Theodicy, God and Suffering - A debate

[Garland-Green]

Theodicy, God and Suffering - A debate between Dinesh D'Souza and Bart Ehrman

Comment on Ehrmans problem of the prophets vs the Book of Job.
Bart say the two are in conflict with one another in terms of how it explains suffering, claiming it has the be one or the other. Suffering either has to be by God's hand punishing people through war, famine and droughts, or God's people suffering having done nothing particular that merits suffering. Both can be true. Living in a fallen world that is at odds with God, and an active opponent of God walking about it is not unlikely to experience suffering if you belong to God. Being made in the image of God we are more than likely targets of the Devils anger and hatred towards God. Our first encounter with him is in the garden of Eden where he tricks man, making him question God and disobey his Creator.

So we see he has a history of wanting to inflict damage (irreversible damage preferably) and pain on Man.
It may be that this is the best way of as many as possible to come to know God. We know God can turn evil into good. See the history about Joseph (Genesis 37 - Genesis 41).


Does Evil and Suffering Disprove God's Existence?

On the Tsunami Bart asked who's free will caused that. Adam's free will in a sense. Through one man sin entered into the world, and we are living in a sinful fallen world. Creation itself fell along side Adam, and so I believe we can say that though the tsunami was not necessarily caused by the sins of those who died in it, we can say that free will was involved.

Romans:21-22
…that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

It could also be the free will of Satan that is the cause of natural disaster.
Satan and the fallen angels obviously are free to choose their actions though they conflict with God's will. Who is Satan the opponent of? Though I see it as likely that they are the indirect cause, Adam's fall and creations fall with him being the direct cause.


[Working link(s) April 9th 2016. Please notify us of broken links and inaccurate content.]  

[Garland-Green]

"Why does God not do anything with the problem of suffering? He is all love, and he obviously like you don't like to see people suffer."

He did. He offered everyone a way out through His son. Those that put their trust in Jesus, and their hope are told that some time in the future there will be no more pain and suffering. That He is not doing something about it here and now is a good thing, because He is patiently waiting on people to accept the message. If He did something about it here and now, then that would mean this is judgement day. That is bad news for those who do not believe (Revelation 21:4).  

[Garland-Green]

"Most Christians believe that God intervenes in their life to set things right, and to fix suffering... If that is the case then why doesn't God intervene more often?"

First of all that the majority believes something doesn't make it true. What does the Bible say?

John 16:33
"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

Acts 14:22
strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God," they said.

Acts 9:16
I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

2 Corinthians 12:1-10
New International Version (NIV)
Paul’s Vision and His Thorn

12 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say, 7 or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.  

[Garland-Green]

Job 27
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Job Affirms His Righteousness

27 Then Job [a]continued his discourse and said,

2 “As God lives, who has taken away my right,
And the Almighty, who has embittered my soul,
3 For as long as life is in me,
And the [c]breath of God is in my nostrils,
4 My lips certainly will not speak unjustly,
Nor will my tongue mutter deceit.
5 “Far be it from me that I should declare you right;
Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me.
6 “I hold fast my righteousness and will not let it go.
My heart does not reproach any of my days.
The State of the Godless

7 “May my enemy be as the wicked
And [d]my opponent as the unjust.
8 “For what is the hope of the godless [e]when he is cut off,
When God requires his [f]life?
9 “Will God hear his cry
When distress comes upon him?
10 “Will he take delight in the Almighty?
Will he call on God at all times?
11 “I will instruct you in the [g]power of God;
What is with the Almighty I will not conceal.
12 “Behold, all of you have seen it;
Why then do you [h]act foolishly?
13 “This is the portion of a wicked man from God,
And the inheritance which tyrants receive from the Almighty.
14 “Though his sons are many, they are destined for the sword;
And his descendants will not be satisfied with bread.
15 “His survivors will be buried because of the plague,
And [j]their widows will not be able to weep.
16 “Though he piles up silver like dust
And prepares garments as plentiful as the clay,
17 He may prepare it, but the just will wear it
And the innocent will divide the silver.
18 “He has built his house like the [k]spider’s web,
Or as a hut which the watchman has made.
19 “He lies down rich, but never [l]again;
He opens his eyes, and it is no longer.
20 “Terrors overtake him like a flood;
A tempest steals him away in the night.
21 “The east wind carries him away, and he is gone,
For it whirls him away from his place.
22 “For it will hurl at him without sparing;
He will surely try to flee from its [m]power.
23 “Men will clap their hands at him
And will hiss him from his place.
Footnotes:

