|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:35 am
 |
|
|
 |
For privacy reasons the name of the sender will be left out.
Title of the PM; Your Guild (not hate mail)
Sender;
I just want to see your view point depending if you respond or not will let me know if this is a viewpoint exchange guild or if it's just you placing your gathered knowledge but not caring if others do the same...
Answer;
Quote: 1. If evolution was a fact why can we not interbreed with apes with contracting diseases? or being able to have an offspring with our primate?
Those who support evolution claim it is because we are so distantly related that it is impossible to interbreed. I personally don't believe there is support for evolution in the Bible, or science. From what I have gathered they have not found any transitional fossils, there are tons of living "fossils" etc that kind of if you ask me defy evolution. Note; most of the people in the guild who are a part of the crew are not in favor of evolution as far as I know.
But back to the Bible.The Bible clearly states everything produce after its kind.
I believe what diversity we see in a kind, is not the progress of one kind turning into another, but that kind adapting to its environment. Though however many adaptions there are in a kind, it can never turn into another kind.
Genesis 1:24-25
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so. God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
The other problem with evolution is the time required. It requires eons of time, and long lines of deaths, even prior to man coming on the stage. It is clearly in conflict with the Bible which states that death entered into the world because of one man.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--
Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
To be a Christian and to not believe this leaves you in a predicament.
How do you interpret Jesus' words? Jesus obviously believed that the Genesis account was history.
Matthew 24:36-38
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
Quote: 2. exactly what do you believe happens to us when we die? Some people say you go to heaven...hell... what do you think?
I believe some go to Heaven, and some go to Hell depending on whether they trusted and believed in the Gospel while alive.
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
The rich man and Lazarus - Luke 16:19-31
I believe in a bodily Resurrection, because Christ had a bodily Resurrection.
I believe I will at one point have a body just like his.
Philippians 3:21
Who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
1 Corinthians 15:42-44
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Quote:
3. Is God the cause of suffering? what do you think?
Now this is a good question. I don't think God causes suffering, but that He allows it for His purpose. In Job Chapter 1 we see Satan coming before the throne of God and petitioning Him for the right to harass Job. First, note that Satan cannot lay a finger on Job until God gives him permission. Again, this would seem to indicate that God does not actually cause suffering, but only permits it.
Ultimately because sin entered into the world, there is suffering and pain. God promises to remove all pain from the world.
Revelation 21:4
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
If God was the cause of pain then pain is good right, because God is good, and all things good come from God's character? Then why remove it?
Psalm 145:9
The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:37 am
|
|
|
|
Quote: 4. Is Jesus ruling as king now?
No. Here's why; The Bible tells us that when Christ returns to the earth He will establish Himself as king in Jerusalem, sitting on the throne of David (Luke 1:32–33). The unconditional covenants demand a literal, physical return of Christ to establish the kingdom. The Abrahamic Covenant promised Israel a land, a posterity and ruler, and a spiritual blessing (Genesis 12:1–3). The Palestinian Covenant promised Israel a restoration to the land and occupation of the land (Deuteronomy 30:1–10). The Davidic Covenant promised Israel a king from David’s line who would rule forever—giving the nation rest from all their enemies (2 Samuel 7:10–13). We are not observing any of this. Jesus have not returned physically to the earth, nor is He sitting on the thrown in New Jerusalem ruling the nations with and iron rod.
Revelation 2:27
that one 'will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery' --just as I have received authority from my Father.
Psalm 2:9
You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery."
Nor have there been any judgement of the living and the dead.
2 Timothy 4:1
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:
Quote: 5. The account of Isaiah talks about a beautiful world on earth where there is not sickness, death...We could play with animals with out them hurting us, Lions would eat hay... obviously these things are not here on this earth....See what I'm getting at?
I see what you are getting at and I agree. 3nodding The kingdom is not here. All things have not been made new. We can observe the effect of sin also in the animal world.
Revelation 21:1-5
All Things Made New
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
Quote: 6. Do you believe God and Jesus are the same people?
Yes I do. If Jesus was not God how could his sacrifice be enough for all men,
for all times. A finite man paying for the infinite sins against an infinite God?
Here are some verses showing Jesus divinity;
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 5:18
For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 8:24
I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."
Note: In the Greek, "He" is not there.
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.
Exodus 3:14
And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.
Col. 2:9
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.
