Is it possible to know that God exists?

[Rylan -redacted-]

Or, more precisely, is it possible to know that God exists as described in the Bible? So far, I've reached the following conclusions:

1. The evidence suggests that there is a God of some kind. (Without one, the known universe would be implausible, to say the least. Garland-Green has posted some great articles about that.)

2. Most religions are full of inconsistencies and errors of logic that make them intellectually unacceptable.

3. If you strip away the controversies and "Christian" teachings not actually found in the Bible, most of the book makes sense and does not conflict with reality. (Some of it still seems improbable, but then, so does life.)

4. For the Bible to give a reliable account of God, it must be true in its entirety. Any error or falsehood would cast doubt upon the veracity of the rest.

5. There are two types of material in the Bible: that which is demonstrably true, and that which has not been proven. In the latter case, a lack of proof is not the same as disproof; I am unaware of any passages that have been shown to be false.

Essentially, I've concluded that the God of the Bible is the most likely to exist, but I'm not satisfied with that. I do not want to end with the idea that He probably exists, although that's admittedly a step up from where I used to be. Is it possible to know (preferably while I'm still alive)?  

[Garland-Green]

What you are asking for is assurance, and that is possible. Not in a physical sense of Him appearing to you, but for Him to come into you and change you ( Revelation 3:20), and in that way give you an assurance that He is real. If what the Bible say is true then He can make you a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17).

There is a point when you have had your questions answered where you have to surrender to Him through Jesus. You have reached the conclusion that the Bible is true, and that you have not found any fault with it. If you agree with that then you agree that the message is true. We are all sinners separated from God by our sins. The only way for us have fellowship with God again is through His son, receiving forgiveness through believing that He died for our sins, and paid the price so we would not have to. He (Jesus) is the only mediator (1 Timothy 2:5) between man and God, and the only way for us to really know God, or be assured of God's existence. Intellectually you can only reach a certain point, you need to experience salvation, this is where you will find assurance of God on this side of life.

John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14:15-31
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

Romans 10:9
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

A police detective examined Christianity using the tools of his trade;
J. Warner Wallace Lectures on the Evidence for Christianity  

[Dragonbait]

Bob Hartman

For so long I was depending upon
My senses and fences, I tried to ride on
And trusting in things that can never be seen
Was always a crutch on which others must lean
Thinking if I could see I would believe
Then somebody said "believe and you will see"

(Chorus)
Sight unseen, sight unseen
You have to take it sight unseen
Blinded by the darkness only faith can come between
Sight unseen, sight unseen

Evidence built into every design
Led to conviction between every line
Faith is the key that can open the veil
To Love incarnated and pierced with a nail
Listen my friend, have I got news for you
The nails in His hands and feet were meant for you

================================Sight Unseen
================================Petra
================================based on Hebrews 11:6

An enjoyable tune. Not their best, but not bad.

==========

With all due respect to our Fearless Leader, I can't entirely agree with him on this (though I don't entirely disagree, either). Oh, it's not that I think God frequently proves Himself real (although He does), but ... I have little faith in ... faith.

Does that make sense? Let me try again. Anybody, anybody, can convince themselves that something is "real" just by wanting to believe it. This doesn't mean it is real. Just because, for example ... people believe in that Fraud Island Medium lady, doesn't mean that her "ability" is real. This "subjective reality" is part of why we have so many different religions in the world.

There is evidence, for and against everything -- including for and against the God of the Bible. In my opinion, it falls to us to examine the evidece, then make the choice to believe or disbelieve. In the case of God, there is evidence aplenty for believing in an all-powerful deity, just looking at the world we live in. The Bible has evidence, internal and external, to support it (and thus, its claims regarding its Divine Author). You, clearly, have already examined a lot of evidence -- and I assume that Garland is not your only source.

At some point, no matter what, no matter which side you lean towards in what debate, "faith" is going to enter into it. There's no way around it. You have to have faith in evidence, then in what conclusions it leads you towards, or in your own ability to draw accurate conclusions. Faith is integral to human existence. I'm not going to say anything against faith, I just don't think it should be the be-all and end-all of any decision -- or an excuse offered up by those who aren't willing to even try to debate.

Now, regarding assurance? Well, that's a tricky one, as we humans are (a) notoriously stupid, and (b) frequently faithless. God has given countless assurances over the centuries, but so many of those get overlooked on a regular basis. He could come down right now, walk up to the average person, and honk their nose ... two weeks later, that person would probably be convinced that it was all just a dream.

God does give assurances, but it's up to us to accept those assurances. But so few of us do -- even those of us who do follow Him frequently drop the ball in that regard. And that's kind of silly, in a way ... I mean, if I go to work, I accept my employer's assurance that I'll get paid on a certain day. God is much bigger and more faithful than my employer.

