[S]Surrogates For Lifemates

[Laroawan]

I'm wondering what you guys think of the possibility for finding surrogates for breedings with a lifemated couple.

To clarify, I'm talking about heterosexual couples who can fully breed with each other normally and who are lifemated finding a surrogate to breed with for IC reasons. Both Soquili in the lifemate would have to agree to the breeding as well as the surrogate.

Reasons for this could be that one Soquili in the pairing has more breedings left than the other (this is actually already allowed at least in the old Breeding Information Thread). One Soquili could be ICly infertile or just asexual. Maybe they want the companionship of a lifemate but don't want to reproduce themselves or have some kind of genetic disease/traits they don't want to pass on to their offspring.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Note: I know this is kind of similar to that other thread but that one is locked and I feel this is a different suggestion.

ETA: An alternative could be to allow lovemating of regular couples who have special needs. They want to be with their heterosexual/same species partner forever but need to have surrogates for IC reasons.  

[ATh e a r t]

I'm a little bit confused by this. More so because... I can sorta see why, but kinda not at the same time?

I think currently for the one partner has more breedings than another, they end up breeding/evening it up before they decide to LM.

For the infertile, it seems like ICly a Soq would know what they're getting into before jumping into a LMing. Kinda the same for asexual. There's always adoption and wishing stars. I wouldn't be against allowing it, though (Uta would probably have a better idea than I do).

It could always be counted as a love-mate of some type.  

[Laroawan]

Can two soquili who could technically lifemate do lovemating instead because of the reasons I mentioned above? It seemed that wasn't currently possible though I could be mistaken.

Future lifemates could even out their breedings before signign a LM agreement but then they wouldn't get the bonuses of being lifemates. Lovemates don't need to even out their breedings because there breedings will always be available to them even if their partner has previously used up 3 breedings they can still have 5 with a surrogate and get the benefits of having a lovemate agreement.

ETA: This idea came out of the suggestions from the other lifemate/lovemate thread so is kind of in response to peoples concerns brought up there.  

[Kaitaia]

Isn't that one of the surrogate options already? In the case of one Soq having more breedings left than the other, anyway.

Quote:

We've included a surrogacy policy for those couples who just don't have a physical ability to breed, have consent of all owners and co-owners, without docking their lifemate status. This also goes for lifemates who have unequal numbers of breedings.

I think I might be missing the point of this thread, but that's what I got out of it. xD;  

[Laroawan]

You're right, it is one of the surrogate options already to be able to even out breedings between lifemates and I mentioned that in the first post.

But the rules don't cover situations where lifemates are of equal number of breedings but want to find a surrogate outside of their relationship for IC reasons (like infertility). Right now they would be punished by having their lifemating broken if they found a surrogate for this reason and wouldn't get to use any of the lifemating bonuses. Maybe there should be an option to change a lifemating to a lovemating for these kind of circumstances as lovemates aren't punished for needing a surrogate.

This all comes back to Thalion's suggestion thread No breeding maximum = real equality. I wanted to offer a different solution to those concerns.

Maybe I am way off base and no one would ever use this option even if it was allowed but it seems like it would open up more RP and relationship possibilities that aren't available right now.  

[ATh e a r t]

*was discussing this with some other staff members*

The surrogacy/lovemate form isn't restricted to same sex couples/mini+reg couples, so it could be used.

Quote:

When a lifemated couple, or group, that usually cannot breed is ready to have children, they often need a surrogate. This is the form you will post when you've found a surrogate, and are ready to enter raffles. Think of this as an approved selective permission breeding form. These aren't kept or logged, so it is up to you, the owner, to keep track of these consent forms, and use them during the appropriate breeding raffles.

But the life-mate perks:

Quote:

• Receive a bonus to their roll for a possible 3rd basket
• Are eligible for entry in any 'life-mates' category of breeding events

These are only applicable to those that are breeding with their life-mates.

To go further from the above, since the LM perks only come if you're breeding with the LM, there technically doesn't have to be an OOC LMing if you do the LM ICly.

/hopes this helps a bit  

[Laroawan]

Thank you for your input Heart, I think maybe I'm confused by the new lifemating rules.

I was under the impression that all lifemates/lovemates get the same breeding bonuses (chance at 3 baskets). When using a surrogate for a Soquili who is lifemated/lovemated does that mean for that breeding you do not get the bonus chance of 3 baskets? And can't enter the category for lifemated Soquili if a colorist offers one?
ie. If a usdia and a kalona were lifemated/lovemated, when they do breedings with their surrogate(s) they do not get a chance at the 3rd basket that is a perk for lifemates?

If any couple can lifemate and use a surrogate for any breeding without breaking their LM agreement then I guess my suggestion is moot.  

[ATh e a r t]

That's correct, Laro! The bonus only goes for breeding LM'd pairs.

A surrogacy is essentially a fling, even if the same pony is a surrogate each breeding (:  

[Laroawan]

Thanks for the clarification heart

I think the wording in the Breeding Information Thread/Mates and Permission Thread are very confusing.