John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God! |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:39 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:14 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:08 am
|
|
|
|
Quote: Question two: But ROmans:6:23~ The wages of sin pays in death... We all die sinners.... and death pays for our sins so how can we be punished in hell for our sins if we paid for them? Plus~ John:11 talks about the ressurection of Lazurus Jesus' friend....If Lazurus was in heaven wouldn't he be ticked off if he was in heaven and then had to be brought back to earth? and if he was in hell why would Jesus bring back a bad person?...
Quote: Question 3: I do not agree that God Causes suffering...He does permit it though... I believe he permits to prove a point...Jeremiah :10:23~ Man cannot direct his own footsteps so look right now we're guiding ourselves and...it doesn't work out 1John 5:19~The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one... Enough Said... it makes sense for him to rule this world, but God is in control and Satan will be destroyed after he bound for a 1000 years in the abyss... but he's on earth according to Revelation:12:9-12 He's here...
Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
We all die once. I think that Lazarus was more than likely in Abraham's bosom (The term “Abraham’s bosom” is found only once in the New Testament, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus) at the time, and that Jesus brought his soul back to his body. Now if Jesus wants to bring someone back, I doubt He would bring someone back who was in Hell. Whether ticked off or not, I doubt He would argue with Jesus about it after having been brought back. You don't argue with someone who has the power over life and death. lol
Good question. The wages of sin is death. Wages means payment. The result of sin. But physical death was not all Jesus saved us from. He also restates us to a condition with God the Father that we lost at the Fall. The Bible states in revelations the Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead.
2 Timothy 4:1
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:
Though death is the wages of sin, it is not the only result of sin. It doesn't really pay for sins that are committed against God, since though we are finite, and it appears to us that our sins are finite in nature, by sinning against an infinite God they take on an infinite seriousness. They are not covered by the death of an finite being, so for you then to be able to pay for your crimes so to speak you have to pay infinitely, unless you are an infinite Divine being. That is the justification I believe for Hell.
Jesus mentioned Hell a great number of times. Perhaps more times than anyone else in the Bible, so I have no option but to take Him seriously when he speaks about it. I don't dare to spiritualize considering His warnings. How it is eternal in nature. The darkness, the pain, everlasting fire and torment and so on. I don't believe in a universal salvation, where God does not punish sin in a manner that is fair, that would be a God who is less of a God. Compromising aspects of Himself.
Matt. 3:12
"And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Matt.5:29
“If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matt. 25:41,
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."
Matt. 25:46,
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The word "eternal" in both places is "aionios" which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2) without beginning; 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word "punishment" is the word "kolasis" and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering--'to punish, punishment.'"
Rev. 20:15,
"And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 2:16 am
|
|
|
|
Quote: Question 4: Isaiah:66:1~ It explains that Heaven is the throne and the earth is the footstool... Psalms:110:1~ States that Jesus will be made king by God when his enemies are placed at his feet as his footstool Revelation:12:7-12 sattes that the Dragon was hurled down to earth and warns the earth that the Dragon is here among us...So Jesus is ruling..
Quote: question 6: John:14:28 The Father is greater then I am... Mat:6:9- Our father in the heaven Would Jesus be praying to himself? It is a model prayer how to pray to God. Wouldn't Jesus had said Pray to me this way? Not Pray then this way "Our father" John:6:38~ I came to do the will of the one whom sent me.... If Jesus was God how oculd he be sent by someone? John:3:16: God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten son... His Son...referring to another person not himself... John:14:20, John 10:23~ I am the father are one...Those who have seen me have seen the father... Remember in Exodus33:20 when Moses saw the back of God's head...and came out illuminating, no one has seen the father John:1:18... Jesus Meant the apple doesn't fall far from the tree... He's like his father...Like Father like Son...
Because Jesus was also a man and as a man he was in a lower position. He was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." (Heb. 2:9). Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ."
Jesus has two natures: divine and human. Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was merely acknowledging the fact that He was also a man. Jesus is both God and man. As a man, he was in a lesser position than the Father because he had added to Himself human nature (Col. 2:9) and was made under the Law (Gal. 4:4). He became a man to die for people (1 Cor. 15:1-4).
