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servivigiledeus

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:52 am
i'm a reformed homosexual and so i can say a thing or two about this topic, god called us to tolerate everyone, and though he may not have hurt anyone even jesus drove the moneychangers out with rage, so it's always going to be a circumstantial thing, if you happen across a gay rights rally and they get all up in your face pushing their views on you then it's time to speak against the evil that has come to you,
if you see a male in woman's clothing walking on his own thinking about lunch then barring a respectful introduction and an invitation to conversation, perhaps they are better left on their way. you have to let the holy spirit from the word guide you in these things, when it comes to tolerance,the question is what is right to tolerate and when is it righteous to take a stand, but no matter what happens a spirit of forgiveness and unconditional love are necessary.
as for acceptance, there is no acceptance for homosexuality, god loves us all no matter what we do, but there is no blessing for lying with one's own gender, if anything, such behaviors might cause one to lose Eashoa's support, since god himself thinks it's gross, something none of us can afford to do. we are all sinners, and we must be careful not to judge a person no mattter what they might be doing wrong, certainly, god loves them, and wants them to return to his love, therefore though tolerance and acceptance are not required for every circumstance, love is always necessary for righteousness sake. therefore never wage war with your neighbor, thinking the lord will cause you to win, because the lord sends aid to the weak and crushes the mighty.  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:16 am
Yongyuan Ai Ni
I belong to the ELCA a liberal denomination of Christianity. We believe that we're all God's Children and support LGBT Rights.

http://www.elca.org/Faith/Faith-and-Society/Social-Statements/Human-Sexuality

That's the link for more information ♥

ugh way to put a frosting of fascism of your faith cake there sweety poo, but i'm pretty sure god can't be found in a racist party founded by the kkk. that party is the Hegelian dialectic that divides over race and sexuality, and it's just how they want it. it's all too deep to go into, i just don't have the time, but look up the hegelian dialectic and you'll see what i'm talking about.
further as a reformed homosexual of many years i can tell you, not only is homosexuality a choice, it's one founded on self loathing, ie poor self esteem,
people like that use others as a crutch for their identity, they don't think they are impressive enough a person to shine on their own so they believe mistakenly that joining a community of people who are very open and public about their agenda to push homosexuality into the elementary schools, and to have people arrested for quoting the bible, will give them strength of character in the eyes of their peers, largely because this is what the lgbt agenda is about, not tolerance, but acceptance.
if you don't think this reprobate behaviour is a healthy normal expression, then you are evil and deserving of violent action, in the eyes of that demonic spirit.
this spirit, that is the collective processes that give animation to the lgbt community, is the very thing those who place themselves under this banner hope to invoke for strength, the idea that if someone challenges your stance, that more people will take up your side, because their faith in their own voice is lost to the will of the many.
please don't ever ask an entity of love like myself to take up a cause of self hatred, because it is painful to even speak of such things, and no righteous cause can be found there for true love of the self.
people say god loves all kinds of love, this is true, but the self loathing that causes one to stumble god hates, not the sinner mind you, the sin, the hate.  

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:12 am
With me, personally, I believe the Bible is clear on the homosexuality issue. By going down Romans 1, it does say that it is basically sinful. Now, I must say that I cannot support in the homosexuality movement because that would be encouraging them to sin.

But do I hate them or am I intolerant? No. I love them that I want them come to saving faith of the Lord Jesus Christ. However, I believe that Homosexuality is only a symptom of the cause. The cause is that we have a sinful nature, and if it is leading us, it will go down the road to destruction.