Basically, it says that homosexual pairs, polygamous groups and different species pairs can now lifemate and be included on the lifemate list. Then it lists all the perks and limitations of being in a lifemated couple/group. It doesn't say, as far as I can see, that homosexual and different species lifemates don't get any of the perks of being lifemated because they have to use a surrogate (ie. no extra baskets and no entering in lifemate slots).

This should really be stated more clearly, I can tell from the other suggestion thread that I am not the only one confused about this.

Going on what you've said the breeding thread should state something like this:
1. Lifemating bonuses only apply when breeding with your lifemate.
2. Using a surrogate is allowed for any lifemated couple as long as all owners agree.
3. A lifemated couple that uses a surrogate does not get any of the benefits of lifemating for that breeding. (No chance for extra baskets, can't enter in lifemate only slots)  

[Kamiki]

I also think the rules need to be more clear. I thought the whole point of "lifemate equality" was to give nontraditional couples the "perks" of Lifemating without breaking the realworld setting (ie, a gay couple can't ever physically produce offsrping. They will always have to get a surrogate and wishing stars).

So Pony A and Pony B could lifemate, but since they can't physically breed for any reason, Pony C steps in a surrogate. And therefore, Pony A and Pony C get the tangible "perks" of lifemating (extra basket chance, LM category).

But if this isn't the case, lifemating non traditional pairs is basically pointless, other than being able to call the pair lifemates other than lovemates, which is just semantics anyway.  

[ATh e a r t]

I've always seen people complain about love-mating not being 'acknowledged' as being 'official' not as much the breeding perks.

When you're breeding in a surrogacy, it's essentially a fling. Pony A and Pony B are life-mates, not Pony A and Pony C.

I don't know about others, but when I life-mated Laer and Tempy, I did it because I wanted them official, not because of breeding extras o.o (plus, if you RP the couple anyways, it raises your percentage) XD  

[Kamiki]

So what are the spirits or the shop really "rewarding" for the extra benefits? What "deserves" the basket chance increase and the extra rolling list? The fact that they can breed naturally?

I thought the "reward" was to reward the dedication and loyalty between the union; like a marriage . So it you want "equality" then it makes no sense to reward traditional pairings with benefits that you deny to nontraditional pairs.

Its not a fling. Calling using a surrogate a fling is actually a little insulting. When a dedicated couple, even in real life, make the huge decision to have children and to find a surrogate, its not considering cheating or a fling when they bring in a 3rd party to carry the child.

So if you're rewarding the DEDICATION of a couple or group, then the addition of the surrogacy doesn't NEGATE that dedication.

So what I'm saying is the whole "lifemate equality" thing is just a smokescreen. You can put your ponies onto a list that says they are lifemates, and get all the downsides/complications that come with lifemating without any of the tangible benefits.

I had couples that I considered "lifemated" before the new "equality" rule. They never were less "official" in my mind because they weren't on some list somewhere.  

[Malis Vitterfolk]

Lifemating is supposed to be based off the character/RP not just because of bonuses. I vote that instead we just remove the 10% bonus to baskets for lifemated couples and keep it even across the board. Yes, it was a nice perk but shouldn't be the reason for the lifemating so really, in essence it was a small bonus. The bigger bonus comes from high stats from RPing so that's the one that should matter. Lets keep it equal for all and remove the 10% lifemate bonus.  

[Kamiki]

Honestly I'd be fine with that, too. It just seems unfair and completely against the "equality" measure for lifemating to have any bonuses* that traditional couples have that nontraditional don't get access to while still being bound to the "rules" of lifemating. The only other caveat/question that would remain is what about "lifemate" slots in breeding raffles (which most colorists don't do anyway).

But at that point, why even have a Lifemates list at all? If there's going to be no benefit shop wise, why waste the NCS time and effort to maintain a list that's just a repository of "Hey, these Soqs are married now" when you can chose (or not) to have monogamous/loyal relationships strictly based on RP?

Honestly, I'm kind of leaning towards getting rid of Lifemating altogether, at least from a shop perspective. Sure, you can still RP your monogamous/loyal couples all you want, but it would alleviate all the nasty "surrogate" business. If there's NOT going to be any benefit that's given to ALL dedication/loyal couples (traditional or not) then it just seems like extra bureaucracy.

*other than the fact that nontraditional couples can never have true genetic children, which is the inherent "benefit' of having traditional couples. Without breaking the real life setting of the shop, which I'm not suggesting we do, Wishing Stars/customs will always be the only way nontraditional couples can get children that are truly a "genetic" (markings/features) mix of the parents  

[ATh e a r t]

Lifemates also kinda just post their breeding agreements once. Colorists can also choose to do "Life-mate Only" breedings (FYI: this can also go be true for "Surrogate Only" breedings).

It's possible to LM a couple -without- posting the form/breeding. It's up to the owner's involved to choose whether or not they want to, which is most likely why it -wouldn't- be removed.

But on that note, what has come out of this thread is being discussed staff-wise.