Question about the Tribulation

[Garland-Green]

Revelation 5:1-7

5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Is the Tribulation God's wrath? Just curious... I hear someone say that it is not, and it did not sound quite right to me. The seals are opened during the Tribulation from what I am gathering. Who is opening the seals, allowing or permitting this to happen, and why is he allowing it to happen? Since it is Jesus, it seems to me like all the seal are wrath and in a way part of judgement, not just six, and seven... Any input, or correction is much appreciated. smile

The First Seal:
"I watched as The Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest." (Revelation 6:1-2)

The Second Seal
"When The Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword." (Revelation 6:3-4)

The Third Seal
"When The Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!" (Revelation 6:5-6)

The Fourth Seal
"When The Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth." (Revelation 6:7-8.)

The Fifth Seal
"When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of The Word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until You judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." (Revelation 6:9-11)

The Sixth Seal
"I watched as He opened the sixth seal. There was a great Earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from The Face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of The Lamb! For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who can stand?" (Revelation 6:12-17)

The Seventh Seal
"When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets." (Revelation 8:1-2)

The First Trumpet
"The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up." (Revelation 8:6-7)

The Second Trumpet
"The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed." (Revelation 8:8-9) See A Huge Mountain, All Ablaze

The Third Trumpet
"The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water - the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter." (Revelation 8:10-11)

The Fourth Trumpet
"The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night." (Revelation 8:12)

The Fifth Trumpet (First Woe)
"The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them. The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and Chariots rushing into battle. They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon." (Revelation 9:1-11)

The Sixth Trumpet (Second Woe)
"The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns of the golden altar that is before God. It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number. The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breast plates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury. The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood -idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts." (Revelation 9:13-21)

The Seventh Trumpet (Third Woe)
The First Bowl
"The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image." (Revelation 16:2)

The Second Bowl
"The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead man, and every living thing in the sea died." (Revelation 16:3)

The Third Bowl
"The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: "You are just in these judgments, You who are and Who were, The Holy One, because You have so judged; for they have shed the blood of Your saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink as they deserve." And I heard the altar respond: "Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are Your judgments." (Revelation 16:4-7)

The Fourth Bowl
"The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed The Name of God, Who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify Him." (Revelation 16:8-9)

The Fifth Bowl
"The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done." (Revelation 16:10-11)

The Sixth Bowl
"The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet (see articles in our Prophecy section). They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed." Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon." (Revelation 16:12-16). See Armageddon

The Seventh Bowl
"The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of The Temple came a loud voice from The Throne, saying, "It is done!" Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of His wrath. Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible." (Revelation 16:17-21)  

[real eyes realize]

I think the confusion comes from the fact that they do overlap. But there is a distinction between the two. For example, any form of persecution/trouble/hate directed at a servant of God is referred to as tribulation i.e. 1 Samuel 26:24; Matthew 13:21.

Quote:

1 Samuel 26:24 (KJV)

24 And, behold, as thy life was much set by this day in mine eyes, so let my life be much set by in the eyes of the Lord, and let him deliver me out of all tribulation.

Quote:

Matthew 13:21 (KJV)

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Modern versions like the NIV sometimes substitute the word "trouble" instead of translating it as "tribulation". In fact, that's how 1 Samuel 26:24 and Matthew 13:21 reads in the NIV ("deliver me from all trouble" and "when trouble or persecution comes because of the word"). So "tribulation" is just general persecution for the saint/God's holy person, trouble coming from the world (i.e. people conspiring against you, people mocking you, and these people are against God, justice, righteousness, the word of God).

Wrath, on the otherhand, I see coming from God because people made him angry, regardless of whether or not that person is in covenant with him. And the person on the receiving end of that wrath is sinning against him, not standing up for righteousness, justice or anything like that. For example, God getting angry at his own people for their idolatry (Exodus 32:11) or getting angry at the Gentiles (like at Nineveh in Nahum 1, I'll quote the NIV since the KJV only mentions Nineveh in verse 1).

Quote:

Exodus 32:11 (KJV)

And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

Quote:

Nahum 1:2,8 (NIV)

2 The Lord is a jealous and avenging God;
    the Lord takes vengeance and is filled with wrath.
    The Lord takes vengeance on his foes
    and vents his wrath against his enemies.

[...]

8  but with an overwhelming flood
    he will make an end of Nineveh;
    he will pursue his foes into the realm of darkness

If God is angry over sin, it's wrath. If the world is angry and you're receiving heat from them because you're standing for what is righteous, and are not in sin, then it's tribulation that you're enduring for the sake of God/the word.