Job 27:1 Or again took up
Job 27:3 Lit breath
Job 27:3 Or spirit
Job 27:7 Lit he who rises up against me
Job 27:8 Or though he gains
Job 27:8 Lit soul
Job 27:11 Lit hand
Job 27:12 Or speak vanity
Job 27:14 Lit the sword is for them
Job 27:15 So ancient versions; Heb his
Job 27:18 So ancient versions; Heb moth
Job 27:19 So ancient versions; Heb will be gathered
Job 27:22 Lit hand  

[Garland-Green]

Job 32
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Elihu in Anger Rebukes Job

32 Then these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned because he justified himself [a]before God. 3 And his anger burned against his three friends because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job. 4 Now Elihu had waited to speak to Job because they were years older than he. 5 And when Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of the three men his anger burned.

6 So Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite [c]spoke out and said,

“I am young in years and you are old;
Therefore I was shy and afraid to tell you [d]what I think.
7 “I [e]thought [f]age should speak,
And [g]increased years should teach wisdom.
8 “But it is a spirit in man,
And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.
9 “The [h]abundant in years may not be wise,
Nor may elders understand justice.
10 “So I say, ‘Listen to me,
I too will tell [j]what I think.’
11 “Behold, I waited for your words,
I listened to your reasonings,
While you [k]pondered what to say.
12 “I even paid close attention to you;
[l]Indeed, there was no one who refuted Job,
Not one of you who answered his words.
13 “Do not say,
‘We have found wisdom;
God will [m]rout him, not man.’
14 “For he has not arranged his words against me,
Nor will I reply to him with your [n]arguments.
15 “They are dismayed, they no longer answer;
Words have [o]failed them.
16 “Shall I wait, because they do not speak,
Because they [p]stop and no longer answer?
17 “I too will answer my share,
I also will tell my opinion.
18 “For I am full of words;
The spirit within me constrains me.
19 “Behold, my belly is like unvented wine,
Like new wineskins it is about to burst.
20 “Let me speak that I may get relief;
Let me open my lips and answer.
21 “Let me now be partial to no one,
Nor flatter any man.
22 “For I do not know how to flatter,
Else my Maker would soon take me away.
Footnotes:

Job 32:2 Or more than
Job 32:4 Lit for Job with words; or possibly while they were speaking with Job
Job 32:6 Lit answered
Job 32:6 Lit my knowledge
Job 32:7 Lit said
Job 32:7 Lit days
Job 32:7 Lit many
Job 32:9 Or nobles
Job 32:10 Or said
Job 32:10 Lit my knowledge
Job 32:11 Lit searched out words
Job 32:12 Lit Behold
Job 32:13 Lit drive away
Job 32:14 Lit words
Job 32:15 Lit moved away from
Job 32:16 Lit stand  

[Garland-Green]

Job 33
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Elihu Claims to Speak for God

33 “However now, Job, please hear my speech,
And listen to all my words.
2 “Behold now, I open my mouth,
My tongue in my [a]mouth speaks.
3 “My words are from the uprightness of my heart,
And my lips speak knowledge sincerely.
4 “The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
5 “Refute me if you can;
Array yourselves before me, take your stand.
6 “Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been [c]formed out of the clay.
7 “Behold, no fear of me should terrify you,
Nor should my pressure weigh heavily on you.
8 “Surely you have spoken in my hearing,
And I have heard the sound of your words:
9 ‘I am pure, without transgression;
I am innocent and there is no guilt in me.
10 ‘Behold, He [d]invents pretexts against me;
He counts me as His enemy.
11 ‘He puts my feet in the stocks;
He watches all my paths.’
12 “Behold, let me [e]tell you, you are not right in this,
For God is greater than man.
13 “Why do you complain against Him
That He does not give an account of all His doings?
14 “Indeed God speaks once,
Or twice, yet no one notices it.
15 “In a dream, a vision of the night,
When sound sleep falls on men,
While they slumber in their beds,
16 Then He opens the ears of men,
And seals their instruction,
17 That He may turn man aside from his conduct,
And [f]keep man from pride;
18 He keeps back his soul from the pit,
And his life from [g]passing over into Sheol.
19 “[h]Man is also chastened with pain on his bed,
And with unceasing complaint in his bones;
20 So that his life loathes bread,
And his soul favorite food.
21 “His flesh wastes away from sight,
And his bones which were not seen stick out.
22 “Then his soul draws near to the pit,
And his life to those who bring death.
23 “If there is an angel as mediator for him,
One out of a thousand,
To remind a man what is right for him,
24 Then let him be gracious to him, and say,
‘Deliver him from going down to the pit,
I have found a ransom’;
25 Let his flesh become fresher than in youth,
Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor;
26 Then he will pray to God, and He will accept him,
That he may see His face with joy,
And He may restore His righteousness to man.
27 “He will sing to men and say,
‘I have sinned and perverted what is right,
And it is not proper for me.
28 ‘He has redeemed my soul from going to the pit,
And my life shall see the light.’
29 “Behold, God does all these [j]oftentimes with men,
30 To bring back his soul from the pit,
That he may be enlightened with the light of life.
31 “Pay attention, O Job, listen to me;
Keep silent, and let me speak.
32 “Then if [k]you have anything to say, answer me;
Speak, for I desire to justify you.
33 “If not, listen to me;
Keep silent, and I will teach you wisdom.”
Footnotes:

Job 33:2 Lit palate
Job 33:4 Heb Shaddai
Job 33:6 Lit cut out of
Job 33:10 Lit finds
Job 33:12 Lit answer
Job 33:17 Lit hide
Job 33:18 M.T. perishing by the sword
Job 33:19 Lit He
Job 33:23 Lit his uprightness
Job 33:29 Lit twice, three times
Job 33:32 Lit there are words  

[Garland-Green]

Job 34
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Elihu Vindicates God’s Justice

34 Then Elihu continued and said,

2 “Hear my words, you wise men,
And listen to me, you who know.
3 “For the ear tests words
As the palate tastes food.
4 “Let us choose for ourselves what is right;
Let us know among ourselves what is good.
5 “For Job has said, ‘I am righteous,
But God has taken away my right;
6 [a]Should I lie concerning my right?
My wound is incurable, though I am without transgression.’
7 “What man is like Job,
Who drinks up derision like water,
8 Who goes in company with the workers of iniquity,
And walks with wicked men?
9 “For he has said, ‘It profits a man nothing
When he [c]is pleased with God.’
10 “Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding.
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to do wrong.
11 “For He pays a man according to his work,
And makes [d]him find it according to his way.
12 “Surely, God will not act wickedly,
And the Almighty will not pervert justice.
13 “Who gave Him authority over the earth?
And who has laid on Him the whole world?
14 “If He should [e]determine to do so,
If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.
16 “But if you have understanding, hear this;
Listen to the sound of my words.
17 “Shall one who hates justice rule?
And will you condemn the righteous mighty One,
18 Who says to a king, ‘Worthless one,’
To nobles, ‘Wicked ones’;
19 Who shows no partiality to princes
Nor regards the rich above the poor,
For they all are the work of His hands?
20 “In a moment they die, and at midnight
People are shaken and pass away,
And the mighty are taken away without a hand.
21 “For His eyes are upon the ways of a man,
And He sees all his steps.
22 “There is no darkness or deep shadow
Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.
23 “For He does not need to consider a man further,
That he should go before God in judgment.
24 “He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
And sets others in their place.
25 “Therefore He knows their works,
And He overthrows them in the night,
And they are crushed.
26 “He strikes them like the wicked
[f]In a public place,
27 Because they turned aside from following Him,
And had no regard for any of His ways;
28 So that they caused the cry of the poor to come to Him,
And that He might hear the cry of the afflicted—
29 When He keeps quiet, who then can condemn?
And when He hides His face, who then can behold Him,
That is, in regard to both nation and man?—
30 So that godless men would not rule
Nor be snares of the people.
31 “For has anyone said to God,
‘I have borne chastisement;
I will not offend anymore;
32 Teach me what I do not see;
If I have done iniquity,
I will not do it again’?
33 “Shall He recompense on your terms, because you have rejected it?
For you must choose, and not I;
Therefore declare what you know.
34 “Men of understanding will say to me,
And a wise man who hears me,
35 ‘Job speaks without knowledge,
And his words are without wisdom.
36 ‘Job ought to be tried [g]to the limit,
Because he answers like wicked men.
37 ‘For he adds rebellion to his sin;
He claps his hands among us,
And multiplies his words against God.’”
Footnotes:

Job 34:6 Or Although I am right I am accounted a liar
Job 34:6 Lit arrow
Job 34:9 Or takes delight in God
Job 34:11 Lit a man
Job 34:14 Lit set His mind on Himself
Job 34:26 Lit In the place of the ones seeing
Job 34:36 Or to the end

The verses Bart Ehrman skipped.