Here is a question: Would we support people to lie? Or to steal? What about kill? Or even to blaspheme God? I hope the answer is no. But sometimes we focus on the fruit instead of dealing with the root.  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:29 am
servivigiledeus
i'm a reformed homosexual and so i can say a thing or two about this topic, god called us to tolerate everyone, and though he may not have hurt anyone even jesus drove the moneychangers out with rage, so it's always going to be a circumstantial thing, if you happen across a gay rights rally and they get all up in your face pushing their views on you then it's time to speak against the evil that has come to you,
if you see a male in woman's clothing walking on his own thinking about lunch then barring a respectful introduction and an invitation to conversation, perhaps they are better left on their way. you have to let the holy spirit from the word guide you in these things, when it comes to tolerance,the question is what is right to tolerate and when is it righteous to take a stand, but no matter what happens a spirit of forgiveness and unconditional love are necessary.
as for acceptance, there is no acceptance for homosexuality, god loves us all no matter what we do, but there is no blessing for lying with one's own gender, if anything, such behaviors might cause one to lose Eashoa's support, since god himself thinks it's gross, something none of us can afford to do. we are all sinners, and we must be careful not to judge a person no mattter what they might be doing wrong, certainly, god loves them, and wants them to return to his love, therefore though tolerance and acceptance are not required for every circumstance, love is always necessary for righteousness sake. therefore never wage war with your neighbor, thinking the lord will cause you to win, because the lord sends aid to the weak and crushes the mighty.


I want to thank you for sharing your testimony regarding homosexuality, brother. I'm glad that the LORD has helped you. 3nodding
 

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servivigiledeus

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:42 pm
Scarlet_Teardrops
servivigiledeus
i'm a reformed homosexual and so i can say a thing or two about this topic, god called us to tolerate everyone, and though he may not have hurt anyone even jesus drove the moneychangers out with rage, so it's always going to be a circumstantial thing, if you happen across a gay rights rally and they get all up in your face pushing their views on you then it's time to speak against the evil that has come to you,
if you see a male in woman's clothing walking on his own thinking about lunch then barring a respectful introduction and an invitation to conversation, perhaps they are better left on their way. you have to let the holy spirit from the word guide you in these things, when it comes to tolerance,the question is what is right to tolerate and when is it righteous to take a stand, but no matter what happens a spirit of forgiveness and unconditional love are necessary.
as for acceptance, there is no acceptance for homosexuality, god loves us all no matter what we do, but there is no blessing for lying with one's own gender, if anything, such behaviors might cause one to lose Eashoa's support, since god himself thinks it's gross, something none of us can afford to do. we are all sinners, and we must be careful not to judge a person no mattter what they might be doing wrong, certainly, god loves them, and wants them to return to his love, therefore though tolerance and acceptance are not required for every circumstance, love is always necessary for righteousness sake. therefore never wage war with your neighbor, thinking the lord will cause you to win, because the lord sends aid to the weak and crushes the mighty.