During His trial before the Jewish leaders, the High Priest demanded of Jesus, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God” (Matthew 26:63). “’Yes, it is as you say,’ Jesus replied. ‘But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven’” (Matthew 26:64). The Jewish leaders responded by accusing Jesus of blasphemy (Matthew 26:65-66). Later, before Pontius Pilate, “The Jews insisted, ‘We have a law, and according to that law He must die, because He claimed to be the Son of God’” (John 19:7). Why would His claiming to be the Son of God be considered blasphemy and be worthy of a death sentence? The Jewish leaders understood exactly what Jesus meant by the phrase “Son of God.” To be the Son of God is to be of the same nature as God. The Son of God is “of God.” The claim to be of the same nature as God—to in fact be God—was blasphemy to the Jewish leaders; therefore, they demanded Jesus’ death, in keeping with Leviticus 24:15. Hebrews 1:3 expresses this very clearly, “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being.”
Jesus is not God’s Son in the sense of a human father and a son. God did not get married and have a son. God did not mate with Mary and, together with her, produce a son. Jesus is God’s Son in the sense that He is God made manifest in human form (John 1:1, 14). Jesus is God's Son in that He was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:35 declares, “The angel answered, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.’”
Question 4; Jesus enemies are not only Satan, but the nations and the people of earth, and they are still in rebellion against God. Satan too, and the fallen angels that where cast out from Heaven have not received the final punishment for their crimes (Revelation 20:10). If Jesus is ruling then why is Satan still free to roam about seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8.)? Why are not the guilty punished? Why is not the Kingdom come to Earth, as it is in Heaven (Matthew 6:10)? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 3:54 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 1:35 pm
|
|
|
|
Quote: My Name is *** btw...In real life aswell... What is yours? "Though death is the wages of sin, it is not the only result of sin. It doesn't really pay for sins that are committed against God, since though we are infinite, and it appears to us that our sins are finite in nature, by sinning against an infinite God they take on an infinite seriousness. They are not covered by the death of an infinite being, so for you then to be able to pay for your crimes so to speak you have to pay infinity, unless you are an infinite Divine being. That is the justification I believe for Hell." But if it says The wages of Sin...How much sin costs pays in Death...Thats it... It's paid for, also through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ are we able to pray, obtain everlasting life, be free from sickness and death, he demonstrated that through his miracles. Eccl:9:5- states that the dead are conscience of nothing at all... Nothing.... Who's to argue with something that is in black and white...plain and simple... btw...My translation of the bible is a bit different from yours so I grabbed my Greek interlinear scriptures and Mat5:29 it says in greek...Gehenna which means garbage, literally Gehenna was an actual garbage site which criminals bodies were dumped etc. and Hell in greek is Hades or Sheol in Hebrew which both translate to Grave..."Common Grave of Mankind" Jesus went to "hell" When he died Acts 2:31...He went to the Grave...just as we all do... In Revelation Rev. 14.1 it states that only 144,000 who were bought from earth can go to heaven for only they know the song... They would serve as priest in the Heaven states Rev.20.1-6, helping to judge those in the memorial tomb John 5:28 acts:24:15, Both righteous and unrighteous...
My name is Marius in real life. ^^ I believe I can say by the way you phrase things that you more than likely belong to the Jehovah's witnesses.
In revelation 7 the 144 000 are identified.
Revelation 7
English Standard Version (ESV)
The 144,000 of Israel Sealed
7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.
A Great Multitude from Every Nation
9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
As you can see by Revelation 7:9 a great multitude will be saved. So big it can't be numbered. So certainly it can't be that only 144 000 goes to Heaven.
Quote: But if it says The wages of Sin...How much sin costs pays in Death...Thats it.
If that was it then why does Hebrews 9:27 state that after death comes judgement?
Why does 2 Timothy 4:1 state that Jesus will come back to judge the living and the dead? How can He judge the dead, of they cease to exist having paid their sin with their death?
Quote: Eccl:9:5- states that the dead are conscience of nothing at all.
If you read it in context you will see that it means nothing under the sun. They will no longer partake in the things under the sun.
Eccl:94-6
4For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.
If they cease to exist on the moment of death then what do you think of this verse?
Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
What does it mean other than what it is plainly saying?
Proverbs 14:32
When calamity comes, the wicked are brought down, but even in death the righteous seek refuge in God.
John 12:26
Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.
Philippians 1:23
22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better
The body may be planted in the ground, but the spirit is elsewhere. Paul states that what is planted in the ground corruptible, but to be raised incorruptible.
1 Corinthians 15:41-42
The Resurrection Body
…41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. 42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;…
In Acts you read there will be a Resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Now if they ceased to exist upon death, then how can they be resurrected?
Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
If you read the rest of Matthew 5 you'll see that it is a place of eternal punishment. Where the flames don't go out.
Matthew 5:21-
Anger
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother[c] will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell] of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
Lust
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
The way Jesus describes Gehenna/Hell is not a place where bodies are burnt up and disappear, but a place of eternal torment.
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
Matthew 25:46
"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:29
and come out--those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
Matt. 13:41-42,
"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matt. 8:12,
"but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
So obviously Gehenna the place Israel used as a garbage dump, but a much worse place, with unquenchable fire (Jude 7). Where there is eternal torment (Rev. 19:3) (Rev. 20:10). |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 1:42 pm
|
|
|
|
From ***;
Quote: I cannot compromise with Jesus and Jehovah being the same person... I read Col:2:9...and if you keep reading it states that "God raised him up" >~< Two different people... and I'm all for using the direct Greek manuscripts. the fact that the Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) he language is the Sahidic dialect of Coptic. The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus’ earthly ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early literary form of the language. Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible, The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: “Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses.” The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, as indicated above, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O. Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: “The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English.” Hence, the Coptic translation supplies interesting evidence as to how John 1:1 would have been understood back then. What do we find? The Sahidic Coptic translation uses an indefinite article with the word “god” in the final part of John 1:1. Thus, when rendered into modern English, the translation reads: “And the Word was a god.” Evidently, those ancient translators realized that John’s words recorded at John 1:1 did not mean that Jesus was to be identified as Almighty God. The Word was a god, not Almighty God. If you don't care to read this whole thing I can summarize it for you highlighting the important parts, but I didn't want to skimp off anything for you. ***John:10:33~ states that Jesus was being stoned for blasphemy~ it goes down to verse 39 again saying that he was sent by God... He is the son of God... John 14:10 10 Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to you I do not speak of my own originality, but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works. John 17:21 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. i believe Jesus Came about through Holy spirit... Not through any other way...He was sent....By God, not God coming down to be put into her womb. Jesus is refered to as the "better Adam" His blameless and faultless blood paid for our sins through it's purity. Since Adam sinned in a perfect state Jesus had to preserve his perfect blood in behalf of us.
What kind of Bible translation do you use? I pick my verses from multiple translations, the NASB, the ESV, the NIV and sometimes the KJV.
Read the previous verses prior to John 14;10.
John 14:7-8
Oneness with the Father
7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”
8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
How do you interpret these verses not meaning that Jesus and the Father are both God?
Being the son of God is explained in the Bible as making yourself equal to God.
If you are equal to God you can't be created, you can't have a beginning, or have less power.
"For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." (John 5:18, NASB).
So you believe Jesus is a created being? A being with a beginning? That poses many difficult question.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. (Colossians 1:15)
The Greek word, prōtotokos, translated "firstborn" is not a noun, but an adjective.2 If it were really referring to being born, the verse is theologically incorrect. Adam was the firstborn man of creation (although he wasn't really born). Cain was actually the first to be actually born into the creation. Jesus was not born until thousands of year later. The word "firstborn" in this verse does not refer to a physical birth, but refers to Jesus' position to inherit the creation. In Jewish law, the firstborn inherited the lion's share of his father's estate. Jesus is to inherit the creation. It has nothing to do with being created. Verse 18 from this chapter of Colossians goes on to directly contradict Jesus being created describing Him as existing in "the beginning."3 This same verse describes Jesus as being the "firstborn from the dead" and defines Jesus as having "first place in everything," demonstrating that "firstborn" refers to position and not creation.
The scriptures, and Jesus Himself, affirmed that He was heir to the creation:
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1:16)
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; (Colossians 2:9-10)
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. (Hebrews 1:2)
YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him. (Hebrews 2:8.)
And finally to show that Jesus must be God:
Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
Why would Jesus speak Sahidic when he came from a country where the majority spoke Aramaic or Hebrew?
Palestine, given that it was always a crossroads for entire peoples in their spontaneous, and often times forced, migrations, was by necessity a multi-lingual land. It was a place where they spoke several languages at the same time. That is, in the times of Jesus, there were no less than two local languages spoken and understood by the majority of the people: Hebrew and Aramaic. Two “international” languages were also used: Greek and Latin. These however were spoken by a small group of persons found in State Administration and Education.
The Hebrew language, the same language used in writing the Books of the Old Testament, came into common usage in the Liturgy of the Shabbat (Sabbath) of the Synagogue, even though there were few who understood it clearly.