We can't have what the world calls "assurance" or "proof". We can get what God calls "assurance" or "proof". The world is never going to accept things of the Spirit.

So, not trying to sound rude or anything, but ... if you're looking to prove God to yourself, then start by changing your standards. God already is real; you just have to accept the evidence.  

[Rylan -redacted-]

Thank you for your replies; I'm still trying to stream the video (my Internet connection is ponderously slow), but I am looking forward to watching it. This entire post is meant to respond to both of you, so please disregard the "structure" imposed by the quotes.

Dragonbait

Anybody, anybody, can convince themselves that something is "real" just by wanting to believe it. This doesn't mean it is real.

This is part of why I am in such a quandary. I understand that my level of faith has no effect whatsoever on the nature or existence of God. If He is what the Bible says He is, I cannot change that by refusing to believe—and vice versa.

Garland-Green

Intellectually you can only reach a certain point, you need to experience salvation, this is where you will find assurance of God on this side of life.

I also recognize the limitations of human reasoning. I do not always reach the correct conclusion, especially when some of the premises are wrong or missing. I have been known to deceive myself, sometimes with painful results. I'm aware that even my skepticism may be based on certain delusions, and that scares me.

Life has taught me to question almost everything, including myself. I question my observations, my experiences, and sometimes even my questioning (although that part may fall under the "notoriously stupid" category). I can't deny that the evidence is there, but I am not immune to misinterpreting the evidence. Things that I thought were obvious have occasionally turned out not to be true at all. Yes, faith is "integral to human existence," but putting faith in the wrong things often produces unnecessary grief.

Looking back at what I've written here, I think my problem is that I've reasoned myself into a corner where I am forced to admit either that God is everything that the Bible claims He is, or that logic has led me in the wrong direction. And both seem entirely possible.

Edit: Oh… yeah. Possible versus reasonable. I just finished the video, and I need to reconsider my analysis now.  

[Garland-Green]

Rylan -redacted-

Thank you for your replies; I'm still trying to stream the video (my Internet connection is ponderously slow), but I am looking forward to watching it. This entire post is meant to respond to both of you, so please disregard the "structure" imposed by the quotes.

Dragonbait

Anybody, anybody, can convince themselves that something is "real" just by wanting to believe it. This doesn't mean it is real.

This is part of why I am in such a quandary. I understand that my level of faith has no effect whatsoever on the nature or existence of God. If He is what the Bible says He is, I cannot change that by refusing to believe—and vice versa.

Garland-Green

Intellectually you can only reach a certain point, you need to experience salvation, this is where you will find assurance of God on this side of life.

I also recognize the limitations of human reasoning. I do not always reach the correct conclusion, especially when some of the premises are wrong or missing. I have been known to deceive myself, sometimes with painful results. I'm aware that even my skepticism may be based on certain delusions, and that scares me.

Life has taught me to question almost everything, including myself. I question my observations, my experiences, and sometimes even my questioning (although that part may fall under the "notoriously stupid" category). I can't deny that the evidence is there, but I am not immune to misinterpreting the evidence. Things that I thought were obvious have occasionally turned out not to be true at all. Yes, faith is "integral to human existence," but putting faith in the wrong things often produces unnecessary grief.

Looking back at what I've written here, I think my problem is that I've reasoned myself into a corner where I am forced to admit either that God is everything that the Bible claims He is, or that logic has led me in the wrong direction. And both seem entirely possible.

Edit: Oh… yeah. Possible versus reasonable. I just finished the video, and I need to reconsider my analysis now.

I agree with you that it is possible to make great errors in judgement, because of limitations in our understanding. Due to unfair one-sided presentation of the evidence, or our own bias. I've made errors in judgement many times. I have had to adjust myself and disregard previous ideas I have held as I have been presented with new facts, and I will probably have to do so also in the future since I am pretty sure I am not infallible. It is a good thing not to throw reason over-board.

Quote:

but putting faith in the wrong things often produces unnecessary grief.

That is true. Personally I don't think it is undue grief if what we are putting our faith in is not true. Grief can be a good instrument to making us reevaluate our decision to put our trust in an idea. Putting our trust in the what is an error, can also be a good learning experience. It could teach us something we can apply later on in our life. It is if we stay in it, and do not discover that it is wrong that we are in trouble. On the other hand - truth can also produce grief (result in suffering), if it is at odds with what is considered to be the accepted truth. As an example; Christianity is the most persecuted religion on the planet today. Christian persecution doubled in 2013 with figures as high as 8,000 killed simply for holding Christianity to be the truth. It is in accordance with Jesus' words: "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

So in Christianity at least you can't measure truth by lack of grief.