I want to thank you for sharing your testimony regarding homosexuality, brother. I'm glad that the LORD has helped you. 3nodding
it's my pleasure friend. it is this exact paradigm of thinking god will back punishing sinners that empowers groups of the lost legions, giving them due karma for undue negativity. in scripture homosex is condemned as an abomination, however to judge is also condemned, the law isn't made so you can look at others through it, it's so you can examine yourself. as christians we are under grace and the law won't destroy us, but it's usefulness as a guide to righteousness is untold, loving Eashoa it is impossible to not want in your heart to adhere to his will to perfection, although the flesh drives us other ways. eventually all death in the flesh will die and perfection in the spirit will come by the grace of Eashoa. to be sure homosex is unhealthy, and problematic, for me these are secondary to the fact that it disturbs the man who died and returned for my sake, surely all things are lawful, and not all things are beneficial, but even more important is that it grieves the one true king of man, the grand carpenter of the universe himself. that is why i have changed, now because my love for Eahsoa is so great, many other sins that had found their space in the absence of that love have been completely washed away, before i found the love of jesus i was a cigarette smoking alcoholic, an opiate addict, homosexual, and pagan. i don't need all that garbage to feel justified anymore, love myself unconditionally as i have gained gods own pardon and it will never fail. because i love myself it is then possible to also appreciate others just for being, and to love the god who made us all all the more and so. thus the lord reaps where he did not sow and the loop feeds itself endlessly, and so, for the glory of the kingdom, i am growing toward perfection in the law. this is the final step for every human, and when you know what it is you are headed toward when you trust Eashoa, it then becomes the greatest pleasure to live for him. may Eashoa bless you in truth  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:06 pm
servivigiledeus
Scarlet_Teardrops
servivigiledeus
i'm a reformed homosexual and so i can say a thing or two about this topic, god called us to tolerate everyone, and though he may not have hurt anyone even jesus drove the moneychangers out with rage, so it's always going to be a circumstantial thing, if you happen across a gay rights rally and they get all up in your face pushing their views on you then it's time to speak against the evil that has come to you,
if you see a male in woman's clothing walking on his own thinking about lunch then barring a respectful introduction and an invitation to conversation, perhaps they are better left on their way. you have to let the holy spirit from the word guide you in these things, when it comes to tolerance,the question is what is right to tolerate and when is it righteous to take a stand, but no matter what happens a spirit of forgiveness and unconditional love are necessary.
as for acceptance, there is no acceptance for homosexuality, god loves us all no matter what we do, but there is no blessing for lying with one's own gender, if anything, such behaviors might cause one to lose Eashoa's support, since god himself thinks it's gross, something none of us can afford to do. we are all sinners, and we must be careful not to judge a person no mattter what they might be doing wrong, certainly, god loves them, and wants them to return to his love, therefore though tolerance and acceptance are not required for every circumstance, love is always necessary for righteousness sake. therefore never wage war with your neighbor, thinking the lord will cause you to win, because the lord sends aid to the weak and crushes the mighty.


I want to thank you for sharing your testimony regarding homosexuality, brother. I'm glad that the LORD has helped you. 3nodding
it's my pleasure friend. it is this exact paradigm of thinking god will back punishing sinners that empowers groups of the lost legions, giving them due karma for undue negativity. in scripture homosex is condemned as an abomination, however to judge is also condemned, the law isn't made so you can look at others through it, it's so you can examine yourself. as christians we are under grace and the law won't destroy us, but it's usefulness as a guide to righteousness is untold, loving Eashoa it is impossible to not want in your heart to adhere to his will to perfection, although the flesh drives us other ways. eventually all death in the flesh will die and perfection in the spirit will come by the grace of Eashoa. to be sure homosex is unhealthy, and problematic, for me these are secondary to the fact that it disturbs the man who died and returned for my sake, surely all things are lawful, and not all things are beneficial, but even more important is that it grieves the one true king of man, the grand carpenter of the universe himself. that is why i have changed, now because my love for Eahsoa is so great, many other sins that had found their space in the absence of that love have been completely washed away, before i found the love of jesus i was a cigarette smoking alcoholic, an opiate addict, homosexual, and pagan. i don't need all that garbage to feel justified anymore, love myself unconditionally as i have gained gods own pardon and it will never fail. because i love myself it is then possible to also appreciate others just for being, and to love the god who made us all all the more and so. thus the lord reaps where he did not sow and the loop feeds itself endlessly, and so, for the glory of the kingdom, i am growing toward perfection in the law. this is the final step for every human, and when you know what it is you are headed toward when you trust Eashoa, it then becomes the greatest pleasure to live for him. may Eashoa bless you in truth
I am joining Scarlet_Teardrops in thanking you. It is always a blessing to hear someones testimony. I think, that in these times it is the kind of testimony people need to hear. People in our time have put a limit on who God is, and what He is capable of doing. If you are born with an inclination, be it towards homosexuality or what ever it is believed to be deeply ingrained in a person - and society is quick to say that God can't change it. That is not God as He has revealed Himself to us. God bless you!  

