like them.
Matthew 6:7-8 (NIV)
7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Our Heavenly Father outright told us not to worship him in pagan ways. It sounds like the author of this particular article is using his own reasoning and rationalization instead of the simple obedience found in the scriptures.
Deuteronomy 12:2-4 (NIV)
2 Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains, on the hills and under every spreading tree, where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. 3 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.
4 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way.
Deuteronomy 12:29-32 (NIV)
29 The Lord your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.[a]
Footnotes:
a. Deuteronomy 12:32 In Hebrew texts this verse (12:32) is numbered 13:1.
It's not just about sacrificing your children to Moloch and idolatry if even prayer is suppose to be holy/set-apart to YHWH, praying in a way he told us to pray, not a way the pagans pray. If we want to commemorate something he did or will do, he already gave us dates for that on his calendar/appointed times. I almost can't believe the boldness people have approaching our Holy God, dedicating pagan traditions to him, when he has told us to not worship him in their way or pray to him in their way. It shouldn't be done.
Also, this isn't the biggest issue, but it is misleading to call what's written in the bible as "the first Christmas"; no one in the bible refers to it that way. Fulfilled prophecies? sure. Our messiah? sure. But that term didn't come into existence until the Catholic Church and the term, in and of itself, is so backwards and dishonest: if we're remembering his birth, why call it Christ's mass? (Christ's death?). It would be truthful if they instead called the passover by the term "Christmas" / Christ's death, seeing as that's the day he actually died. If they did that, "Christmas" would actually fall on a date commemorating what he did tell us to remember (his death). But no, they don't even adhere to that; Christ's mass / Christ's death is taking place in the winter, instead of in spring—unlike Jesus and his disciples, who did keep the last supper around, if not on, passover, thus spring.
Ultimately, these traditions do not adhere to scripture / the full truth of what the scriptures convey. If Jesus didn't tolerate this from the Pharisees, he will not tolerate it from us.
Quote: Mark 7:8-9 (NIV) 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.” 9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[a] your own traditions! Footnotes: a. Mark 7:9 Some manuscripts set up
Those "commands of God" that we're setting aside today are the ones instructing us to not worship him (including not praying to him) in pagan ways. I say "we", but really I'm alluding to the Catholic traditions my grandparents and mother's generation grew up with. This article is grasping at straws. Traditions that contradict commands should be done away with.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:13 pm
|
|
|
 |
real eyes realize I usually agree with AiG, but certain points were incorrect: Quote: Then I remind them that it wasn’t the tree that was sin but the hearts of those who used them to honor false gods. If they had done it to honor God then the outcome would have been different. False. We have at least two accounts that speak contrary to this claim: (1) Aaron (2) King Jeroboam They did not honor a false god; they identified the calves with the God who led their ancestors out of Egypt (YHWH). By this person's rationalization, all that matters is: remember YHWH leading them out of Egypt. So it wouldn't be an issue for the Israelites to worship the true god using images to represent their God, a practice the pagans/gentile nations used to worship their "gods", right? Wrong. The outcome: the whole nation was led into sin and aroused YHWH's anger. Exodus 32:1-8
When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods[a] who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”
2 Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” 3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods,[b Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”
5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.” 6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.
7 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’
Footnotes:
a. Exodus 32:1 Or a god; also in verses 23 and 31
b. Exodus 32:4 Or This is your god; also in verse 8
Deuteronomy 9:8-12 (NIV)
8 At Horeb you aroused the Lord’s wrath so that he was angry enough to destroy you. 9 When I went up on the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant that the Lord had made with you, I stayed on the mountain forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water. 10 The Lord gave me two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God. On them were all the commandments the Lord proclaimed to you on the mountain out of the fire, on the day of the assembly.
11 At the end of the forty days and forty nights, the Lord gave me the two stone tablets, the tablets of the covenant. 12 Then the Lord told me, “Go down from here at once, because your people whom you brought out of Egypt have become corrupt. They have turned away quickly from what I commanded them and have made an idol for themselves.”
1 Kings 12:25-33 (NIV)
25 Then Jeroboam fortified Shechem in the hill country of Ephraim and lived there. From there he went out and built up Peniel.[a]
26 Jeroboam thought to himself, “The kingdom will now likely revert to the house of David. 27 If these people go up to offer sacrifices at the temple of the Lord in Jerusalem, they will again give their allegiance to their lord, Rehoboam king of Judah. They will kill me and return to King Rehoboam.”
28 After seeking advice, the king made two golden calves. He said to the people, “It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.” 29 One he set up in Bethel, and the other in Dan. 30 And this thing became a sin; the people came to worship the one at Bethel and went as far as Dan to worship the other.[b ]
31 Jeroboam built shrines on high places and appointed priests from all sorts of people, even though they were not Levites. 32 He instituted a festival on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, like the festival held in Judah, and offered sacrifices on the altar. This he did in Bethel, sacrificing to the calves he had made. And at Bethel he also installed priests at the high places he had made. 33 On the fifteenth day of the eighth month, a month of his own choosing, he offered sacrifices on the altar he had built at Bethel. So he instituted the festival for the Israelites and went up to the altar to make offerings.