Matthew 16:24-25
24Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.  

[Garland-Green]

Dragonbait

Bob Hartman

For so long I was depending upon
My senses and fences, I tried to ride on
And trusting in things that can never be seen
Was always a crutch on which others must lean
Thinking if I could see I would believe
Then somebody said "believe and you will see"

(Chorus)
Sight unseen, sight unseen
You have to take it sight unseen
Blinded by the darkness only faith can come between
Sight unseen, sight unseen

Evidence built into every design
Led to conviction between every line
Faith is the key that can open the veil
To Love incarnated and pierced with a nail
Listen my friend, have I got news for you
The nails in His hands and feet were meant for you

================================Sight Unseen
================================Petra
================================based on Hebrews 11:6

An enjoyable tune. Not their best, but not bad.

==========

With all due respect to our Fearless Leader, I can't entirely agree with him on this (though I don't entirely disagree, either). Oh, it's not that I think God frequently proves Himself real (although He does), but ... I have little faith in ... faith.

Does that make sense? Let me try again. Anybody, anybody, can convince themselves that something is "real" just by wanting to believe it. This doesn't mean it is real. Just because, for example ... people believe in that Fraud Island Medium lady, doesn't mean that her "ability" is real. This "subjective reality" is part of why we have so many different religions in the world.

There is evidence, for and against everything -- including for and against the God of the Bible. In my opinion, it falls to us to examine the evidece, then make the choice to believe or disbelieve. In the case of God, there is evidence aplenty for believing in an all-powerful deity, just looking at the world we live in. The Bible has evidence, internal and external, to support it (and thus, its claims regarding its Divine Author). You, clearly, have already examined a lot of evidence -- and I assume that Garland is not your only source.

At some point, no matter what, no matter which side you lean towards in what debate, "faith" is going to enter into it. There's no way around it. You have to have faith in evidence, then in what conclusions it leads you towards, or in your own ability to draw accurate conclusions. Faith is integral to human existence. I'm not going to say anything against faith, I just don't think it should be the be-all and end-all of any decision -- or an excuse offered up by those who aren't willing to even try to debate.

Now, regarding assurance? Well, that's a tricky one, as we humans are (a) notoriously stupid, and (b) frequently faithless. God has given countless assurances over the centuries, but so many of those get overlooked on a regular basis. He could come down right now, walk up to the average person, and honk their nose ... two weeks later, that person would probably be convinced that it was all just a dream.

God does give assurances, but it's up to us to accept those assurances. But so few of us do -- even those of us who do follow Him frequently drop the ball in that regard. And that's kind of silly, in a way ... I mean, if I go to work, I accept my employer's assurance that I'll get paid on a certain day. God is much bigger and more faithful than my employer.

We can't have what the world calls "assurance" or "proof". We can get what God calls "assurance" or "proof". The world is never going to accept things of the Spirit.

So, not trying to sound rude or anything, but ... if you're looking to prove God to yourself, then start by changing your standards. God already is real; you just have to accept the evidence.

I don't expect people to clap their hands and always agree with me. I am glad that you are voicing your opinion. ^_^  

[Rylan -redacted-]

I'm sorry; I made a complete fool of myself yesterday. I was having a hard time dealing with some of the material in the answers, and I posted while I was still freaking out about it. That was a poor choice that I will try to avoid in the future.

Garland-Green

Quote:

but putting faith in the wrong things often produces unnecessary grief.

That is true. Personally I don't think it is undue grief if what we are putting our faith in is not true. Grief can be a good instrument to making us reevaluate our decision to put our trust in an idea. Putting our trust in the what is an error, can also be a good learning experience. It could teach us something we can apply later on in our life. It is if we stay in it, and do not discover that it is wrong that we are in trouble. On the other hand - truth can also produce grief (result in suffering), if it is at odds with what is considered to be the accepted truth. As an example; Christianity is the most persecuted religion on the planet today. Christian persecution doubled in 2013 with figures as high as 8,000 killed simply for holding Christianity to be the truth. It is in accordance with Jesus' words: "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

So in Christianity at least you can't measure truth by lack of grief.

Matthew 16:24-25
24Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

I agree with this. My intent was to say that putting faith in the wrong things often produces grief that could have been avoided by not making that mistake. Suffering persecution as a Christian appears to have very little overlap with suffering for being stupid. Of course, when I posted, I failed to see the potential benefit of the latter because I was in the middle of experiencing it. XD Thank you for pointing that out.

I'm still pondering the content of the J. Warner Wallace video and reexamining some of the things that I've said here. I am beginning to think that an undue obsession with "knowing" is just as irrational as unfounded belief.