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Scarlet_Teardrops

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:30 pm
servivigiledeus
Scarlet_Teardrops
servivigiledeus
i'm a reformed homosexual and so i can say a thing or two about this topic, god called us to tolerate everyone, and though he may not have hurt anyone even jesus drove the moneychangers out with rage, so it's always going to be a circumstantial thing, if you happen across a gay rights rally and they get all up in your face pushing their views on you then it's time to speak against the evil that has come to you,
if you see a male in woman's clothing walking on his own thinking about lunch then barring a respectful introduction and an invitation to conversation, perhaps they are better left on their way. you have to let the holy spirit from the word guide you in these things, when it comes to tolerance,the question is what is right to tolerate and when is it righteous to take a stand, but no matter what happens a spirit of forgiveness and unconditional love are necessary.
as for acceptance, there is no acceptance for homosexuality, god loves us all no matter what we do, but there is no blessing for lying with one's own gender, if anything, such behaviors might cause one to lose Eashoa's support, since god himself thinks it's gross, something none of us can afford to do. we are all sinners, and we must be careful not to judge a person no mattter what they might be doing wrong, certainly, god loves them, and wants them to return to his love, therefore though tolerance and acceptance are not required for every circumstance, love is always necessary for righteousness sake. therefore never wage war with your neighbor, thinking the lord will cause you to win, because the lord sends aid to the weak and crushes the mighty.


I want to thank you for sharing your testimony regarding homosexuality, brother. I'm glad that the LORD has helped you. 3nodding
it's my pleasure friend. it is this exact paradigm of thinking god will back punishing sinners that empowers groups of the lost legions, giving them due karma for undue negativity. in scripture homosex is condemned as an abomination, however to judge is also condemned, the law isn't made so you can look at others through it, it's so you can examine yourself. as christians we are under grace and the law won't destroy us, but it's usefulness as a guide to righteousness is untold, loving Eashoa it is impossible to not want in your heart to adhere to his will to perfection, although the flesh drives us other ways. eventually all death in the flesh will die and perfection in the spirit will come by the grace of Eashoa. to be sure homosex is unhealthy, and problematic, for me these are secondary to the fact that it disturbs the man who died and returned for my sake, surely all things are lawful, and not all things are beneficial, but even more important is that it grieves the one true king of man, the grand carpenter of the universe himself. that is why i have changed, now because my love for Eahsoa is so great, many other sins that had found their space in the absence of that love have been completely washed away, before i found the love of jesus i was a cigarette smoking alcoholic, an opiate addict, homosexual, and pagan. i don't need all that garbage to feel justified anymore, love myself unconditionally as i have gained gods own pardon and it will never fail. because i love myself it is then possible to also appreciate others just for being, and to love the god who made us all all the more and so. thus the lord reaps where he did not sow and the loop feeds itself endlessly, and so, for the glory of the kingdom, i am growing toward perfection in the law. this is the final step for every human, and when you know what it is you are headed toward when you trust Eashoa, it then becomes the greatest pleasure to live for him. may Eashoa bless you in truth


May He continue to conform you into His image. Blessings to you! ^_^
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:30 am
personally i don not like the "gay" lifestyle. as it stands with me, the person, though living in sin, is loved by God. i believe that, and i can be wrong this is just my belief, that while living in this lifestyle of sin they cannot enter the kingdom of God. i argue this because while they may claim to belief the bible, and they may, they however do not abide by it. God has made is stance on the matter clear. i personally have nothing against them. i will try and witness to them if the opportunity presents itself. i however will not stand for one of them hitting on me and if the situation arises where this may happen i state my opinion. i have truely no problem with the people and i sort of pitty them.  

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:23 am
Wow, everyone has very solid arguments! It's pleasing to read everything as it goes on.
In my opinion, homossexuality is a sin, but we can't disrespect them because we're sinners as well.
And about christian homossexuals: I don't agree with this because after accepting Jesus in our lives, we're supposed to avoid any kind of sin and to follow his teachings...  
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:38 am
I'm going to be of the different sort.