Besides Hebrew, there was another language -- Aramaic -- which had already been used along side for some centuries. This language was the “familiar” language which the people spoke in most of the villages and towns of Palestine, particularly in the North (Nazareth, Capharnaum, etc.) Where Jesus was educated, grew up, and spent the major portion of His life. It was also understood and spoken outside the confines of this region.
Besides the “local” languages, there were two other “international” languages. These two languages were spoken in the towns where there were persons of learning, and administrators of the State, as numerous inscriptions of the times have testified and come down to us. While in the villages such as Nazareth and Capharnaum, the dominant language, if not the only one, was Aramaic.
One incident recorded in the Gospel of Luke (Luke 4: 16-30) helps us understand tha the Hebrew language was familiar to Jesus. In this passage, it says that Jesus read the Scroll of the Law (from the Prophet Isaiah) in the Synagogue at Nazareth. Certainly this Reading was done in Hebrew. The few words that Jesus added by way of comment were most probably spoken in Aramaic. A little like our Church, before the liturgy was reformed, when the Readings were proclaimed in Latin but the Homily was given in the native language of the people.
This, therefore, was the atmosphere in which Jesus grew up. It was a multi-lingual environment in which ********* and Aramaic had to at least have the advantage of usage in the ordinary conversations of daily life.
The Palestinian Substructure
Besides these logical deductions, derived from Gospel texts and common sense, there are other elements -- quite “probable” in our view -- that allow us to reconstruct the Mid-Eastern Cultural Foundation, and thus. . . some Aramaic words and phrases spoken by Jesus.
The New Testament, written in Greek, allows us a glimpse, here and there, among the transcribed and translated words, of genuine Palestinian “root” words. This is the case with a number of proper names, whether of persons or places, that easily go back to Aramaic origins. For example: Bariona, Barabba. Names of persons, clearly of Aramaic origin, composed of the word bar which means son, with the addition of the name of the father. Or, Capharnaum translated, although with some difficulty, from the form Kafar Nahum, the Village of Nahum, or also the name Aceldama, as found in the Book of Acts 1:19, which unites two words Haquel dema, that is “Camp of Blood.”
There are also names of women: Marta (Luke 10:38-, and Tabita (Acts 9:36) which mean respectively: Madame (or Woman), and Gazelle. (These were well-known and frequently used names in the times of Jesus, taken from Aramaic.) The name of Peter -- Cefa -- corresponds to the Aramaic form of Kefa which means Rock. The name Golgata (Matt. 27:33), and Gabbata (John 19:13) recalling the accounts of the Passion, are derived from two words with the sense of “(place of) the skull” and “the elevated place.”
The Words certainly spoken by Jesus
Some words that the Evangelists put into the mouth of Jesus turn out to be very interesting. For example: Effeta or Effata ( the Command form of the word patah with the meaning of to to open) is faithfully written down by the Evangelists. Or, Talita Qum which means: Arise little child! Also Abba (Mark 14:36 and Gal. 4:6) which means Papa/Father, and is still used in present-day Israel. Recall the Aramaic phrase so well recorded by the Evangelists, and spoken by Jesus as He was dying on the Cross: Eloi Eloi lema sabactani. These Words, found in the Gospels of Matthew and Mark, are interpreted for us as a Prayer of Jesus. They were in fact the beginning of Psalm 22, spoken by Jesus in Aramaic, and faithfully written down by the Evangelists in Greek. It is possible that the Evangelists wished to preserve and hand down through their writings some words certainly spoken by Jesus, words which the Early Christians (since they spoke Aramaic) faithfully remembered.
Scarcely had the words been written down when there were some that were justly counted among the words “certainly” spoken by Jesus. Linguistic analysis and comparisons of contemporary Aramaic dialects with that of Jesus confirm this.
Jesus spoke Aramaic in Galilee
In the light of this data, the hypothesis -- often aired in the last two centuries -- that Jesus spoke Greek or Latin is impossible to accept. Or better yet, anyone who would wish to hold such an hypothesis must prove it. Specialists of the Aramaic language have analyzed closely this topic, and had come to distinguish various Aramaic dialects in the contemporary Palestine of Jesus as testified to by inscriptions thus discovered. B Based on this data, they are able to distinguish seven dialects that were shared by seven different localities in this small region: 1. Aramaic of Judea. 2. Aramaic of Southern Judea. 3. Aramaic of Samaria. 4. Aramaic of Galilee. 5. Aramaic from beyond Jordan. 6. Aramaic from Damascus. Aramaic spoken in the Orontes River Basin of Syria.