Footnotes:
a. 1 Kings 12:25 Hebrew Penuel, a variant of Peniel
b. 1 Kings 12:30 Probable reading of the original Hebrew text; Masoretic Text people went to the one as far as Dan
1 Kings 16:26 (NIV)
He followed completely the ways of Jeroboam son of Nebat, committing the same sin Jeroboam had caused Israel to commit, so that they aroused the anger of the Lord, the God of Israel, by their worthless idols.
In like fashion, I doubt Our Heavenly Father views things like "the nativity scene" as holy; he told us not to make any image of him. The Israelites didn't see the form of anything when God spoke to them out of the fire... Deuteronomy 4:12, 15-18 (NIV)
12 Then the Lord spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice.
[...]
15 You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below.
Jesus in the flesh was suppose to be God's image (Colossians 1:15), and so are we if we're being conformed to his image. It's not suppose to be anything we construct with our hands. Quote: According to Archbishop Ussher, Christ was born around 4 BC. What day was Jesus born? We don’t know nor does Scripture reveal this date. So the date selected as Christmas (December 25 by the Gregorian calendar) was probably not the date Jesus was born (see Feedback: The Origin of Christmas). The issue though isn’t about the actual date but about taking time to remember Christ’s entrance into the world. Both King Jeroboam and Aaron arbitrarily chose a date of their own liking to worship YHWH, in remembrance of something he did (as I quoted in the passages above). This wasn't acceptable. This doesn't apply to traditions that aren't honoring something our God did: in contrast, out of the traditions that I know of, Purim and Hannukah for example aren't really celebrating YHWH, but commemorating how the Israelites as a people dedicated themselves to him—not celebrating something he did. (Though I don't celebrate them either, just providing an example of man-made traditions that would be alright since they neither [a] contradict the law nor commemorate something God did on a date we chose). To celebrate God, and the things he has done (and will do), he gave us the dates in Leviticus 23.
Quote: If someone honors God with a decorated tree (as opposed to false gods) then how can it be sinful?
The same way it is sinful to pray like the pagans. Obviously, we ARE praying to the true, living God—unlike the pagans. Yet, we're still told to not pray like them.
Matthew 6:7-8 (NIV)
7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Our Heavenly Father outright told us not to worship him in pagan ways. It sounds like the author of this particular article is using his own reasoning and rationalization instead of the simple obedience found in the scriptures.
Deuteronomy 12:2-4 (NIV)
2 Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains, on the hills and under every spreading tree, where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. 3 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.
4 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way.
Deuteronomy 12:29-32 (NIV)
29 The Lord your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.[a]
Footnotes:
a. Deuteronomy 12:32 In Hebrew texts this verse (12:32) is numbered 13:1.
It's not just about sacrificing your children to Moloch and idolatry if even prayer is suppose to be holy/set-apart to YHWH, praying in a way he told us to pray, not a way the pagans pray. If we want to commemorate something he did or will do, he already gave us dates for that on his calendar/appointed times. I almost can't believe the boldness people have approaching our Holy God, dedicating pagan traditions to him, when he has told us to not worship him in their way or pray to him in their way. It shouldn't be done.
Also, this isn't the biggest issue, but it is misleading to call what's written in the bible as "the first Christmas"; no one in the bible refers to it that way. Fulfilled prophecies? sure. Our messiah? sure. But that term didn't come into existence until the Catholic Church and the term, in and of itself, is so backwards and dishonest: if we're remembering his birth, why call it Christ's mass? (Christ's death?). It would be truthful if they instead called the passover by the term "Christmas" / Christ's death, seeing as that's the day he actually died. If they did that, "Christmas" would actually fall on a date commemorating what he did tell us to remember (his death). But no, they don't even adhere to that; Christ's mass / Christ's death is taking place in the winter, instead of in spring—unlike Jesus and his disciples, who did keep the last supper around, if not on, passover, thus spring.
Ultimately, these traditions do not adhere to scripture / the full truth of what the scriptures convey. If Jesus didn't tolerate this from the Pharisees, he will not tolerate it from us.
Quote: Mark 7:8-9 (NIV) 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.” 9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[a] your own traditions! Footnotes: a. Mark 7:9 Some manuscripts set up
Those "commands of God" that we're setting aside today are the ones instructing us to not worship him (including not praying to him) in pagan ways. I say "we", but really I'm alluding to the Catholic traditions my grandparents and mother's generation grew up with. This article is grasping at straws. Traditions that contradict commands should be done away with.
and I know worshiping God in truth as he intends is your main priority. ^^ |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reply