I honestly can't bring myself to believe that homosexuality is a sin. I've read and debated it for many years on Gaia and elsewhere and there is nothing that convinces me that it's a sin. I've read the OT, disputed the meaning of toevah (It does not mean sin, nor abomination. It simply means ritually unclean.A lot of things are ritually unclean, like eating shellfish or having sex during your wife's menstrual cycle. Or having someone on their menstrual cycle in the same house or town.)

Even when I used the title of Christian, I couldn't bring myself to believe that homosexuality is a sin. God is the creator, saying anyone is sinful simply by being who they are and loving who they love would make God to be a hypocrite. And to me that's blasphemy of the highest order. You're denying God's abilities at that point.

And really if you look at 40 years ago, interracial marriage was once considered a sin according to many Christians in the US. This article actually explains the subject of interracial marriage and even goes as far to call it unnatural.This one is an actual I dunno book or something about segregation in the Bible. I don't know when it was exactly written.

When
Loving v. Virginia made interracial marriage legal in the US, it changed a lot of Churches tunes. There was one such Church in Georgia, I believe that apologized a few years ago for the stances it made 40 years ago. It was featured in Time Magazine.

However the scary part is that you still have people that either say interracial marriage is wrong, a sin or unnatural. *cough* Kinists *cough*

So really, it's not up to mere humans to determine what's a sin. I don't care if it says it in the Bible. The Bible also says to not judge and that only sinless person who can judge would be Jesus. It's not our place to say they're sinful. They could lead celibate lives and not have sex. (Catholic Catchechism calls on both the LGBTQA and heterosexual parishioners to abstain from sex unless they're married.)

Maybe it's time that we stop pretending that we're suddenly Jesus and just leave it up to God.It doesn't matter what we think or feel on the subject. If you think God is going to judge someone for having a different sexual orientation, then great. I just can't accept that vision of God because it's unbiblical. It's unChrist-like. And I never will accept that. I've had that view pretty much pushed on me for years :S

But remember that interracial couples faced the same prejudice 40 years ago. We're in the year 2014. It's not the unforgivable sin and we need to stop treating like it is. I want to see more Christian talk against infidelity and divorce (which actually ruins the concept of marriage), I want Christians to speak out against abuse, and rape. You know the actual ungodly acts.

Unless the LGBTQA are committing these acts..it's not worth your time to really talk about. Let's get ahead of the curve.

Move towards the future and not make the same mistake our predecessors made 40 years ago.

This is a pipebomb. No it's not I just want to feel like CM Punk.

/micdrop
 

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:25 pm
Citing The Complete Biblical Library: Hebrew - English Dictionary: "The word is primarily used of things, persons, or practices that are either ritually or morally offensive to the Lord."

Ok so if you gloss over Leviticus, how do you deal with Romans 1:26-27?

"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due"

Paul considered it a vile passion (speaking for God), and that it was going against nature. He considered it something shameful and and an error. Remember that Peter called Paul's writing Scripture (2 Peter 3:16).

Or 1 Corinthians 6:9-11?


Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


תּעבה תּועבה
tô‛êbah tô‛êbah
to-ay-baw', to-ay-baw'
Feminine active participle of H8581; properly something disgusting (morally), that is, (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol

Source

Do we get define what love is based on what we feel or is it define to us by the origin of love? Let us say it is going against God's design for a relationship, just for the sake of argument. Would it be loving - or would it be rebellion?

To'evah is also used for lying, for shedding innocent blood, those who justify wickedness (Proverbs 6:16-19, Proverbs 17:15). Does it just make someone who does them ritualistically unclean like eating shellfish? I was born with a with a natural inclination to lie. Why is it wrong for me to lie? After all - God made me this way.