---

As for end times tribulation and wrath: I do hear most Christians using the word "tribulation" to refer to the "great tribulation" which Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:21 and John spoke of in Revelation 7:14, when the people of God / the saints endure persecution from Satan/the world; on the other hand, they use "God's wrath" to refer to those who remain God's enemy / unrepentant; certain points in Revelation (9:20-21) show God unleashing plagues on people to get them to repent, but they're not responding...

Quote:

Revelation 9:20-21 (NIV)

20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

...then of course, we also have verses like 1 Thessalonians 5:9, saying "For God hath not appointed us to wrath", further contextualizing that wrath is for someone who is being God's enemy.

So, yeah, the person you spoke to used it correctly, but I think this is where people get confused: Revelation 3:10 told the church of Philadelphia to persevere/endure in the way they were doing so they could be kept out of "the time of testing" that was about to come on the whole world. That is where, I think, people assume something Jesus never meant: they interpret that statement as "I'll take you off the planet" instead of "endure persecution to the point of death so you don't have to live to see what's coming next". I subscribe to the latter because of what we find in Revelation 7 (while earthly plagues are being unleashed, after he has sealed the 12,000 from each tribe of Israel via his four angels).

Quote:

Revelation 7:9-14 (NIV)

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.

The dead haven't been raised because they will be raised after all the seals, trumpets, bowls have been opened, blown, and poured out, respectively. Which means that the resurrection of the dead happens in Revelation 20, upon his return, and the living will not be transformed/raptured to meet him in the sky before the dead in Christ ever get a chance to; dead saints of the tribulation get resurrected first, then the living ones after...

Quote:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 (NIV)

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first

Quote:

Revelation 20:4-5 (NIV)

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Footnotes:

a. Revelation 20:4 Or God; I also saw those who

...so, if they're not on earth but in God's presence, and they can't be raptured before the dead believers in Christ, and the resurrection isn't happening until Revelation 20 after all seals have been opened, then they must've died, thus "blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on" (Revelation 14:13). So, I'm presuming the scene we saw in Revelation 7:9-14, saints in his presence, will occur at the same time as earthly wrath takes place, considering how both the previous and following chapters continue talking about seals being broken (followed by trumpets and bowls). And chapter 6 directly says the wrath of the lamb started. Those people in his presence went through the great tribulation/persecution too, so they will die, not from the Lamb's wrath, but by the world's persecution of them.

During His wrath, which we're kept safe from, those who are still alive will continue to endure tribulation from the world/Satan/beast/antichrist/false prophet and their followers. And I'm pretty sure some of us are starving to death, unless he rains down manna or something, because we won't be able to buy or sell unless we take the mark of the beast (maybe farmers can continue growing food, but I'm not a farmer). Those that were sealed in Chapter 7 won't be affected by God's wrath; if they die I think it's going to be martyrdom, persecution from the world, not by any calamity sent by God. Out of that group, I think there will be some around until the end (not all of them since persecution against us continues all throughout that time, despite being sealed against God's wrath, we're not protected from the world's anger against us, unless we pray for it I suppose? Some of us will be martyred though, so some of us are definitely dying at the hands of the enemy), then at the end, Jesus returns, the believers who died get resurrected and transformed meeting him in the air, followed by those who survived/did not die during the great tribulation.

To summarize a bit, the end times "great tribulation" does start with tribulation against believers, that tribulation manifesting as anger/rage/hate/opposition/murder from the world, directed at us. Said tribulation against us will increase, we're dying out (literally... or those being silenced out of cowardice, might as well be dead though: cowards get thrown into the lake of fire eventually, Revelation 21:8, thus our call to persevere and not fear), persecution continues even until Revelation 12 and 14 (long after the seals of the Lamb's wrath have opened in Rev 6 and long after people have been sealed/protected against God's wrath).

Quote:

Revelation 12:17 (KJV)

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Quote:

Revelation 14:9-12 (KJV)

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

By quoting Revelation 14, I'm suggesting that until they get thrown into the lake of fire, we will have to continue to patiently endure/resist persecution.

So, to reiterate again, despite being kept safe from God's wrath/plagues, we will NOT be kept safe from Satan's/the WORLD's anger; their hostile persecution of us continues. Thus tribulation and wrath happening at the same time, but one is not directed at the other. Like any battle, both teams are firing off at their enemies, only difference is God wants to save Satan's soldiers and make them repent, he doesn't want to ultimately destroy them, the way Satan wants to achieve with us.

edited