 

[Rylan -redacted-]

Let me clarify my last statement: It became clear to me last night that I've been too arbitrary in my standards for knowledge. If I demanded the same level of "knowing" in all areas of life as I have been regarding God, I would be consistent... at the price of sanity. The possibility that I might be wrong would prevent me from making any active decisions, regardless of how miniscule that risk might be. I would not be able to accept any part of reality, no matter how much evidence was stacked in its favor. My obsession with "complete" knowledge would destroy my ability to know anything.

The other way for me to achieve consistency would be to approach the topic of God with the same standards that I apply to other areas of knowledge. I have found no reasonable cause to believe that the Bible is in error, and multiple reasons to believe that it is not. For the sake of coherence, I have no choice but to accept it as fact.  

[apiyo]

There's lots of human arguments for the true Lord God existing, in and out of the Bible. The ontological argument, existence being complex enough for a designer and needing a cause (that is mentioned in Romans 1:19-20). Reason is great but human reason is faulty so you can talk yourself into anything. And besides some of us aren't good philosophers. Your right also that there is nothing in the Bible that is DISproved.

In the end though a person has to take it with faith that God exists. Ultimately it has to be good enough since we won't actually see him until after we die. If you wait to believe him when you see him it'll been too late. If you're asking about touchble here-and-now examples then reasoning, your conscience, and evidence based off His handiwork and his inerrant word will have to do.  

[Rylan -redacted-]

apiyo

There's lots of human arguments for the true Lord God existing, in and out of the Bible. The ontological argument, existence being complex enough for a designer and needing a cause (that is mentioned in Romans 1:19-20). Reason is great but human reason is faulty so you can talk yourself into anything. And besides some of us aren't good philosophers. Your right also that there is nothing in the Bible that is DISproved.

In the end though a person has to take it with faith that God exists. Ultimately it has to be good enough since we won't actually see him until after we die. If you wait to believe him when you see him it'll been too late. If you're asking about touchble here-and-now examples then reasoning, your conscience, and evidence based off His handiwork and his inerrant word will have to do.

Not to be obnoxious, but the ontological argument strikes me as rather weak; at most, it demonstrates that the concept of God exists. The cosmological and teleological arguments played a role in convincing me that there must be a God, but they do not stipulate that He must be the God of the Bible. (I've since reached the conclusion that He is, but that has more to do with evidence specifically in favor of the Bible.)

I am not nearly as opposed to the idea of faith as I once was. I see now that people require it—in the general sense, not necessarily in the supernatural—just to function in day-to-day life. Unfortunately, I've met too many Christians who blindly adhered to their religious faith without ever bothering to think about whether or not it made sense. One of the attractive things about this guild is that its members do appear to be genuinely concerned with the truth.

Faith ought to be reasonable. And if I'm to be honest, I have to admit that the more I examine Christianity itself, the more reasonable it seems. Actually, if I haven't said this already, it's starting to seem unreasonable not to believe. (I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone here; I'm just trying to figure things out.)  

[Garland-Green]

Rylan -redacted-

apiyo

There's lots of human arguments for the true Lord God existing, in and out of the Bible. The ontological argument, existence being complex enough for a designer and needing a cause (that is mentioned in Romans 1:19-20). Reason is great but human reason is faulty so you can talk yourself into anything. And besides some of us aren't good philosophers. Your right also that there is nothing in the Bible that is DISproved.

In the end though a person has to take it with faith that God exists. Ultimately it has to be good enough since we won't actually see him until after we die. If you wait to believe him when you see him it'll been too late. If you're asking about touchble here-and-now examples then reasoning, your conscience, and evidence based off His handiwork and his inerrant word will have to do.

Not to be obnoxious, but the ontological argument strikes me as rather weak; at most, it demonstrates that the concept of God exists. The cosmological and teleological arguments played a role in convincing me that there must be a God, but they do not stipulate that He must be the God of the Bible. (I've since reached the conclusion that He is, but that has more to do with evidence specifically in favor of the Bible.)

I am not nearly as opposed to the idea of faith as I once was. I see now that people require it—in the general sense, not necessarily in the supernatural—just to function in day-to-day life. Unfortunately, I've met too many Christians who blindly adhered to their religious faith without ever bothering to think about whether or not it made sense. One of the attractive things about this guild is that its members do appear to be genuinely concerned with the truth.

Faith ought to be reasonable. And if I'm to be honest, I have to admit that the more I examine Christianity itself, the more reasonable it seems. Actually, if I haven't said this already, it's starting to seem unreasonable not to believe. (I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone here; I'm just trying to figure things out.)

You have not said anything that should cause anyone to take offense or need apologizing. You are right that faith ought to be reasonable. We should as Christians be able to reason with people.

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.