There's quite a few problems with comparing sexuality to skin-color. To start with, one is immutable. The other is not. One is a physical characteristic - the other is not. It is in its essence a category mistake. That people can change their sexual orientation shows it is not fixed. There are plenty of people does not feel homosexual attraction any longer, and consider themselves heterosexual. I've met a few, and there are a few here in the guild, even in this thread. It goes to show that Paul was not making things up when he was saying such were some of you. Why did Paul mention homosexuality along side idolaters, thieves, liars, adulterers if it was not considered a sin on par with these?

I want to say also that I believe the degree of punishment in Leviticus shows the seriousness of the crime committed. You were not stoned for eating shellfish, or pork. Considered unclean (could be considered clean again; see bodily emissions as an example), but not removed from the people. Some things that merited death penalty in Leviticus: Practicing divination or seeking omens, blaspheming the name of the LORD, not keeping the Sabbath day, having sex with an animal, adultery and a man who lies with another man as if with a woman.  
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:24 pm
Garland-Green
Citing The Complete Biblical Library: Hebrew - English Dictionary: "The word is primarily used of things, persons, or practices that are either ritually or morally offensive to the Lord."

Ok so if you gloss over Leviticus, how do you deal with Romans 1:26-27?

"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due"

Paul considered it a vile passion (speaking for God), and that it was going against nature. He considered it something shameful and and an error. Remember that Peter called Paul's writing Scripture (2 Peter 3:16).

Or 1 Corinthians 6:9-11?


Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


תּעבה תּועבה
tô‛êbah tô‛êbah
to-ay-baw', to-ay-baw'
Feminine active participle of H8581; properly something disgusting (morally), that is, (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol

Source

Do we get define what love is based on what we feel or is it define to us by the origin of love? Let us say it is going against God's design for a relationship, just for the sake of argument. Would it be loving - or would it be rebellion?

To'evah is also used for lying, for shedding innocent blood, those who justify wickedness (Proverbs 6:16-19, Proverbs 17:15). Does it just make someone who does them ritualistically unclean like eating shellfish? I was born with a with a natural inclination to lie. Why is it wrong for me to lie? After all - God made me this way.

There's quite a few problems with comparing sexuality to skin-color. To start with, one is immutable. The other is not. One is a physical characteristic - the other is not. It is in its essence a category mistake. That people can change their sexual orientation shows it is not fixed. There are plenty of people does not feel homosexual attraction any longer, and consider themselves heterosexual. I've met a few, and there are a few here in the guild, even in this thread. It goes to show that Paul was not making things up when he was saying such were some of you. Why did Paul mention homosexuality along side idolaters, thieves, liars, adulterers if it was not considered a sin on par with these?

I want to say also that I believe the degree of punishment in Leviticus shows the seriousness of the crime committed. You were not stoned for eating shellfish, or pork. Considered unclean (could be considered clean again; see bodily emissions as an example), but not removed from the people. Some things that merited death penalty in Leviticus: Practicing divination or seeking omens, blaspheming the name of the LORD, not keeping the Sabbath day, having sex with an animal, adultery and a man who lies with another man as if with a woman.



Romans 1:26-27 would be referring to the Bacchae. The Bacchae were a group of (often times) female worshipers of Bacchus. They would go into a stupor almost and well...screwed everything that lived. They're the Roman equivalent to maenads.

As far as Corinthians is concerned...is this where the pun arsenkitios comes into place? If so..um if Paul were trying to be serious he wouldn't have used a pun fusing bed and man together. Not to mention he had a problem with marriage and more importantly pedestry. (which is the ancient equivelant to egregophilia.)

As far as love is concerned so long there is no rape nor abuse in a relationship then it is love and it is consensual. If there is abuse (physical, sexual, psychological, emotional, mental) or rape or both then I don't consider it to be love. If there is even a hint of a guilt trip then it's not love.