It is a question about a relatively restricted region that would now embrace the actual area of the present State of Israel, and parts of the bordering countries of Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. Also if this distinction seems a bit artificial, nevertheless it becomes quite clear that there were local differences in the Aramaic language. These changes did not affect the mutual comprehension of the inhabitants of the different localities (realizing that the distance between these various localities was small and contact was frequent).
Jesus certainly spoke the Aramaic dialect of Galilee, but His words were “Jerusalem-ized”, so to speak, for the Early Church, and transmitted to us in the dialect of Jerusalem. It is well recorded that the difference between the Jerusalem and Galilee dialects was small and, all things considered, quite negligible.
A theme that impassions students has been the reconstruction of the “Our Father.” It is thought that Jesus had taught this prayer in his own language, and therefore in Aramaic. Nonetheless, in the Gospels, it is the Greek version that remained for Christians of Gentile origin as well as the Primitive Church of Jerusalem. Though the Church of Jerusalem, which spoke Aramaic, continued to recite it in the original language without feeling any necessity to put it down in writing.
These brief considerations show us that Jesus, Son of His times and His earth, did not disdain to immerse Himself in the language and culture in which He lived.
I know why you bring up the Sahidic Coptic Bible; it is an early translation of a language that has a indefinite article (Greek does not). Further more the translation uses the indefinite article in John 1:1c so it apears to say; "and the word (Jesus) was a God." Does this provide support that the JWs understand John 1:1 the same way as the early Christians did? It is possible that the JWs are correct about the Coptic text and some early Christians would have believed. Nevertheless it does not seem probably given what else we know about early Christianity and the Divinity of Jesus. In fact, the historic Coptic Church fully embraced the Nicene Creed, penned by an Egyptian church father Athanesius, which explicitly states that Jesus is fully God - "True God from true God."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 3:41 am
|
|
|
|
Anon Garland-Green Question 4; Jesus enemies are not only Satan, but the nations and the people of earth, and they are still in rebellion against God. Satan too, and the fallen angels that where cast out from Heaven have not received the final punishment for their crimes (Revelation 20:10). If Jesus is ruling then why is Satan still free to roam about seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8.)? Why are not the guilty punished? Why is not the Kingdom come to Earth, as it is in Heaven (Matthew 6:10)? Jesus is ruling in Heaven...the Heavens are clean from Satan's wickedness... but he is on earth.
Isn't that proof to you that Jesus is God? Would God give up His glory to any other being? Would He give up the throne to someone else?
Isaiah 42:8
8 I am the Lord; that is My name. And My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.
Isaiah 66:1
This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.
Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 5:21 am
|
|
|
|
Garland-Green Jesus is God, but the answer needs to be expounded upon. When we say that Jesus is God we're using the term "God" in reference to the divine nature. But we have to be careful because we don't want to say Jesus is God and fail to understand that God is a Trinity. The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that God exists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So, we have to be careful when we ask if Jesus is God because we have to be clear in the answer. If God is a Trinity and we say Jesus is God, then we are saying that Jesus is a Trinity. But that is not true. So in one sense the term "God" can be used to designate the totality of God as a Trinity, and in another sense it deals with the divine nature. The correct answer is that Jesus is both divine and human. In other words, he is both God and man. God has a divine nature, and Jesus possesses the divine nature as well as the human nature. This dual nature characteristic is called the hypostatic union. We know that Jesus is God in flesh because the Bible says many things declaring this. For example, John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. John 1:14, "and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..." John 8:24, "unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I am." Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” Col. 2:9, "for in him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form." Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son he [The Father] says, 'You're throne, O God, is forever and ever.'" After Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead, Thomas, one of the disciples, doubted that he had risen. Jesus appears to him and Thomas responds by saying to Jesus "my Lord and my God," (John 20:28.). Jesus makes no correction to Thomas about this. Titus 2:13 tells us to wait for the coming of "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." In John 5:18 it says that Jesus "was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." It is clear from the Scriptures that Jesus is considered to be God in flesh; that is, he is considered to be divine. The reason is because without Jesus being both God and man, he could not make a sacrifice of sufficient value to please God the Father. If he were not a man, he would not be able to die for the sins of mankind. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 12:43 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