Actually no there isn't a problem with comparing skin color to sexuality. They're things that you biologically can't change. You can't change the color of the skin, and you can't change the wiring of the brain. (To do so is very dangerous and can cause serious damage to the psyche.) Not to mention that if you try to claim to be straight when you're really bi or lesbian, or gay, or any of the other sexualities then you're a liar. God doesn't make mistakes as Christians have repeatedly said to me..

I honestly believe that he intended for everyone to come out as they are. I will firmly believe until my deathbed that God did create the LGBTQA community as they were and they are God's children. And nothing will change it.

I was never a Biblian. I might not call myself a Christian but I've always believed and did things as Christ did. Even though he was sinless, Jesus never condemned the sinners or supposed sinners. He condemned those who were in league with the Pharisees./align]
 

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:32 pm
Astra Green
Garland-Green
Citing The Complete Biblical Library: Hebrew - English Dictionary: "The word is primarily used of things, persons, or practices that are either ritually or morally offensive to the Lord."

Ok so if you gloss over Leviticus, how do you deal with Romans 1:26-27?

"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due"

Paul considered it a vile passion (speaking for God), and that it was going against nature. He considered it something shameful and and an error. Remember that Peter called Paul's writing Scripture (2 Peter 3:16).

Or 1 Corinthians 6:9-11?


Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


תּעבה תּועבה
tô‛êbah tô‛êbah
to-ay-baw', to-ay-baw'
Feminine active participle of H8581; properly something disgusting (morally), that is, (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol

Source

Do we get define what love is based on what we feel or is it define to us by the origin of love? Let us say it is going against God's design for a relationship, just for the sake of argument. Would it be loving - or would it be rebellion?

To'evah is also used for lying, for shedding innocent blood, those who justify wickedness (Proverbs 6:16-19, Proverbs 17:15). Does it just make someone who does them ritualistically unclean like eating shellfish? I was born with a with a natural inclination to lie. Why is it wrong for me to lie? After all - God made me this way.

There's quite a few problems with comparing sexuality to skin-color. To start with, one is immutable. The other is not. One is a physical characteristic - the other is not. It is in its essence a category mistake. That people can change their sexual orientation shows it is not fixed. There are plenty of people does not feel homosexual attraction any longer, and consider themselves heterosexual. I've met a few, and there are a few here in the guild, even in this thread. It goes to show that Paul was not making things up when he was saying such were some of you. Why did Paul mention homosexuality along side idolaters, thieves, liars, adulterers if it was not considered a sin on par with these?

I want to say also that I believe the degree of punishment in Leviticus shows the seriousness of the crime committed. You were not stoned for eating shellfish, or pork. Considered unclean (could be considered clean again; see bodily emissions as an example), but not removed from the people. Some things that merited death penalty in Leviticus: Practicing divination or seeking omens, blaspheming the name of the LORD, not keeping the Sabbath day, having sex with an animal, adultery and a man who lies with another man as if with a woman.



Romans 1:26-27 would be referring to the Bacchae. The Bacchae were a group of (often times) female worshipers of Bacchus. They would go into a stupor almost and well...screwed everything that lived. They're the Roman equivalent to maenads.

As far as Corinthians is concerned...is this where the pun arsenkitios comes into place? If so..um if Paul were trying to be serious he wouldn't have used a pun fusing bed and man together. Not to mention he had a problem with marriage and more importantly pedestry. (which is the ancient equivelant to egregophilia.)

As far as love is concerned so long there is no rape nor abuse in a relationship then it is love and it is consensual. If there is abuse (physical, sexual, psychological, emotional, mental) or rape or both then I don't consider it to be love. If there is even a hint of a guilt trip then it's not love.

Actually no there isn't a problem with comparing skin color to sexuality. They're things that you biologically can't change. You can't change the color of the skin, and you can't change the wiring of the brain. (To do so is very dangerous and can cause serious damage to the psyche.) Not to mention that if you try to claim to be straight when you're really bi or lesbian, or gay, or any of the other sexualities then you're a liar. God doesn't make mistakes as Christians have repeatedly said to me..

I honestly believe that he intended for everyone to come out as they are. I will firmly believe until my deathbed that God did create the LGBTQA community as they were and they are God's children. And nothing will change it.

I was never a Biblian. I might not call myself a Christian but I've always believed and did things as Christ did. Even though he was sinless, Jesus never condemned the sinners or supposed sinners. He condemned those who were in league with the Pharisees./align]

Jesus himself believed in the Scriptures. He quoted even Leviticus (Matthew 15:4). People now a days tend to think of Jesus as some sort of long haired hippie who wouldn't harm a fly. He was far from that. Though he never condemned anyone since his mission was of a different sort - He did point out sin. He even told people to go and sin no more (John 8:11), and to repent because the Kingdom had drawn near. One day he is going to return as someone who will judge the living and the dead. To be forgiven you have to believe that there is such a thing as sin. Am I correct in making this connection?

Do you believe that Jesus will create a new Earth? That the former things will pass away? Why is it necessary for us to have a new nature, to be born again, a new man - if God intends everyone to be as they are? Doesn't the fact that we need a new heart from God attest to the fact that we are not created perfect? If we through some misconception we have don't tell someone they are sinning are we doing them a favor?

Romans 15:4
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.

Believing in Jesus entails a few things. It entails that you acknowledge that you are a sinner, it entails also believing that other people are sinners. If we don't then there is no need for the gospel. Ultimately this is a gospel issue. If we chose to say homosexuality is not a sin - then why not lying? How about drunkenness? They are mentioned in the same books of the Bible - in the same terminology. The same arguments can be used in favor of these. I am not debating this with you to change your mind - you have said nothing can change your mind about it. I don't really think anything I am going to say will convince you. I am writing this so those who read this, who can change their mind has the option to do so.

You can change the wiring of the brain. Neuro-pathways. It is not dangerous. You do it every time you learn something new. Would not God also be able to change the brain (perhaps on a larger scale) since He is the one who made it?

Arsenokoites is likely to come from the Septuagint. It is what Paul would have available to him in Greek. It would also have been natural for him to use when speaking to the Corinthians. The word arsenokoites almost appears in the Septuagint, in Leviticus 20:13: hos an koimethe meta arsenos koiten gunaikos. Arsenokoites is made up of two words. Arseno (male) and Koites (where we have our word coitus from - sleep sexually with).  
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:34 pm
Just thought I would post more of Romans 1 in response to Astra's claim that Paul was addressing Bacchae, worshipers of Bacchus.

Romans 1:18-32
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

These are individuals who instead of worshiping the Creator worships the created. Birds, animals and images made to look like mortal human-beings. To say that this was only Bacchae I feel is a strained interpretation of the text.
We also see in the text that both those who worshiped animals and the images of human-beings are given over by God to shameful lusts. So this can't be just addressing Bacchae. We see from the text that is is not orgies that are being reproved, or having sex with strangers, but abandoning natural relations. "The men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another." The text here says natural relation is men having relations with women, and women having relations with men. The following verse say they go on to commit shameful acts, and it is natural here to think of sexual acts, since the previous verse spoke of them burning with lust for one another.  

Garland-Green

Friendly Gaian


Chxsa

Bright Bunny

PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:51 pm
iuvenis
Wow, everyone has very solid arguments! It's pleasing to read everything as it goes on.
In my opinion, homossexuality is a sin, but we can't disrespect them because we're sinners as well.
And about christian homossexuals: I don't agree with this because after accepting Jesus in our lives, we're supposed to avoid any kind of sin and to follow his teachings...


I agree with this completely. Homosexuality is indeed a sin. But saying hateful things towards someone who is homosexual will probably not draw them to Christ. We should be firm and loving, telling them the truth, but not in a way that would make Jesus unhappy, such as holding up hateful picket signs.  
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